144,000?

WitnessofJah · Dec 4, 2004

precept said:
Making preposterous claims re what you try to make the scriptures say; does not make it so! The scriptures are not of "private interpretation" 2 Peter 1:20
Unless you can support your presumptions with the text of scripture, you ought not to state as fact the fictious thinking of an over active mind.

What proposterous claims have I made? Most of your arguments are not even found in the Bible! All the things I have I have said in this entire forum are only found in the Bible - and in nothing else. The book of Revelation is a highly symbolic book - and requires interpretation, and correct interpretation at that. There is no "private interpretation" at all on our part - the Bible does the interpreting for us - the way it is supposed to be.

Your interpretations have not been very convincing either and are contradictory to the Bible - to be totally honest.

Jesus is not the Mediator of as you put it...a group called "spiritual Israelites".
The bible clearly teaches that "Jesus is the Mediator between God and men". 1 Timothy 2:5 ...the Mediator between God and "all men"---all of humanity!

Jesus is the mediator between God and men - thanks for agreeing with me. But what kind of men does Jesus mediate with? Any person or people who actually follow him? Your insertion of "all of humanity" is not the in scripture you quoted - sorry. So who does Jesus mediate over?

Ephesians 1:22: "He also subjected all things under his feet, and made him head over all things to the congregation".

Does Jesus accept anybody or people who actually follow him?

Luke 9:23: "Then he went on to say to all: "If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake day after day and follow me continually."

Therefore, we can easily conclude by the fine direction of the Bible that when Revelation refer's to a "New Jerusalem" and "Isrealites", it is referring to people who are willing to follow him - and not all of mankind. Therefore, Jesus is the head of the Christian congregation (read above verses) and therefore, the mediator between the "Spiritual Israelites" and God. His invitation is of course open to all of mankind, but whether they choose to follow him or not, is totally in their own hands.

That your group would think to redefine Jesus' role in His stated mission to reconcile all of humanity to Himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19 is directly usurping the perogative of God.

Jesus' invitation is open to anybody on this planet. Luke 9:23: "Then he went on to say to all: "If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake day after day and follow me continually." However, when you look around the world, does it honestly look like the whole world is following his footsteps? No. Jesus wil not bless people people who do wicked things - however, the invitation is still open to all to follow him and become righteous. John 7:37, 38 says: "Now on the last day, the great day of the festival, Jesus was standing up and he cried out, saying: "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. He that puts faith in me, just as the Scripture has said, Out from his inmost part streams of living water will flow."

WitnessofJah · Dec 4, 2004

precept said:
Your above exclusion of Jews from your "Spiritual Israelites" congregation; is very short-sighted. Your group seem to have forgotten that though the Jewish leadership inspired the killing of Jesus; yet this was not the act of the nation of the Jews as a whole.

Go back to the scriptures for the true facts! Jesus' twelve disciples were Jews. Did they kill Christ?

Judas was an Apostle who betrayed Jesus which lead to his death.

Also, you are right that there were pockets of people who still followed Jesus in Israel - but the majority were warped and even the high Priests of the temple were corrupt - see for yourself in the Bible. Why do you think God allowed Isreal to get destroyed by the Babylonians, get taken captive, and put into exile? Why did God allow the Jerusalem temple to be destroyed twice over? Why did God allow his people to be conquered by the Romans? Why? Because he was no longer with them. Therefore, when Jesus came to Earth, the invitation was offered to all who wanted to become righteous, worship Jehovah God, and follow in the footsteps of his son, Christ Jesus.

Also, if the invitaton was only open to the literal Israelites, what would be the point of non-Jews following him, say 97.5% (guesstimate) of the world's population? I for one, am not Israeli, and you are probably not either. It does'nt make sense, does it? However, Jesus as asking everybody to follow him - and ethnic background is not what he has in mind. Jesus preached to many non-Jews while he was on earth. Why did he? Because his invitation was open to all. And this is convincing enough that the 144,000 are not literal Isrealites like you said - but spiritual Israelites.

Your theology makes a mockery of the gospel of salvation that teaches that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"....that teaches that "Jesus died for the sins of the world" .....that teaches that "there is neither Jew nor Greek....that we are all one in Christ Jesus"......as in no special group of so called "spiritual Israelites". ..."We are all ONE in Christ Jesus" Galatians 3:28

Thankyou for unwittingly agreeing with me. Did'nt you say before that the 144,000 are strictly Israelites only? Now you say that everybody (including non-Israelites) have the invitation to follow Christ? Which one is it?

Thanks,

WitnessofJah

precept · Dec 4, 2004

Judas was an Apostle who betrayed Jesus which lead to his death.

And Peter was a disciple who lied about ever knowing Jesus.

Who do you think committed the worse sin? There is no doubt that Peter committed the worse sin. Peter broke the ninth comandment.."Thou shalt not bear false witness". Judas did not break any commandment. He told the Jewish leadership that he could identify who Jesus was; and that he would do so by "kissing" the one identified as Jesus. There is no commandment against "identifying" anyone, no matter the circumstances.

Blaming Judas and or Jews for the death of Christ is an indication that you and your group are out of touch re the reason for God's dying for the sins of the world.

Why do you think God allowed Isreal to get destroyed by the Babylonians, get taken captive, and put into exile? Why did God allow the Jerusalem temple to be destroyed twice over? Why did God allow his people to be conquered by the Romans? Why? Because he was no longer with them. Therefore, when Jesus came to Earth, the invitation was offered to all who wanted to become righteous, worship Jehovah God, and follow in the footsteps of his son, Christ Jesus.

Again; your lack of understanding of the scriptures is painfully apparent. God was angry with the Israelites; so angry that He caused on one occasion thousands of poisonous snakes to run rampant throughout the camp of the Israelites, killing thousands of their numbers....He didn't abandon them then. He also caused, not only the Babylonians but the Philistines to capture His own very ARK; and keep His people in subjugation to a Pagan nation....He didn't abandon them then.....When He led them from Eygpt to Canaan, He caused them to wander around in the wilderness for forty years; when under normal circumstances they could have completed the journey to Canaan in well under a year.....He was the One who led them round and round in the wilderness...He didn't abandon them then either.

The fact of God's dealing with the Israelites as a nation of peoples; has little to do with His needing such a nation to represent Him. The Jews, descendants of Abraham were the means chosen by God; the means that God would use to introduce Salvation to those of humanity who desire to be saved. The "those of humanity " included all peoples, of all nations, and all equally chosen.

It is in this sense that God uses "Israel"; as in the original "Jacob" whom He gave the name "Israel"[one who fights with God and prevails]
Making all who truly accept God of whatever nationality as also "Israel". It is also in this sense that all the dealings with the nation "Israel" is also translated in similar fashion, with how He deals with everyone who embraces His truth, as in how He deals with literal Israel. And so for this reason "We are all Abraham's seed" if we accept Jesus in spirit and in truth. Because we are Abraham's seed we automatically are classified with the same classification as literal Israel; and with His dealing with us in similar "literal" yet "symbolic" fashion.

Literal Israel had twelve tribes; and whether or not any literal Jew served God or not; yet God has delineated each of the twelve tribes to earmark those who suffer for His truth as against those who truly follow Him;but who did not experience persecution and sufferring ending in death for His cause.

It is also for these reasons that He has also earmarked the New Jerusalem thus reflecting His continued identifying the literal Jerusalem as is now to the "New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband".

