• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Bible and the Quaran - same god

Laila

Active Member
Muslims believe in the Torah and the Bible. Muhammed's (SAWS) message was the same as Abraham's (AS). Muslims do not believe in a new or different religion. The last revelation is a return to worship ONE GOD. The true message of God is always the same. The Quran is the last and complete book from the people of the book.
 
Laila said:
Where does it say in the Old Testament that God has a son?

Here.

Isaiah 7:14, “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

Isaiah 9:6, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

Micah 5:2, “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Zechariah 9:9, “Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”

Psalm 22:16-18, “Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”

also but it is too long to post, Isaiah 53:3-7
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
DiscipleOfChrist said:
Here.

Isaiah 7:14, “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

Isaiah 9:6, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

Micah 5:2, “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Zechariah 9:9, “Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”

Psalm 22:16-18, “Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”

also but it is too long to post, Isaiah 53:3-7

christians may interpret it that way....

Judaism would not....

i'll never understand why other religions will tell you how to interpret your own scripture:rolleyes:
 
jewscout said:
christians may interpret it that way....

Judaism would not....

i'll never understand why other religions will tell you how to interpret your own scripture:rolleyes:


Tell me how you interpret those? All of those tell about the coming of Jesus Christ, every detail came true from Him.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
from what i know the text of Isaiah 9:6, Micah and Zechariah are talking about the coming of moshiach, the messiah. However, Judaism does not believe that jesus is the messiah as he did not fulfill the role of messiah as defined, traditionally, in Judaism...therefore, from a jewish perspective, because it is talking about the Moshiach does not mean it is talking about Jesus.

the verse from psalms is about the torture the psalmist, David as tradition holds, and the evils done to him and later in this particular psalm he cries out to G-d to save him from his enemies

and, of course...Isaiah 53....Rashi and most modern commentary you find published today hold that, in fact, this is talking about the Nation of Israel (bnei Yisrael) as a whole...of course other sources say this is another reference to Moshiach, this time the figure of the Moshiach ben Yosef who will be a military leader but will suffer (like Joseph did in slavery in Egypt) before the coming of Moshiach ben David.

Rav Avraham Yitzchak HaKohen Kook has some very interesting views on the figure and role of these 2 Messianic figures in relation to the Nation of Israel (not the State, but rather the Jewish people) but that's for another discussion.

remember, Judaism doesn't believe that Jesus was the Moshiach, messiah, so even if the scripture is of a messianic nature it does not equal to being about Jesus...from a jewish perspective.

of course, as a christian...who else are you going to see when you read this stuff? Bob Dylan?;)

it's just a matter of different viewpoints....apples and oranges.
 

writer

Active Member
73 You dismiss Islam as incorrect without providing a SHRED of substansial evidence to back it up.
To the contrary: my posts 3 and 55 stated that it contradicts the Bible.
My 55 and 58 point out that the Koran and Islam followed the Bible by 2,100 to 1,000 years and that therefore they are it's "source," as a kind of poor-quality plagiarism and deviation from the Bible.
I'd say that's not only "substantial;" it's obvious. 2,100 to 1,000 years precedence as source material. U're not of the opinion that 2 millenia and 1 millenium are "substantial," in the Near-east?

both Bible and Qur'an ARE NOT PROOF OF ANYTHING except that there were some people long ago who liked to tell stories.
I'd haf 2 say the same thing about your posts, spacemonkey.
But anyway: said stories are what post 1's talking about

because these writings are old doesn't mean they are infallible.
The Bible's inerrant cuz it's inerrant. Not cuz it's old

72 Judaism says G-d has no form
To the contrary of Judaism, then, Moses in the Torah wrote "God created man in His image"

from our perspective G-d does not become flesh
From Moses', Abraham's, Jacob's (Israel's), Isaiah's, and Micah's perspective: He did.
Genesis 18; 32; Isaiah 7; 9; Micah 5:2

[Sent and Sender are inseparable]...is a christian teaching. Not jewish.
To the contrary: Moses, Isaiah, Zechariah, Micah, and the author of Judges (Samuel, i believe) were Jewish

i do not pray to any saint, nor angel, nor half man-half deity being
Congratulations.
Neither do i

i pray only to HaShem, the One G-d.
Me 2

if you are trying to imply that the verses are meant to be literal, judaism does not believe that.
If by "not literal," dear jewscout, u mean to say that Moses didn't mean what he wrote: i haf to disagree. Maybe no one's posts here r literal.
Iz that whut u mean?

