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Why people should go vegan

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
A couple of days back I made a post about the nature of the soul. Eventually, someone stated that the concept of “the soul” is in fact an ancient error. This made me do some thinking and I have now discarded the concept.

If we don’t have souls, then to what do we attribute our sentience and powers of agency? I’d say consciousness. Consciousness is a much better concept than the soul. We know that it exists. We know that we ourselves are conscious (we think therefore we are) and via the use of empathy we can say that others are too. We can observe it in systems of cause and effect. And we can observe both suffering and joy, as states of consciousness. I no longer believe that anyone has a “soul” – instead I believe we are all conscious – whether we are biological or technological in nature (as a Simulist I believe all conscious beings are in fact programs within a computer simulation).

But here’s a thing: animals are conscious. This cannot be denied in the same way that we can deny that they have souls. We can plainly observe that beasts can feel pain and can suffer. If cruelty to humans should be avoided because suffering and harm is bad then I’d say the suffering of animals should be valued as equally bad: suffering is suffering, regardless of the characteristics of the subject. Just because beasts cannot articulate pain and suffering as we can doesn’t mean their pain and suffering are any less real than it is for us humans – and doesn’t mean we have any less of a duty to either stop or prevent it.

I believe that “human” is a sub-set of “person” and that “animal” is also a sub-set of “person” – and I define personhood as what one has if one is conscious: Contrast “person” with “commodity”. I believe that personhood entitles one to be ethically treated. Of course, personhood comes in all shapes and sizes. And treating Being A equally, in the same spirit as Being B does not mean treating them the same in practical terms – e.g. how one should treat a human with compassion and dignity is different from how one should treat a wild animal with compassion and dignity.

If a maxim (e.g. “cause no harm”) can be applied to one type of conscious being (on account of harm being negatively valued in our moral and practical calculations) then why can it not be applied to other beings that are endowed with the same ability to suffer? Why is the suffering of a beast seen as less undesirable than the suffering of a human? The ethical spirit in which we treat humans should I think be extended to animals, as when it comes to consciousness humans and animals are demonstrably equal, so should therefore be treated in the same spirit, as though both are parts of the same family of life. Logically, I’d say that if we should be ethical to humans then we should be just as ethical to animals too as the reasons for being ethical to humans also applies to animals.

On account of all this, I now firmly believe in veganism – primarily for ethical reasons (but there are other concerns) – and intend to live my life accordingly. I now believe that eating should be about survival and fellowship, not stuffing one’s face. And that it should be done as ethically as possible.

Basically: people should go vegan - discuss.
 

Liu

Well-Known Member
If those are your ethics then your conclusion seems sound.
Except that also plants can perceive things, and we don't know really whether they are conscious or not. Same for (some) invertebrate animals.
But yeah, if by consciousness you simply mean awareness, subjectivity, then I would suppose at least all vertebrates have that.

Still, I have different ethics than you, or rather, I believe in amorality. There is nothing inherently wrong with anything, you may just like some things more or less than other things, so there is also nothing inherently wrong with killing and eating other beings.
 

Misunderstood

Active Member
Not, pertinent to your post, but Happy Birthday!

Here is a video to wish you happy birthday and hopefully help with your message to get people to go vegan.



I'm sure Revoltingest will be along shortly with some birthday gifts.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
If we don’t have souls, then to what do we attribute our sentience and powers of agency?
Our brain, which specific parts of are responsible for consciousness and self-awareness.
Basically: people should go vegan - discuss.
If it's what you personally want for yourself. It's not for me. I especially love seafood too much. "Eat and be eaten" is the order of nature.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I think people can chose for them self what they feel they can eat or drink. If people does not want to eat meat or dairy products that is fine, but no need to say "why people should" then it is suddenly not a choice
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A couple of days back I made a post about the nature of the soul. Eventually, someone stated that the concept of “the soul” is in fact an ancient error. This made me do some thinking and I have now discarded the concept.