In other words; it is not in your province, or that of your group to Try to understand why God uses these comparisons; that of using literal Israel and all His literal relationships and transferring these literal relationships such as transferring their sacrificing literal lambs, to His having His Son as A LAMB IN SACRIFICE. And such as comparing the throne of David to the Throne also on which His Son "will sit". And also such as naming His Holy city which He has promised that He has gone to prepare--THE NEW JERUSALEM--naming His Holy city after the earthly city--Jerusalem, now divided between Jews who do not serve Him and Arabs who serve another god Allah. Despite the irrationality of it all, yet He still chooses to name His heavenly city after a city that has little or nothing to do with serving Him.

Since no one in humanity needs to query why God so behaves. Then equally none in humanity should try to put their spin on what they think God means when He uses His figures of speech in reference to Israel.

Also, if the invitaton was only open to the literal Israelites, what would be the point of non-Jews following him, say 97.5% (guesstimate) of the world's population? I for one, am not Israeli, and you are probably not either. It does'nt make sense, does it? However, Jesus as asking everybody to follow him - and ethnic background is not what he has in mind. Jesus preached to many non-Jews while he was on earth. Why did he? Because his invitation was open to all. And this is convincing enough that the 144,000 are not literal Isrealites like you said - but spiritual Israelites.

Despite the above; suffice it to say that not only is the invitation open to all; but this is the only reason for Jesus' coming to earth to die for the sins of humanity; and second guessing who the 144,000 of the saved of God are; is for him to decide; not the sinful humans He decides to so choose. The sinful humans are invited to the wedding ceremony by the bridegroom...they are in no position to select themselves as the bridegroom's guests.

Quote:
Your theology makes a mockery of the gospel of salvation that teaches that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"....that teaches that "Jesus died for the sins of the world" .....that teaches that "there is neither Jew nor Greek....that we are all one in Christ Jesus"......as in no special group of so called "spiritual Israelites". ..."We are all ONE in Christ Jesus" Galatians 3:28

Thankyou for unwittingly agreeing with me. Did'nt you say before that the 144,000 are strictly Israelites only? Now you say that everybody (including non-Israelites) have the invitation to follow Christ? Which one is it?

You may want to re-read my posts. They were designed to make you think, without your knowing what I thought. But suffice it to say; that the 144,000 saved persons would have passed through great tribulation, "washing their robes and making them white in the blood of the Lamb"....They would have been formed; as could be postulated by extrapolation using the question asked by those "souls under the Altar" of Jesus...."How long, O Lord, holy and true,dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" Jesus' answer reveals to whom he applies "white robes"..."And white robes were given unto everyone OF THEM; and it was said unto them, that they should rest for a little season UNTIL THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS ALSO AND THEIR BRETHREN, THAT SHOULD BE KILLED AS THEY WERE , should be fulfilled." Revelation 6:9-11.

Again; it is more than apparent to the true student of the word of God; that the only special consideration given to those who are saved from among humans, is only given to those who suffer for the cause of Christ. It does not take a leap of faith to postulate as to whom could possibly constitute the 144,000 of the saved persons...And since throughout the history of Christianity, beginning with the faithful Jewish martyrs who suffered to the death, immediately after Jesus returned to heaven; and which in the beginning were primarily Jews...And since after the Gentiles embraced Christianity; whcih now also caused them to be treated as a sect of Jewich dissenters who opposed the worship of Caesar as a god; and leading also to their deaths....And since, since then the Roman Catholic church also joined in persecuting to the death "heretics" or those who believed in Jesus; but not believe as they....and since even since then there are those who have died for the cause of Christ to this day...Then it stands to reason that the 144,000 served persons are only known to God; and are made up of every nationality and also made up of all the human races to ever embrace salvation according to truth as offered by God.

And who are these that are clothed in "White Robes"? Revelation 7:13

Answer:
"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the lamb." Revelation 7:14.

Again; that leaves your 8000 persons on the outside looking in.

precept

WitnessofJah · Dec 6, 2004

precept said:
And Peter was a disciple who lied about ever knowing Jesus.

precept said:
Who do you think committed the worse sin? There is no doubt that Peter committed the worse sin. Peter broke the ninth comandment.."Thou shalt not bear false witness". Judas did not break any commandment. He told the Jewish leadership that he could identify who Jesus was; and that he would do so by "kissing" the one identified as Jesus. There is no commandment against "identifying" anyone, no matter the circumstances.

And you are telling me that my understanding is painfully apparent?! If I am reading you post correctly, you are saying that the faithful Apostle peter who went on to be a great prophet after Jesus died and went on to write the books of 1 Peter, 2 Peter, and 3 Peter with direct inspiration from Jehovah God Himself was considerably worse than Judas Iscariot who was part of a the chain of events which lead to THE SON OF GOD'S death? What happened to Judas for his actions? Matthew 27:5 says: "So he threw the silver pieces into the temple and withdrew, and went off and hanged himself." Now compare to Judas to Peter again...you dont need to be a Bible scholar to figure it out. Nonetheless, you contradicted yourself again when you said (bearing in my about Judas):

Go back to the scriptures for the true facts! Jesus' twelve disciples were Jews. Did they kill Christ?

Subtract Judas, and you have 11 APOSTLES. It does'nt take a leap of faith to accept this. Apart from Judas Iscariot, the other 11 were outstanding and fine examples for others.

Blaming Judas and or Jews for the death of Christ is an indication that you and your group are out of touch re the reason for God's dying for the sins of the world.

I did'nt ultimately blame Judas or the Jews for Jesus' death - and never did. I was simply stating that they were part of definite large chain of events that lead to his death. Nonetheless, It is a FACT that Judas played his part in Jesus' death by betraying him (Matt 26:14,15) and is was a FACT that the majority of the Israelites wanted him dead - to deny this would be to deny the Bible.

Again; your lack of understanding of the scriptures is painfully apparent. God was angry with the Israelites; so angry that He caused on one occasion thousands of poisonous snakes to run rampant throughout the camp of the Israelites, killing thousands of their numbers....He didn't abandon them then. He also caused, not only the Babylonians but the Philistines to capture His own very ARK; and keep His people in subjugation to a Pagan nation....He didn't abandon them then.....When He led them from Eygpt to Canaan, He caused them to wander around in the wilderness for forty years; when under normal circumstances they could have completed the journey to Canaan in well under a year.....He was the One who led them round and round in the wilderness...He didn't abandon them then either.

I am VERY AWARE of the history of the Bible. I have read the books of Judges and Kings myself several times and am very familiar with the accounts, scenarios, and the ramifications behind it. The ONLY reason why God did not abandon his people during the times of the ancient Israelites when they abandoned him time and time again, was for two reasons: 1) He had made a promise to Abraham, and 2) Jesus Christ was still yet to be born. God WANTED to exterminate the Israelites for their wrongdoing, but because of his promises, he resisted it. Dont believe me? Read the account for yourself:

Genesis 32:7-13: Jehovah now said to Moses: Go, descend, because your people whom you led up out of the land of Egypt have acted ruinously. 8 They have turned aside in a hurry from the way I have commanded them to go. They have made a molten statue of a calf for themselves and keep bowing down to it and sacrificing to it and saying, This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt. 9 And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: I have looked at this people and here it is a stiff-necked people. 10 So now let me be, that my anger may blaze against them and I may exterminate them, and let me make you into a great nation.And Moses proceeded to soften the face of Jehovah his God and to say: Why, O Jehovah, should your anger blaze against your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a strong hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, With evil intent he brought them out in order to kill them among the mountains and to exterminate them from the surface of the ground? Turn from your burning anger and feel regret over the evil against your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac and Israel your servants, to whom you swore by yourself, in that you said to them, I shall multiply YOUR seed like the stars of the heavens, and all this land that I have designated I shall give to YOUR seed, that they may indeed take possession of it to time indefinite.