G-d does not become flesh
such is contrary to the nature of G-d's infinity.
I'm not able to c why. Maybe u could try to explain that to me.
(It also sounds Moslem.)
To borrow a thought from your post 64, and from Genesis 3:8-10,
this's God seeking you
 

alexander garcia

Active Member
Hi, why do you call out the word god for all your deities? But to give my opinion No they are not the same. They have most things different, from the name to everything. Most Christians have three deities not one no matter how they want to say three are one. The truth is that with eyes they do not see. If Allah be the same why do you hate your brothers? And if you don't then you should be telling the world that hate is not the way!
 

writer

Active Member
My 55 and 58 point out that the Koran and Islam followed the Bible by 2,100 to 1,000 years and that therefore IT is THEIR "source," as a kind of poor-quality plagiarism and deviation from the Bible...

sorry


 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
DiscipleOfChrist said:
Here.

Isaiah 7:14, “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

Immanuel? Not Jesus? How would this prove they were talking about jesus?


DiscipleOfChrist said:
Isaiah 9:6, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
Does this mean Mary is your gods wife? This sounds like a passage from paganism since gods had sons with mortals which would put order to the world.


DiscipleOfChrist said:
Micah 5:2, “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
This might be refering to david, saul, solomon, and from my recollection.... or even the current political ruler of Israel. jesus never ruled over israel since he was busy teaching in the temple and also had a very private life prior to his 33rd birthday as they say. How can you rule a place if no one knew about you except your close friends. Rome did not even recognized jesus..... until the 3rd century through constantines' mother.
[/quote]



DiscipleOfChrist said:
Psalm 22:16-18, “Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”

This is the normal way of how the romans threated their prisoners.... Why is this proof of a son of your god?
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
writer said:
My 55 and 58 point out that the Koran and Islam followed the Bible by 2,100 to 1,000 years and that therefore IT is THEIR "source," as a kind of poor-quality plagiarism and deviation from the Bible...

sorry



[/quote]
Or it could also mean that the awareness that decided to inspire the bible found a another race to convey its message and thus made corrections that would ensure that both sides would find a way to argue, wage war..etc ... On both ocassions, it showed that it wanted control hence to follow its rules no matter the cost to humanity is that is way it says self sacrifice is essential.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
writer said:
72 Judaism says G-d has no form
To the contrary of Judaism, then, Moses in the Torah wrote "God created man in His image"
on the contrary Moses also tells them that the Israelites saw no form at Sinai when G-d appeared to them (Deut. 4:15)


from our perspective G-d does not become flesh
From Moses', Abraham's, Jacob's (Israel's), Isaiah's, and Micah's perspective: He did.
Genesis 18; 32; Isaiah 7; 9; Micah 5:2
then what does He look like? surely you can tell me what a being of flesh and blood looks like.


[Sent and Sender are inseparable]...is a christian teaching. Not jewish.
To the contrary: Moses, Isaiah, Zechariah, Micah, and the author of Judges (Samuel, i believe) were Jewish
no, you take jewish scripture, place christian docterine onto it, and tell me an apple is an orange...


if you are trying to imply that the verses are meant to be literal, judaism does not believe that.
If by "not literal," dear jewscout, u mean to say that Moses didn't mean what he wrote: i haf to disagree. Maybe no one's posts here r literal.
Iz that whut u mean?
what i mean is that Judaism holds that the Torah is written in the language of man so that man can understand and connect with it...it is written for the finite so that we might glean from the infinite

G-d does not become flesh
such is contrary to the nature of G-d's infinity.
I'm not able to c why. Maybe u could try to explain that to me.
(It also sounds Moslem.)
Judaism believes G-d is not in parts, can not be broken down into parts, can not be compared to anything...He is One (Deut. 6:4), and infinite being. If He were to be flesh i could then break Him down into parts, thus negating His Oneness. If He were flesh i could compare Him to something (Pslam 89:6) that He looks like something, tho no form has been seen (Deut. 4:12)...surely in all this time, and all these encouters, we would know what He looked like if He had a form.

yes it sounds Muslim because, in that respect, Judaism and the Torah are very similar to Islam and Quran...Islam and Judaism in their views on the nature of G-d are very similar...more so than these 2 faiths compared to Christianity.
 