If we don’t have souls, then to what do we attribute our sentience and powers of agency? I’d say consciousness. Consciousness is a much better concept than the soul. We know that it exists. We know that we ourselves are conscious (we think therefore we are) and via the use of empathy we can say that others are too. We can observe it in systems of cause and effect. And we can observe both suffering and joy, as states of consciousness. I no longer believe that anyone has a “soul” – instead I believe we are all conscious – whether we are biological or technological in nature (as a Simulist I believe all conscious beings are in fact programs within a computer simulation).

But here’s a thing: animals are conscious. This cannot be denied in the same way that we can deny that they have souls. We can plainly observe that beasts can feel pain and can suffer. If cruelty to humans should be avoided because suffering and harm is bad then I’d say the suffering of animals should be valued as equally bad: suffering is suffering, regardless of the characteristics of the subject. Just because beasts cannot articulate pain and suffering as we can doesn’t mean their pain and suffering are any less real than it is for us humans – and doesn’t mean we have any less of a duty to either stop or prevent it.

I believe that “human” is a sub-set of “person” and that “animal” is also a sub-set of “person” – and I define personhood as what one has if one is conscious: Contrast “person” with “commodity”. I believe that personhood entitles one to be ethically treated. Of course, personhood comes in all shapes and sizes. And treating Being A equally, in the same spirit as Being B does not mean treating them the same in practical terms – e.g. how one should treat a human with compassion and dignity is different from how one should treat a wild animal with compassion and dignity.

If a maxim (e.g. “cause no harm”) can be applied to one type of conscious being (on account of harm being negatively valued in our moral and practical calculations) then why can it not be applied to other beings that are endowed with the same ability to suffer? Why is the suffering of a beast seen as less undesirable than the suffering of a human? The ethical spirit in which we treat humans should I think be extended to animals, as when it comes to consciousness humans and animals are demonstrably equal, so should therefore be treated in the same spirit, as though both are parts of the same family of life. Logically, I’d say that if we should be ethical to humans then we should be just as ethical to animals too as the reasons for being ethical to humans also applies to animals.

On account of all this, I now firmly believe in veganism – primarily for ethical reasons (but there are other concerns) – and intend to live my life accordingly. I now believe that eating should be about survival and fellowship, not stuffing one’s face. And that it should be done as ethically as possible.

Basically: people should go vegan - discuss.
There are also extremely important environmental and climate reasons that humans should eat a vegan diet. These reasons ultimately amount to an ethical argument: we should not destroy the planet just to gratify the desire to have meat in one's mouth for a couple of seconds before swallowing.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
SHOULD we take everyone else's choice away to choose what they want for themselves? I hate vegan, and I hate other people thinking their going to choose for me when they wouldn't want the same in return. What if how you feel or what I eat you need to eat too or you should feel the same way as I do, you no longer have a choice(s), you have to do it that way because that's what someone else besides yourself says you need to do, so your choice(s) are taken away from you and what you think doesn't matter either, so there! What you want to eat, believe, say or do and how you feel and what you think everyone needs to do it like MMEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! ME!! I AM SO WONDERFUL!!! I KNOW IT ALLL!!!! and no one else knows anything besides MMEEEEEEEEE!!!!! I am gooooddd bow to everything I do and say, because you SHOULD, NOW!!

I have no interest in forcing people into lifestyle options they don’t want

I don’t care if you personally eat meat and would never want to deny you that freedom

Just saying there’s a more ethical way, that’s all
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
I think people can chose for them self what they feel they can eat or drink. If people does not want to eat meat or dairy products that is fine, but no need to say "why people should" then it is suddenly not a choice

Yes, I do believe humanity should go vegan

BUT I believe it should be optional

I don’t want to force things on to anyone

Am just saying there’s a more ethical way, that’s all
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Yes, I do believe humanity should go vegan

BUT I believe it should be optional

I don’t want to force things on to anyone

Am just saying there’s a more ethical way, that’s all
Yes i agree we should not kill animals for food, But eating meat in it self is not a wrong deed, the killing is a wrong deed. So yes i do understand your view too
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Over my 50 years of the ability to observe on this planet, I've seen a huge shift in nutrition awareness. A more recent development was the revamping of the Canada Food Guide. Social change is slow. When we traveled across country 40 years ago, it was really hard. Lunch (for the vegetarian) at diners was a grilled cheese sandwich and a side of fries. The 'salad' was a chunk of iceberg lettuce with some kind of yucky dressing. Grocery stores meant a can of beans, some fruit, and some white bread. Even seeing 60% whole wheat bread was a surprise. Usually one lane was dedicated to soft drinks and junk snacks.