That is why when Jesus Christ came to earth and Gods will was now fulfilled, he concluded his covenant with Israel and welcomed everybody from different ethnic background to follow him, with laws not in stone, but in the heart. Again, dont believe me? :

Hebrews 8:8,9 says: For he does find fault with the people when he says: Look! There are days coming, says Jehovah, and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; Not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in [the] day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant, so that I stopped caring for them, says Jehovah.

The fact of God's dealing with the Israelites as a nation of peoples; has little to do with His needing such a nation to represent Him. The Jews, descendants of Abraham were the means chosen by God; the means that God would use to introduce Salvation to those of humanity who desire to be saved. The "those of humanity " included all peoples, of all nations, and all equally chosen.

I agree with you so if this were the case, why would he only take 144,000 literal Israelites instead of people from different ethnic backgrounds? You yourself said equally chosen so why would it be completely different for the 144,000? Your statements just dont add up.

WitnessofJah · Dec 6, 2004

It is in this sense that God uses "Israel"; as in the original "Jacob" whom He gave the name "Israel"[one who fights with God and prevails]

Click to expand...

Making all who truly accept God of whatever nationality as also "Israel". It is also in this sense that all the dealings with the nation "Israel" is also translated in similar fashion, with how He deals with everyone who embraces His truth, as in how He deals with literal Israel. And so for this reason "We are all Abraham's seed" if we accept Jesus in spirit and in truth. Because we are Abraham's seed we automatically are classified with the same classification as literal Israel; and with His dealing with us in similar "literal" yet "symbolic" fashion.

Bingo! That was a very good explanation for exactly why the 144,000 are not literal Israelites, but Spiritual Israelites. I think you subconsciously understand what I am saying, but I dont think it has clicked yet - you are finally agreeing with the Bible. Think about, if the New Jerusalem described in Revelation 21:2 is referred to as a place in heaven, which means it is not a literal Jerusalem, why would its inhabitants, the Spiritual Israelites be literal? Doesnt make sense, does it? Therefore, what you say makes perfect sense about the people today who worship him are being shepherded in a similar fashion to the way God did with the real Israelites in ancient times.

Literal Israel had twelve tribes; and whether or not any literal Jew served God or not; yet God has delineated each of the twelve tribes to earmark those who suffer for His truth

Click to expand...

as against those who truly follow Him;but who did not experience persecution and sufferring ending in death for His cause.

It is also for these reasons that He has also earmarked the New Jerusalem thus reflecting His continued identifying the literal Jerusalem as is now to the "New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband".

In other words; it is not in your province, or that of your group to Try to understand why God uses these comparisons; that of using literal Israel and all His literal relationships and transferring these literal relationships such as transferring their sacrificing literal lambs, to His having His Son as A LAMB IN SACRIFICE. And such as comparing the throne of David to the Throne also on which His Son "will sit". And also such as naming His Holy city which He has promised that He has gone to prepare--THE NEW JERUSALEM--naming His Holy city after the earthly city--Jerusalem, now divided between Jews who do not serve Him and Arabs who serve another god Allah. Despite the irrationality of it all, yet He still chooses to name His heavenly city after a city that has little or nothing to do with serving Him.

Since no one in humanity needs to query why God so behaves. Then equally none in humanity should try to put their spin on what they think God means when He uses His figures of speech in reference to Israel.

First of all, I appreciate the history and biblical summary, but there really is no need, because I am also very well aware of the facts it your interpretation of it that is the problem.

As far as Spin goes, what spin is that? As far I can remember, are you not the same person who said that the 144,000 had to be literal virgins, despite the very first of the 144,000, the apostles of Christ had families and wives of their own? Are you not the same person who said that what Judas Iscariot did was considerably less worse than the Apostle Peter? And you want to give me a lecture about spin? Reallycome on.

Despite the above; suffice it to say that not only is the invitation open to all; but this is the only reason for Jesus' coming to earth to die for the sins of humanity; and second guessing who the 144,000 of the saved of God are; is for him to decide; not the sinful humans He decides to so choose. The sinful humans are invited to the wedding ceremony by the bridegroom...they are in no position to select themselves as the bridegroom's guests.

We dont select who the 144,000 are and I never said we did. You are 100% right, it is only for Jesus to select the identity of the 144,000 - and nobody elses. The 8000 we have now were never selected the individuals just knew themselves that they had been chosen. The difference they say, is like being between a man and woman you just know. I for one, KNOW that I am not part of the 144,000 because the feeling is just not there. We dont have a selective system that is only reserved for Jesus Christ. What other religion do you know who talk about or have the 144,000 memberships among them? To my knowledge, none.

You may want to re-read my posts. They were designed to make you think, without your knowing what I thought. But suffice it to say; that the 144,000 saved persons would have passed through great tribulation, "washing their robes and making them white in the blood of the Lamb"....They would have been formed; as could be postulated by extrapolation using the question asked by those "souls under the Altar" of Jesus...."How long, O Lord, holy and true,dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" Jesus' answer reveals to whom he applies "white robes"..."And white robes were given unto everyone OF THEM; and it was said unto them, that they should rest for a little season UNTIL THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS ALSO AND THEIR BRETHREN, THAT SHOULD BE KILLED AS THEY WERE , should be fulfilled." Revelation 6:9-11.

Im not going to continually repeat myself over and over again about what the Great Tribulation is - so Ill leave you these questions to consider: Do you even know what the great tribulation is? If yes, can you tell me what your definition of it is? Also, I will leave a VERSES FROM THE BIBLE about the great tribulation. Matthew 24:21-22: For then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the worlds beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

Matthew 24:29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

So clearly, the Great Tribulation is a pre-Armageddon state of the earth. A few questions for you: Do you honestly think the above scriptures have been fulfilled yet, considering that the Bible says that is only going to happen once? The Great Tribulation is a phase that humans AND the 144,000 will go through in the future not just the 144,000 like you keep saying repetitively. Also, how do you explain these scriptures?

Then it stands to reason that the 144,000 served persons are only known to God; and are made up of every nationality and also made up of all the human races to ever embrace salvation according to truth as offered by God.

Thats not what you were saying earlier in this thread and you created a big fuss over it as well. You said that only literal Israelites made the 144,000, NOW you say that the 144,000 are made up of every nationality and also made up of all the human races to ever embrace salvation according to truth as offered by God. Which one is it?

Again; that leaves your 8000 persons on the outside looking in.

Since you believe in Jesus and refer to the Bible, I am guessing you are probably a member of mainstream Christianity (correct me if Im wrong). I find that quite ironic since mainstream Christianity believes that if you are good you go to heaven, and if you are bad you go to hell. This concept alone renders the concept of the 144,000 only going to heaven obsolete an argument you are really trying hard to argue about.

Thanks,

WitnessofJah

precept · Dec 8, 2004

WitnessofJah said:
Im not going to continually repeat myself over and over again about what the Great Tribulation is - so Ill leave you these questions to consider: Do you even know what the great tribulation is? If yes, can you tell me what your definition of it is?

To understand the meaning of word tribulation one must first put it in context with all its possible uses when Jesus and or His apostles use the word.

Jesus...."......For when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." Matthew 13:21.

Paul...."Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? " Romans 8:35

As seen in the above tribulation is used in reference to suffering at the hands of another; or the suffering due to extreme circumstances.