writer

Active Member
92 on the contrary Moses also tells them that the Israelites saw no form at Sinai when G-d appeared to them (Deut. 4:15)
Deut 4:15-16's not contrary to Gen 1:26-27.
Cuz 15-16 refers to the occasion and audience it specifically refers to: "when Jehovah spoke to you at Horeb."
About the same time of Exodus 33:18-23. "Moses said, Please show me Your glory. But Jehovah said, You can't see My face, for no man shall see Me and live. Here, there's a place by Me, and you shall stand upon the rock. And while My glory passes by, I'll put you in a cleft of the rock, and I'll cover you with My hand, and you'll see My back; but My face shall not be seen." Christ, Jesus, is God's "diffuser." The God-Man (Micah 5:2; Isa 7:10-9:7). He's also the "cleft" one, the real cleft rock.
Paul, who experienced Him, wrote to the Corinthians: "To illuminate the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 C 4:6).
2ndly; cuz none of us makes Christ (Deut 4:16)

you take jewish scripture, place christian docterine onto it, and tell me an apple is an orange
To the contrary: post 83 quoted Micah. Post 71 quoted Zechariah and Isaiah and cited Moses. Including Ex 3:2, 6 "the Angel of Jehovah appeared to Moses in a flame of fire in a thornbush...He said, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God." This also is a picture of Incarnation, and resurrection: the Triune God (cf Matthew 22:32).
And Samuel (Judges 13:21-22) "Then Manoah knew that He was the Angel [the Sent One] of Jehovah. And Manoah said to his wife: we've seen God."
thanks
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
you take jewish scripture, place christian docterine onto it, and tell me an apple is an orange
To the contrary:

no, you are. You go on the assumption that this jesus fellow is some how G-d, or the incarnation of G-d, or something and look for passages in Hebrew scripture to back this up.

Deut 4:15-16's not contrary to Gen 1:26-27.
Cuz 15-16 refers to the occasion and audience it specifically refers to: "when Jehovah spoke to you at Horeb."

About the same time of Exodus 33:18-23. "Moses said, Please show me Your glory. But Jehovah said, You can't see My face, for no man shall see Me and live. Here, there's a place by Me, and you shall stand upon the rock. And while My glory passes by, I'll put you in a cleft of the rock, and I'll cover you with My hand, and you'll see My back; but My face shall not be seen." Christ, Jesus, is God's "diffuser." The God-Man (Micah 5:2; Isa 7:10-9:7). He's also the "cleft" one, the real cleft rock.
Paul, who experienced Him, wrote to the Corinthians: "To illuminate the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 C 4:6).
2ndly; cuz none of us makes Christ (Deut 4:16

above you take jewish scripture, input what appear to be your views on christianity and then quote christisn scripture to support it. my point exactly.

of course, as a christian, i can see where you could see this...i, however, do not from where i'm sitting.
 

writer

Active Member
94 no,
To the contrary: Zech 2:8-10; Genesis 18:1, 13, 22, 26, 33; 32:22-31; 48:15-16; Exodus 3:2, 4, 6-7, 12-15; 12:12, 23; 14:19; Judges 13:17-22; Daniel 3:25; Micah 5:2;
mention not the name "Jesus."
Even if there were no NT in existence yet; Jehovah being the Angel of Jehovah, and Jehovah sending Jehovah, r in the (OT) Scripture

you take jewish scripture, input what appear to be your views on christianity and then quote christisn scripture to support it. my point exactly.
Then we have the same point: 55 "The NT's fulfillment of the OT, as far as writings go. And of course duz not contradict it"

92 what does He look like? surely you can tell me what a being of flesh and blood looks like.
A man. Gen 18:1-2; 32:24-30; Dan 3:25; Isa 7:14; 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:14.
And man bears His likeness. Gen 1:26-27

Torah is written in the language of man so that man can understand and connect with it...it is written for the finite so that we might glean from the infinite
This's xactly God's point and plan. And the point of His OT and N: To become man that man might glean Him. That's my point. It's not about religion

believes G-d is not in parts, can not be broken down into parts
Likewise

can not be compared to anything. If He were flesh i could compare Him to something
HE "compares" you to HIM. He created us that way.
"God said, Let'S make man in Our image, according to Our likeness."
I din't write that. Moses did

He is One (Deut. 6:4), and infinite being
Amen 'n amen

If He were to be flesh i could then break Him down into parts,
He's like broken bread. At the same time: indissoluble 'n unbreakable. So essentially no. If you "break Him down;" He'll resurrect (cf Isa 53:10-11; Dan 9:26; 7:13-14; Zech 13:6; 14:3-4; cf Ezek 37:1-28).