In both regards, the average grocery store, and in diners. the options these days are about 100 times greater.

Social change takes time. Each generation shifts a little.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I am quite happy getting some of my protein from meat, thats my choice. My eldest daughter won't eat meat, she is vegetarian not vegan, thats her choice.

The common word here is choice
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
True, but if there was less of a demand for meat then there'd be less killing, and you can't have the meat without the killing
Well if there was a roadkill you could. yes there is to much meat in our food but that does not mean we need to be vegan, but more vegetarian that is good for health.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Ya'll go Vegan while I eat



Elk_Tomahawk_2.jpg
photo_porterhouse_steak_bdbaef5e-7c42-4893-ae30-ea77646eb48f_1024x1024.jpg
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
A couple of days back I made a post about the nature of the soul. Eventually, someone stated that the concept of “the soul” is in fact an ancient error. This made me do some thinking and I have now discarded the concept.

If we don’t have souls, then to what do we attribute our sentience and powers of agency? I’d say consciousness. Consciousness is a much better concept than the soul. We know that it exists. We know that we ourselves are conscious (we think therefore we are) and via the use of empathy we can say that others are too. We can observe it in systems of cause and effect. And we can observe both suffering and joy, as states of consciousness. I no longer believe that anyone has a “soul” – instead I believe we are all conscious – whether we are biological or technological in nature (as a Simulist I believe all conscious beings are in fact programs within a computer simulation).

But here’s a thing: animals are conscious. This cannot be denied in the same way that we can deny that they have souls. We can plainly observe that beasts can feel pain and can suffer. If cruelty to humans should be avoided because suffering and harm is bad then I’d say the suffering of animals should be valued as equally bad: suffering is suffering, regardless of the characteristics of the subject. Just because beasts cannot articulate pain and suffering as we can doesn’t mean their pain and suffering are any less real than it is for us humans – and doesn’t mean we have any less of a duty to either stop or prevent it.

I believe that “human” is a sub-set of “person” and that “animal” is also a sub-set of “person” – and I define personhood as what one has if one is conscious: Contrast “person” with “commodity”. I believe that personhood entitles one to be ethically treated. Of course, personhood comes in all shapes and sizes. And treating Being A equally, in the same spirit as Being B does not mean treating them the same in practical terms – e.g. how one should treat a human with compassion and dignity is different from how one should treat a wild animal with compassion and dignity.

If a maxim (e.g. “cause no harm”) can be applied to one type of conscious being (on account of harm being negatively valued in our moral and practical calculations) then why can it not be applied to other beings that are endowed with the same ability to suffer? Why is the suffering of a beast seen as less undesirable than the suffering of a human? The ethical spirit in which we treat humans should I think be extended to animals, as when it comes to consciousness humans and animals are demonstrably equal, so should therefore be treated in the same spirit, as though both are parts of the same family of life. Logically, I’d say that if we should be ethical to humans then we should be just as ethical to animals too as the reasons for being ethical to humans also applies to animals.

On account of all this, I now firmly believe in veganism – primarily for ethical reasons (but there are other concerns) – and intend to live my life accordingly. I now believe that eating should be about survival and fellowship, not stuffing one’s face. And that it should be done as ethically as possible.

Basically: people should go vegan - discuss.

I'm fine with this for me. However I decided a while back it's not my job to determine what is right and wrong for others. They make that decision for themselves and deal with whatever consequences that come about.

Now if I knew absolutely right vs wrong then I'd go about encouraging folks to do what is right, but I don't really. I know what seems right for me and I'm happy to let folks know what works for me but I feel they have to make their own decisions about what is right and wrong just like me.
 
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