Also, I will leave a VERSES FROM THE BIBLE about the great tribulation. Matthew 24:21-22: For then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the worlds beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

Here again the word tribulation is used; but this time the word is used to suggest that this tribulation will be the worst as compared to others.
The fact that Jesus was speaking directly to His disciples; and the fact that this was His answer to a specific question will lay the stage in which great tribulation has to be interpreted.
Disciples said to Jesus..."Tell us when shall these things be"? The "things" to which they referred were specifically targeted to Jesus' statement that their magnificent Temple would be destroyed;and its destruction would be a signal that His coming was imminent.

As a direct answer to the disciples query....Jesus told them exactly when the Temple would be destroyed...."When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation[the Roman ruthless and invincible legions] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, then let him that be in Judea FLEE into the mountains ........BUT PRAY THAT YOUR FLIGHT be not in the winter nor on the sabbath day. chapter 24:15-20.
It is again clear that prior to the Roman legions destroying the temple there would be a time when the Christians would be given opportunity to flee Judea before the actual destruction occurred...because in verse 21 Jesus continued to describe the carnage that would occur when the temple was being destroyed as "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

History records the Roman general, Titus, as coming to Jerusalem and first beseiging the city, then inexplicably withdrawing his troops. Titus by surrounding the city of Jerusalem would hve violated an area outside the wall of the temple designated as holy ground.
His withdrawal was the sign for the followers of Christ to flee Judea.
History also records Titus as returning in 70 AD and completely laying waste to Jerusalem and completely destroying the temple. So utter was the destruction, that Josephus, the Jewish historian writes that the Roman legions mingled the blood of the priests with that of the sacrifices as they performed the ceremonies despite the carnage of the war. The blood of the Jews ran like a river down the temple steps; as so history records. Titus had strarved out the city before making his final assualt on a city in despair. History also records acts of cannibalism as the desparate Jews sought to satisfy hunger at any cost.
It was to this great tribulation that Jesus referred in prophecy. And it was also to ths specific great tribulation that Daniel the prophet had also previously referred in Daniel 9:26...."And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince[the Roman legions]that shall come SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY; and the end thereof shall be with a flood..."

The above prophecy is the said prophecy to which Jesus referred in His statement..."when ye therefore see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ..... The tribulation also that accompanied the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the temple is also the GREAT TRIBULATION to which Jesus referred....and is also the the prophecy of Daniel 9:26 that prophesied that the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed; and the end thereof shall be with a flood , with desolations until the end of the war".

The disciples though persecuted and though enduring persecution; yet did not see the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. But though in the main most if not all of Jesus' discip[les had been killed before AD 70; yet the prophecy still came to pass even if they did not see the abomination of desolation, stand in the holy place, as Jesus told them they would "see"..."when ye[the disciples]therefore see the abomination of desolations, stand in the holy place'...

The above makes clear that prophecy is independent of human involvement. Jesus answered a question that would imply that His answer was wholly directed at His disciples' question;...and yet He knew that they would not live to see its fulfillment....while in their minds they would have looked for the signs that Jesus had given them that would preceed His return.

precept

precept · Dec 8, 2004

Matthew 24:29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Jesus continued His telling His disciples what signs to "look for" that would preceed His coming. Interestingly enough; He also knew that like the signs of the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem that they would never live to see; He also knew that that they would die before the signs of the darkened sun; and a moon that ought to be shining but yet did not...He knew that they would never live to see those signs either.
Joel had also prophesied about these said signs Joel 2:10,11. " ...the sun and the moon shall be dark and the stars shall withdraw their shining"; As also Jesus in Matthew 24:29.... "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven; and the powers of heaven shall be shaken"...as also Jesus' disciple, the apostle Jiohn had also prophesied....Revelation 6: 12-13; "...and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...."

Both Joel 2:10-11; Matthew 24:29; and Revelation 6:12-13; all describe the same signs describing the "day of the Lord" with these same signs that just preceed His coming.

And while these same signs were the ones that followed the "great tribulation" of AD 70; yet none of these signs were to be fullfilled within any time frame based on human reckeoning; and yet these signs were told to the disciples as if the disciples would have been alive to witness their fulfillment...even though the fulfillment was years in the future for the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem and thousands of years in the future for the "sun to be darkened ,the moon to turn into blood; and the stars to fall from heaven ".

So clearly, the Great Tribulation is a pre-Armageddon state of the earth. A few questions for you: Do you honestly think the above scriptures have been fulfilled yet, considering that the Bible says that is only going to happen once? The Great Tribulation is a phase that humans AND the 144,000 will go through in the future not just the 144,000 like you keep saying repetitively. Also, how do you explain these scriptures?

You may or may not have recognized that the followers of Christ experienced "famine", "nakedness", "persecution","distress", "peril", death by the "sword", "the hangman", "the stake", "the axe", and death by crucifixion as well as by many other atrocious means. That the followers of Christ has gone through great tribulation is no secret. However, the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24; is not the "great tribulation" of Revelation chapter 7. The followers of Christ that experienced the "great tribulation" of AD 70 would have escaped the brutality of it all if they fled as Jesus commanded them to do. That was not "great tribulation" for His word; but "great tribulation" as in judgement as allowed by God at the hands of the Romans.
That the followers of Christ endured hardships is without doubt; but they did not suffer directly because of "His word"during the great tribulation of AD 70.

Those of Jesus' followers that endure hardship for his word also pass through "great tribulation" as already the scripture asserts....a "great tribulation" that includes persecution, torture and death....and these are the ones to whom white robes are given by Christ. And also these are they "who follow Him whereever He goes."

Thats not what you were saying earlier in this thread and you created a big fuss over it as well. You said that only literal Israelites made the 144,000, NOW you say that the 144,000 are made up of every nationality and also made up of all the human races to ever embrace salvation according to truth as offered by God. Which one is it?

It again stands to reason that the 144,000 saved persons are the saved of all the ages who suffered dearly for the cause of Christ... And are made up of Jewish and non-Jewish Christians alike....And hence the 144,000 saved persons are made up of literal Jews and Gentiles with both making up symbolic Israel, seed of Abraham.

Since you believe in Jesus and refer to the Bible, I am guessing you are probably a member of mainstream Christianity (correct me if Im wrong). I find that quite ironic since mainstream Christianity believes that if you are good you go to heaven, and if you are bad you go to hell. This concept alone renders the concept of the 144,000 only going to heaven obsolete an argument you are really trying hard to argue about.

I must surrender all my own opinions to the truth of scripture! It is clear to me that the saved of all humanity.."the 144,000", as well as "the great multitude which no man could number", all went to heaven at one and the same identical time. Paul described this occurrence in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18....Jesus had given the disciples, and by extension all His followers the signs of the "Temple being destroyed", followed by the sun and the moon "darkening" and the stars "falling from heaven". Many of the followers of Christ had now since died; and none of these signs as given by Jesus had been fulfilled. The Christians who were alive were concerned that should Jesus return their dead fellow Christians would miss out on returning with Him....Paul explained in 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18, that first "the dead in Christ will rise up from their graves"... because the living followers of Christ would not be preceeding the dead followers of Christ to heaven; but would be going alongside their resurrected fellow saints; as together they accompany their Lord back to the mansions He had gone to prepare in His Father house, and for His faithful followers.

Paul also describes the experience of the wicked at the return of Christ....In 2 Thessalonians 1:9...."In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord...." And in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 ...." And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord will comsume with the spirit of His mouth, AND SHALL DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING".

This picture is supported in Revelation 6:14-16, after the last of the signs Jesus mentioned in matthew 24:29 occurred..." And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places; and the kings of the earth and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."