Take care
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
you take jewish scripture, input what appear to be your views on christianity and then quote christisn scripture to support it. my point exactly.
Then we have the same point: 55 "The NT's fulfillment of the OT, as far as writings go. And of course duz not contradict it"

*groan*
no, YOU think there is no contradiction. Judaism says there is. Your insistance that Jesus is or an angel is the same as G-d is in contradiction to Judaism's fundamental understanding of the message of Tanach.

when the Torah says "An angel of HaShem" it does not mean "HaShem". There are men, angels and then G-d...they are not the same.

To become man that man might glean Him
G-d is not man (Numbers 23:19)

HE "compares" you to HIM. He created us that way.
then are you going to say that the book of Psalms is in contradiction to the rest of scripture when it says that G-d can not be compared or likened to anything in Heaven or on earth? (psalms 89:6)

on that note i think i will depart this debate as it has gone totally off topic
 

writer

Active Member
96 no, YOU think there is no contradiction.
No. Dear sir. There's none. At least none you've shown

Judaism says there is.
I'm, 'n i've been, talkin about the Law, Prophets, 'n Writings. The Jewish Scriptures.
Which r different than "Judaism." Your Judaism's one thing. They're another

Your insistance that Jesus is or an angel is the same as G-d is in contradiction to Judaism's fundamental understanding of the message of Tanach. when the Torah says "An angel of HaShem" it does not mean "HaShem".
To the contrary: a) the fundamental message of the Tanach is God relating, 'n wantin to relate, to man. With which HaShem becomin man's fully consonant.
b) Jesus of Nazareth ("HaShem's Salvation" of Nazareth) isn't mentioned by name in the Tanach.
c) "Manoah knew that He was the Angel of Jehovah. Manoah said to his wife: we've seen God"

There are men, angels and then G-d...they are not the same.
I'm not, nor have i been, speakin of angels. I'm speaking of the particular "Angel of Yahveh," in the Torah, Psalms, and Prophets; whom they equate with Yahveh; and Who is Yahveh embodied; the Son and Image of Yahveh; the Three in One, One in Three, Yahveh.

G-d is not man (Numbers 23:19)
Not in Numbers 23:19.
God Became a man via conception with David's descendant's human egg in Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:38, 43; John 1:14.
Isaiah 7:10-9:7; Micah 5:2

are you going to say that the book of Psalms is in contradiction to the rest of scripture when it says that G-d can not be compared or likened to anything in Heaven or on earth? (psalms 89:6)
"For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? [who] among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?" contradicts no Scripture.
God's not unknowable. On the contrary: He's knowable, Personally, and wants to be knowable to us. Becuz He created u 'n i in His image.
This Psalm essentially means no one's as great and as wonderful as Him. God. Jah.
Which 's undeniable. And of course which doesn't mean He Himself, thru His Son, didn't become flesh. Permanently.
Thanks
Take care
 

Jerrell

Active Member
ProfLogic said:
The interesting part is that the god came from abraham.... Does this mean abraham was confused or possibly 2 abrahams or abram......

Abraham had two Children.

Ishmel- Whose Children became Muslims (Arabs)

Issac- Whose Children became the Jews

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid (Haggar, an Egpytian) , the other by a freewoman (Sarah, Abraham's Wife from Ur)). 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

We can either serve God throughby Promise, that is Jesus

Or we can try and Serve God by the Flesh, By the Law (Either Jewish or Moslem)
-which will not redeem mankind.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ac 13:39 And by him(Jesus) all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.[/FONT]
 

Jerrell

Active Member
Please yall don't get into a Argument about Jesus being God, a Jew will be a Jew they didn't believe it then, and they still don't now. However if they wish to beleive they can, For Prophecy did say, he shall be called Immanuel, "God with Us."
 

Jerrell

Active Member
Many people will deny Scripture to continue to believe in Tradition.
Collosians 2:[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Genesis 18:1-8 1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him ( The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost): and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground.

-Notice the Verse says thay only the LORD appeared, and not angels with him, you can't add tot he scripture just to deny fact.
[/FONT]
 
Top