The truth of scripture is most convincing; and "is sharper than a two-edged sword".

precept

WitnessofJah · Dec 9, 2004

Don't worry, I have not forgotten about this thread. Time constraints on my part have not permitted me to come on here. I will be posting when I get the chance though....please be patient.

WitnessofJah · Dec 10, 2004

precept said:
To understand the meaning of word tribulation one must first put it in context with all its possible uses when Jesus and or His apostles use the word.

precept said:
Jesus...."......For when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." Matthew 13:21.

Paul...."Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? " Romans 8:35

As seen in the above tribulation is used in reference to suffering at the hands of another; or the suffering due to extreme circumstances.

I am aware that there are several tribulations in the Bible but none are in the same context of the topic at hand and with references that involve the 144,000. Those are tribulations we are discussing a GREATER tribulation which is in the time of the END of this system of things that Jesus foretold and has never happened in the past.

Here again the word tribulation is used; but this time the word is used to suggest that this tribulation will be the worst as compared to others.

The fact that Jesus was speaking directly to His disciples; and the fact that this was His answer to a specific question will lay the stage in which great tribulation has to be interpreted.

Disciples said to Jesus..."Tell us when shall these things be"? The "things" to which they referred were specifically targeted to Jesus' statement that their magnificent Temple would be destroyed;and its destruction would be a signal that His coming was imminent.

You are correct when you imply that Titus was soon to desolate Jerusalem. In Matthew 24, Jesus was definitely referring to an imminent destruction, but did the prophecy end there? No. In Matthew 24, especially the latter parts, Jesus was referring both to an imminent and a future tribulation. Ill get to that soon

Matthew 24:3: While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things? The great tribulation of Jerusalem did have wars, pestilences and famine, but was there a second GREATER fulfillment that he was referring to and something much more grander and meaningful that also happened to be in harmony with the scriptures of Revelation, a book about the future? Lets reading the following scriptures in Matthew 24, and ask yourself this: Are these scriptures fulfilling what is happening in recent times and is that GREATER fulfillment being fulfilled today?

Are these signs that Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:3 being fulfilled today? Lets see:

Matthew 24:6: YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. Therefore, Jesus was telling his Apostles that these things must take place (wars i.e. Titus), however, Jesus did say that despite these things happening, the end would not be yet a fulfillment that Jesus Apostles would not have understood at the time.

Matthew 24:7: For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. Was this happening in ancient Israel? Yes. Is it happening all over the world today in an even more worse fashion than Jerusalem could ever achieve? Yes. At the turn of the 20th century until now, war, genocide, and worldwide famine has been unprecedented than any other time period in our entire human history.

Matthew 24:11: And many false prophets will arise and mislead many. This did happen in Israel on a moderate scale but since the tribulation on the Jewish system, more false Christs and false prophets would appear. TODAY, if you look around the world, there are more religions than you and I can even remember with each claiming to be better than the other. BILLIONS are being mislead worldwide for this reason, therefore, fulfilling the scripture that Jesus foretold would happen.

Matthew 24:14: And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come. Was this happening in ancient Israel and in all the nations of the earth? No! If you look at the Greek language in the origianl Matthew 24:14, then is based on the Greek adverb to´te. Greek experts explain that to´te is a demonstrative adverb of time used to introduce that which follows in time or to introduce a subsequent event. Jesus thus predicted that there would be Kingdom preaching and then (after that or subsequently) the end would come. If you look around the world TODAY, who NOW is the religion on earth identified as witnessing to all the nations? A question for you: How many other religions do you know who are voluntarily sacrificing their time both young and old, inexperienced and experienced, from different ethnic backgrounds for non-profit, in 364 different lands and many other languages, and are famous for doing so and most of all, preaching the good news that Jesus foretold? Who are these people? Be my guest.

WitnessofJah · Dec 10, 2004

So these verses above are only a few prophecies that the Bible foretold would happened at the time of the end. Jesus continues in Matthew 24, to talk about the great tribulation. What does he say regarding it? Ask yourself this question: By reading his description, is he just talking about a localized tribulation (i.e. Titus destroying Jerusalem), or is he also talking about a future worldwide tribulation which was to have a GREATER fulfillment? Read for yourself:

Matthew 24:21,23: For then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the worlds beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

Jesus continues

Matthew 24:29,30: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The Son of man, the resurrected Jesus Christ, did not come in that spectacular manner following the destructive end of the Jewish system in 70 C.E. Certainly all the tribes of the earth did not recognize him, as Matthew 24:30 notes, nor did heavenly angels then gather all the anointed Christians from the entire earth (144,000). So when would this additional part of Jesus stupendous prophecy be fulfilled? Is it finding fulfillment in what is going on around us now, or does it, rather, provide divine insight into things that we can expect in the near future?

Matthew 24:33-35: Likewise also YOU, when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. 34 Truly I say to YOU that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.

Jesus goes on to describe the GREATER tribulation that will come

Matthew 24:36-39: Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. If you remember correctly, was the flood of Noah a localized or worldwide phenomena? And also, why DID Jesus compare it to the flood, after all, it was only Jerusalem we're talking about here...?

So by reading these scriptures carefully, has the great tribulation that is foretold in Matthew and Revelation already happened? Did the moon stop giving its light and the stars fall from heaven when Jerusalem was destroyed? Was there such a great slaughter upon mankind that God had to intervene to stop it in Jerusalem? Could not the angels and even Jesus predict when Jerusalem was going to be destroyed? (Ah, but Jesus DID predict the Jerusalem desolation, so was he talking about the same one?) No man on earth knows even when this great tribulation is so why would Titus and his armies? Ill let you draw your own conclusion on that one.

If what you say is literally applied, by your description of the Great Tribulation and the 144,000, you are saying that ALL the 144,000 would have needed to pass through the destruction of Titus in Jerusalem in order to be who they aredoes that sound rational to you? And more importantly, is it backed by scripture? If this great tribulation you speak of (Titus) is NOT what you mean when Revelation states that the 144,000 have to pass through the great tribulation, then what really is your description of THEIR great tribulation?

WitnessofJah · Dec 10, 2004

As a direct answer to the disciples query....Jesus told them exactly when the Temple would be destroyed...."When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation[the Roman ruthless and invincible legions] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, then let him that be in Judea FLEE into the mountains ........BUT PRAY THAT YOUR FLIGHT be not in the winter nor on the sabbath day. chapter 24:15-20.

It is again clear that prior to the Roman legions destroying the temple there would be a time when the Christians would be given opportunity to flee Judea before the actual destruction occurred...because in verse 21 Jesus continued to describe the carnage that would occur when the temple was being destroyed as "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

It was to this great tribulation that Jesus referred in prophecy. And it was also to this specific great tribulation that Daniel the prophet had also previously referred in Daniel 9:26...."And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince[the Roman legions]that shall come SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY; and the end thereof shall be with a flood..."

The above prophecy is the said prophecy to which Jesus referred in His statement..."when ye therefore see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ..... The tribulation also that accompanied the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the temple is also the GREAT TRIBULATION to which Jesus referred....and is also the the prophecy of Daniel 9:26 that prophesied that the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed; and the end thereof shall be with a flood , with desolations until the end of the war".

The disciples though persecuted and though enduring persecution; yet did not see the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. But though in the main most if not all of Jesus' discip[les had been killed before AD 70; yet the prophecy still came to pass even if they did not see the abomination of desolation, stand in the holy place, as Jesus told them they would "see"..."when ye[the disciples]therefore see the abomination of desolations, stand in the holy place'...

The above makes clear that prophecy is independent of human involvement. Jesus answered a question that would imply that His answer was wholly directed at His disciples' question;...and yet He knew that they would not live to see its fulfillment....while in their minds they would have looked for the signs that Jesus had given them that would preceed His return. [/QUOTE]

An imminent destruction WAS prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24:15-20. In a campaign of about five months, Titus warriors defeated the Jews. They killed some 1,100,000 and took nearly 100,000 into captivity. Moreover, the Romans demolished Jerusalem. This proved that the Jewish system of formerly approved worship that centered on the temple had permanently ended. (Hebrews 1:2) Yes, the events of 70 C.E. could rightly be considered tribulation such as has not occurred [on that city, nation, and system] since the worlds beginning, no, nor will occur again.Matthew 24:21.

So far Precept, you are right. However, did Jesus prophecy in Matthew 24 end once Titus had left or does Matthew 24 ALSO have a GREATER fulfillment that was yet to be revealed? Lets see:

A further discourse on whether Jesus limited his prediction to the tribulation of the first century

The Bible shows that much was to follow that tribulation, as is suggested by the use of to´te, or then, at Matthew 24:23 and Mark 13:21. What would develop in the period following 70 C.E.? After the tribulation on the Jewish system, more false Christs and false prophets would appear. (Compare Mark 13:6 with 13:21-23.) History confirms that such individuals have arisen over the centuries since Jerusalems destruction in 70 C.E., though they have not misled people who have sharp spiritual vision and who have been looking to the presence of Christ. (Matthew 24:27, 28) Nevertheless, these developments after the great tribulation of 70 C.E. form one indication that Jesus was looking beyond that tribulation, which was only an initial fulfillment.

If we compare Matthew 24:15-28 and Mark 13:14-23 with Luke 21:20-24, we find a second indication that Jesus prediction extended beyond the destruction of Jerusalem. Recall that Luke alone had mentioned pestilences. Similarly, he alone closed this section with Jesus words: Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations [times of the Gentiles, King James Version] are fulfilled. (Luke 21:24) The Babylonians removed the Jews last king in 607 B.C.E., and after that, Jerusalem, standing for Gods Kingdom, was trampled on. (2 Kings 25:1-26; 1 Chronicles 29:23; Ezekiel 21:25-27) At Luke 21:24, Jesus indicated that the situation would persist into the future until the time came for God to reestablish a Kingdom.

Here is a third indication that Jesus was pointing also to a distant fulfillment: According to the Scriptures, the Messiah was to die and be resurrected, whereupon he would sit at Gods right hand until the Father sent him forth subduing. (Psalm 110:1, 2) Jesus alluded to his having to sit at his Fathers right hand. (Mark 14:62) The apostle Paul confirmed that the resurrected Jesus was at Jehovahs right hand awaiting the time to be King and Gods Executioner.Romans 8:34; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 10:12, 13.

For a fourth and conclusive indication that Jesus prophecy about the conclusion of the system of things applies beyond the first century, we can turn to Revelation chapter 6. Writing decades after 70 C.E., the apostle John described a compelling scene of active horsemen. (Revelation 6:2-8) This prophetic view into the Lords daythe day of his presenceidentifies our 20th century as a time of notable warfare (verse 4), widespread food shortages (verses 5 and 6), and deadly plague (verse 8). Clearly, this parallels what Jesus said in the Gospels and proves that his prophecy has a greater fulfillment in this day of the Lord.Revelation 1:10.

What, then, are we to conclude about how Jesus answered the apostles inquiry? His prophecy accurately foretold things leading up to and encompassing the destruction of Jerusalem, and it mentioned some things to follow 70 C.E. But most of this was to have a second and greater fulfillment in the future, leading up to a great tribulation that would end the present wicked system of things. This means that Jesus prediction at Matthew 24:4-22, and the parallels in Mark and Luke, were fulfilled from 33 C.E. through the tribulation of 70 C.E. Yet, the same verses would have a second fulfillment, which would include a greater tribulation in the future. This larger fulfillment can be seen it daily.

WitnessofJah

To be continued soon....

precept · Dec 11, 2004

What, then, are we to conclude about how Jesus answered the apostles inquiry? His prophecy accurately foretold things leading up to and encompassing the destruction of Jerusalem, and it mentioned some things to follow 70 C.E. But most of this was to have a second and greater fulfillment in the future, leading up to a great tribulation that would end the present wicked system of things. This means that Jesus prediction at Matthew 24:4-22, and the parallels in Mark and Luke, were fulfilled from 33 C.E. through the tribulation of 70 C.E. Yet, the same verses would have a second fulfillment, which would include a greater tribulation in the future. This larger fulfillment can be seen it daily.

"Witness...." it is not for you or I to add emphasis on the signs of the times, where there is to be no added emphasis. No human, no matter how well meaning, can read into what he/she believes can be also seen as a great tribulation. If this were to be so, then the Jewish resistance of Masada could be also considered an example of the great tribulation....or the expulsion of all the Jews from Jerusalem by the emperor Adrian in 130AD could also be considered the great tribulation....Fact is probably, based solely on your reasoning we should consider the forced expulsion by Adrian, the great tribulation as well; if only because the Jews never officially returned to their original homeland till two thousand years later; and that, by an act of the United Nations. And what about the anhilation of six million Jews? That above all, according to your reasoning should qualify as a greater tribulation than the great tribulation of 70AD.

No Witness; neither you nor I have the right to read into the prophetic words of Jesus, what we think it could also mean.

It took more than three thousand of years before the prophetic birth of Messiah came to pass. During this period many occurrences of natural phenomena as well as major castrophies re the nation of Israelites. All had nothing to do with impacting on the prophecies concering the first coming of Jesus. The prophecies relating to His coming, whether His first coming or His second, are the Only prophecies that Must be considered in discussing His coming!....Only God who knows when He will return can tell us What to expect and When.

Read the Old testament! Specific prophecies signaled the first coming. These were the prophecies that led men from the East to find Jesus at His first coming. The mis-interpretation of these prophecies caused the Israelites, God's people to miss completely His first coming.

His second coming is no different! Jesus referred to the great tribulation in the context of a previous prophecy, PROPHECIED MORE THAN A THOUSAND YEARS PRIOR! There is no more hidden second greater tribulation. While there may well be times; even more atrocious than 70 AD; yet those times are not to be included in God's prophetic reckeoning

An example of this reasoning is to be seen in the fact that although God rejected the nation of the Israelites more than a thousand years before the first coming of Jesus; yet nothing in prophetic words ever made mention of this fact. In fact Jesus never mentioned; not once, while as a Jew, living among Jews, that the whole nation of Jews was rejected by God. The closest He came to making reference to this fact was in His statement.."In vain do ye worship me; teaching for doctrines the commandments of men". Not once in prophetic language was there mention of the overthrow of the priest kings that ruled Judea from the time of Ezra and Nehmiah; till the overthrow of priest king rulership by the non-Jew Herod. Not once in prophetic words was there mention that the Roman General Pompey and after Him the Roman vicegerent, Mark Anthony; not once did prophecy refer to these marked events as important in the prophecies that pointed to the first coming of Jesus. The fact, that Jesus made no reference to Agustus Caesar, nor to his successor Tiberius Caesar; rulers who had HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL IN BONDAGEis more proof that only events as spoken by God can be taken as relevant to His prophetic timeline.

That said; Jesus spoke about 1/....."the great tribulation" Then He told His disciples to expect signs in the ..........2/....."sun and the moon and the stars" He also told them to expect ...................3/....."distress in nations"
4/....."the sea and the waves roaring"
5/....."men's heart failing them for fear"
6/....."pestilences and earthquakes in divers places"
7/....."false christs and false prophets"
8/....." children being disobedient to parents"
9/....."children having children"

These events are specific; and will be happening before Jesus comes again. Not any one of these signs can be added to or subtracted from or speculated about as to their meaning. And that includes the prophecy of the great tribulation. It is the perogative of God and His alone as to what He chooses to give His true people as signs of His second coming. And like His people of old; all His sings are interpreted AS IS!

precept

WitnessofJah · Dec 11, 2004

precept said:
Jesus continued His telling His disciples what signs to "look for" that would preceed His coming. Interestingly enough; He also knew that like the signs of the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem that they would never live to see; He also knew that that they would die before the signs of the darkened sun; and a moon that ought to be shining but yet did not...He knew that they would never live to see those signs either.

So like you rightly pointed out, he told His disciples to "look for" that would preceed His coming". Therefore, that scripture is referring to the eventual coming of the prince, Jesus Christ (Michael), i.e. Him, not an immediate coming by him. Did Jesus come in all his glory with his angels at the destruction of Jerusalem like it referred to in Matthew 24:44? Has Michael, the great prince (Jesus) already come like Daniel 12:1 foretold? : And during that time Mi´cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book. Precept, were these scriptures fulfilled already at the destruction of Titus or is it yet still to happen?

Joel had also prophesied about these said signs Joel 2:10,11. " ...the sun and the moon shall be dark and the stars shall withdraw their shining"; As also Jesus in Matthew 24:29.... "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven; and the powers of heaven shall be shaken"...as also Jesus' disciple, the apostle Jiohn had also prophesied....Revelation 6: 12-13; "...and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...."

And also in Mark 13:24-27, which tells an ever more detailed account: But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send forth the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earths extremity to heavens extremity.

Therefore, these signs coincide with the coming of Jesus a second coming. Jesus did NOT come down from heaven with his angels in Jerusalem to gather his chosen onesthat is still YET to happen.

Both Joel 2:10-11; Matthew 24:29; and Revelation 6:12-13; all describe the same signs describing the "day of the Lord" with these same signs that just preceed His coming.

Click to expand...

Thats right. Let me ask you a question: Did Jesus come down from heavens to the earth in the times of Jerusalem OR is it still yet to happen? Please answer this.

And while these same signs were the ones that followed the "great tribulation" of AD 70; yet none of these signs were to be fullfilled within any time frame based on human reckeoning; and yet these signs were told to the disciples as if the disciples would have been alive to witness their fulfillment...even though the fulfillment was years in the future for the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem and thousands of years in the future for the "sun to be darkened ,the moon to turn into blood; and the stars to fall from heaven ".

Click to expand...

Again, answer me this question: Rev 7:14:These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation was written around 25 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, so why does it again refer to another great tribulation if that tribulation in Jerusalem had already happened? And we all know, the book of Revelation is about things to be revealed (i.e. prophecy), which talks about the FUTURE, not the past.

Also, you still have yet to explain what the great tribulation in Jerusalem has to do with the references to the 144,000 in Revelation. Does the Bible only refer to one great tribulation or does it symbolize two, one that has already happened and a future one? You answer that.

However, the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24; is not the "great tribulation" of Revelation chapter 7.

Those of Jesus' followers that endure hardship for his word also pass through "great tribulation" as already the scripture asserts....a "great tribulation" that includes persecution, torture and death....and these are the ones to whom white robes are given by Christ. And also these are they "who follow Him whereever He goes."

It again stands to reason that the 144,000 saved persons are the saved of all the ages who suffered dearly for the cause of Christ... And are made up of Jewish and non-Jewish Christians alike....And hence the 144,000 saved persons are made up of literal Jews and Gentiles with both making up symbolic Israel, seed of Abraham.

First of all, a quick correction in which you have been mistaking throughout this thread. For a person to be a Jew, they have to belong to the religion of Judaism A Jew is not an Israelite, it is a religion. It is impossible for a person to be Jewish (a religion) and a Christian (a religion) at the same time. The correct term is Israelite and non-Israelite.

Matthew 24 describes that there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the worlds beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short. Did Jesus have to intervene on behalf of the Israelites in Jerusalem? No. Even though there is Christians who are persecuted in the world today, has it got the point where no flesh would be saved? No. Thats because the worst is still yet to happen.

WitnessofJah · Dec 11, 2004

I must surrender all my own opinions to the truth of scripture! It is clear to me that the saved of all humanity.."the 144,000", as well as "the great multitude which no man could number", all went to heaven at one and the same identical time. Paul described this occurrence in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18....Jesus had given the disciples, and by extension all His followers the signs of the "Temple being destroyed", followed by the sun and the moon "darkening" and the stars "falling from heaven". Many of the followers of Christ had now since died; and none of these signs as given by Jesus had been fulfilled. The Christians who were alive were concerned that should Jesus return their dead fellow Christians would miss out on returning with Him....Paul explained in 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18, that first "the dead in Christ will rise up from their graves"... because the living followers of Christ would not be preceeding the dead followers of Christ to heaven; but would be going alongside their resurrected fellow saints; as together they accompany their Lord back to the mansions He had gone to prepare in His Father house, and for His faithful followers.

Paul also describes the experience of the wicked at the return of Christ....In 2 Thessalonians 1:9...."In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord...." And in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 ...." And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord will comsume with the spirit of His mouth, AND SHALL DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING".

This picture is supported in Revelation 6:14-16, after the last of the signs Jesus mentioned in matthew 24:29 occurred..." And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places; and the kings of the earth and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."

The "144,000" and the "Great Crowd" described in Revelation are two sepetrate but very unique entities. Let me explain why:

The operative words at the beginning of Revelation 7:9 being "After this I looked" and in the NWT: "After these things I saw". In otherwords, when the Apostle John wrote "After", he means exactly that - after - in otherwords, two seperate and different entitities. The 144,000 refered to in Revelation is much different to the "Great multitude" or "Great Crowd that no man could number" mentioned in Revelation 7:9. What are their symbolic differences and what do they represent? I'll get to the 144,000 later - but first, I'll explain what is meant by the "Great crowd".

The identity of the "Great crowd" - who are they?

The key to the identification of the "great crowd" is found within the description of them in Revelation chapter 7 and in obviously parallel passages. Revelation 7:15-17 speaks of God as spreading his tent over them, of their being guided to "fountains of waters of life," and of Gods wiping "every tear from their eyes." At Revelation 21:2-4 we find parallel expressions: Gods tent being with mankind, his wiping every tear from their eyes, and death being no more. The vision there presented is concerning persons not in heaven, from where the New Jerusalem comes down, but on earth, among mankind.

This poses the question: If the "great crowd" are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be standing before Gods throne and before the Lamb? (Re 7:9) The position of standing is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of the one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19) In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, "the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person" are depicted as seeking to hide themselves "from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36.) It thus appears that the "great crowd" is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to "stand" as approved by God and the Lamb.

The sum of the evidence, therefore, points to the "great crowd" as representing all those persons who are not of the heavenly "bride" class, or 144,000 sealed ones, but who stand approved at the time of the "great tribulation" and are preserved alive on earth.

Conclusion: Therefore, by looking at different passages which point to the same thing, the "Great Crowd" refered to in the visions of the Apostle John are people who have an earthly hope and are not part of the anointed, whereas the "144,000" don't have an eartly hope but have a heavenly one, and are part of the anointed - two different but very unique counterparts.

Therefore, the "great growd" will NOT go to heaven...only the 144,000.

Mister Emu · Dec 11, 2004

So, Witness,

Only those of Jewish anscestry have a chance of going to heaven?

WitnessofJah · Dec 11, 2004

Mister Emu said:
So, Witness,

Only those of Jewish anscestry have a chance of going to heaven?

No. It does not matter what ethnic background they come from, Jesus chooses who he chooses.

Mister Emu · Dec 11, 2004

Correct me if I'm wrong, Jehovah's Witnesses get the 144k from Rev. 7:4 right?

precept · Dec 11, 2004

WitnessofJah said:
The "144,000" and the "Great Crowd" described in Revelation are two sepetrate but very unique entities. Let me explain why:

The operative words at the beginning of Revelation 7:9 being "After this I looked" and in the NWT: "After these things I saw". In otherwords, when the Apostle John wrote "After", he means exactly that - after - in otherwords, two seperate and different entitities. The 144,000 refered to in Revelation is much different to the "Great multitude" or "Great Crowd that no man could number" mentioned in Revelation 7:9.

In order for your expansion on the word after to hold; it must also mean similarly in every context of its usage:

Revelation 4:1 describes Jihn as conversing with Jesus re Jesus standing at the door with His knocking on the said door waiting for the door to be opened to let Him in. Then after this audience with Jesus; John describes another scene where a door was opened in heaven, where he heard a voice "as it were a trumpet talking with me...."
"After"; in this sense is to be interpreted as; simply an act that follows. The previous act being John's audience with Jesus, followed by the scene of a "door opening in heaven". In this case the previous event was not directly related to the following event.

Revelation 11:11 does similarly: John describes the activities of God's two witnesses who were killed by "...the beast that came up out of the bottomless pit"....these two prophets were dead for three and a half days; but "After" the three and a half days "the spirit of life from God entered into them....". Here again "after" denotes an event that followed a previous event. In this case, the previous even was directly related to the following event.

In both of the above examples the only function of the word "After" is to document an event that followed. The events may or may not be related.

Revelation 7:1 follows similarly. John has just finished describing the scene of the second coming of Jesus; which ended with the kings of the earth, the great men and the rich men calling on the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb...."Revelation 6:15-17
This scene is followed with "After" these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth...." Again just one scene following another.

Revelation 7:3-8: John describes the sealing of twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel...then "After this"; the act of the sealing of the 144,000".....verse 9 he saw a great multitude. Or the sealing act scene completed; John was shown another scene, the scene of the great multitude which; "NO MAN COULD NUMBER". but this scene he was shown "After" seeing the scene where people were "NUMBERED" from the twelve tribes.

John, in other words was contrasting the two events; not discussing them in isolation.
The numbered group, was specifically singled out to be sealed before the command was given to "hurt the earth, the sea, and the trees".
Which makes clear that these persons will be living during the time of the "seven last plagues". While this is defintely implied, yet one cannot ignore the fact that the reward for those enduring deprivation, torture and death for the cause of Christ is the same.
Hence it could be concluded that the numbering from the twelve tribes, while describing a specific number is but identifying all who will suffer for the cause of Christ.

Revelation 14:1-12 documents the sealed 144,000 persons as having the mark of God in their foreheads as contrasted against those who worshipped the beast and his image; thus receiving the mark of the beast in their foreheads.

Revelation chapter 16: documents the command now given to the angels to "hurt the earth, the sea and the trees". a command previously with held till the "144,000 persons had been sealed". The group specifically targeted were those who had the mark of the beast in their foreheads. Interestingly enough the answer is now given to the question asked of Jesus in Revelation chapter 6 by the "souls under the altar"....The answer?".....For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink".

The "souls under the altar", as well as the 144,000 persons share suffering and deprivation to the extreme.

The "souls under the altar" endured suffering, torture and death.

The 144,000 persons were exposed to a earth where the entire water system is turned into blood....all the fish in the sea have died, the sun is scorching humanity with unbearable heat...humanity have broken out in incurable sores....and now with "hail" weighing in excess of 50lbs falling out of the sky and destroying everything in sight.

The special privileges of those who suffer for the cause of Christ was previously spoken about by Christ Himself....."Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven......Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely. REJOICE AND BE EXCEEDING GLAD; FOR GREAT IS YOUR REWARD IN HEAVEN......"Matthew 5:10-12

The 144,000, are but "the souls under the altar" together with all the persecuted and or tortured and or those who were put to death for "righteousness sake"; and or those who went through extreme deprivation; and that without forsaking their faith in their LORD.
It is to the 144,000 persons who suffered for the cause of Christ that ANY REWARD IS PROMISED over and above eternal life. And their reward is appropriate in their being privileged to "follow the Lamb whither so ever he goeth"...and in that they like their Master suffered to the extreme for the cause of righteousness.

Seeing as the only promise given to the "saved"; over and above eternal life; is the promise given to those who "suffer for righteousness sake"; can your 8000 say they qualify with any more than the sensation of a "burning in their bosum" and known only to them?

precept

WitnessofJah · Dec 11, 2004

Mister Emu said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, Jehovah's Witnesses get the 144k from Rev. 7:4 right?

Correct, along with Revelation 14:1 and also verse 3.

precept · Dec 11, 2004

What are their symbolic differences and what do they represent? I'll get to the 144,000 later - but first, I'll explain what is meant by the "Great crowd".

The identity of the "Great crowd" - who are they?

The key to the identification of the "great crowd" is found within the description of them in Revelation chapter 7 and in obviously parallel passages. Revelation 7:15-17 speaks of God as spreading his tent over them, of their being guided to "fountains of waters of life," and of Gods wiping "every tear from their eyes." At Revelation 21:2-4 we find parallel expressions: Gods tent being with mankind, his wiping every tear from their eyes, and death being no more. The vision there presented is concerning persons not in heaven, from where the New Jerusalem comes down, but on earth, among mankind.

"Witness....." You now make the error of identifying the "great crowd" using selective passages to so do. I suppose it is not unreasonable to expect that you'll also put your 'spin' on "And 'After' these things I heard a GREAT VOICE OF MUCH PEOPLE IN HEAVEN[great crowd in heaven, maybe?]

There is no doubt that the 144,000 of "your own" went to a different place! I would expect that the apostle John would know the difference between the voice "of much people" as against the voice of 144,000.
In order for you not to put the 'spin' on John's understanding of "the voice of much people"...John reiterated in verse 6 of Revelation 19..."I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude...saying Alleluja: for the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth.

And who do you suppose came down in the City of the New Jerusalem out of heaven?....only the 144,000! maybe? Read again.....Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And did you say only 144,000 went to heaven? I guess only they represent the bride of Christ according to you! Well I am guessing that either you "can count" better than Paul, or you are false and Paul is true. It was Paul who said that " none of the living saints will preceed the dead saints to heaven on the return of our Lord". Paul said clearly that the "dead will arise first; and together with the living saints both resurrected dead saints and living saints escort our Lord back to heaven. "And so they are ever with the Lord; says Paul. You will find the account in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 . If according to you only 144,000 persons went to heaven; would you say half were made up 72,000 resurrected dead saints and the other half 72,000 living saints! That would put your total of 144,000 going to heaven in perspective. I am sure that's your kind of spin!
But you wont get away that easily! because John saw Satan and the nations he had decieved "encompassing the New Jerusalem, the camp of the saints, the beloved city, that had just come down from God out of heaven" with all the saints that Jesus had taken back with Him on His second return from earth to heaven---"and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured satan and the wicked who had encircled the city of God believing that their sheer numbers woud have been sufficient to overwhelm a limited number compared to their own vast numbers which numbered more than sand on the seashore."...Revelation 20:9

Again; that leaves the 144,000 of your own on the outside looking in!

precept

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