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The Gospel of John Claims that Jesus is God

Oeste

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Oeste said:
Indeed, @kjw47, who are like the Jehovah Witnesses?

"The Witness Pharisee , standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like Christendom other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this so-called Christian tax collector."(Luke 18:11)
Sorry for the typos, but I did cross (excuse the pun) them out.
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kjw47 said:
That works for 99% of all religion on earth, except for the one who has Jesus.
Click to expand...

Actually it works for the one who has Jesus and least for the one who does not.

You are certainly confused if you believe standing like a Pharisee and peering down your nose at "Christendom" will gain you the kingdom of God. Saying "Jehovah" will not open the doors to the Kingdom anymore than "Open Sesame" opens the door to the fabled riches of Ali Baba, and neither will peddling literature during field service gain you entrance anymore than tithing a tenth of your spice.

It is only the work of the risen Christ that gains you entrance but still you push him aside and claim you can do it all on your own.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Jehovah, Jehovah' 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of an Organization my Father who is in heaven."

Again, my apologies for the typos.
 
Sand Dancer

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
74x12 said:
How do you know Mark is the oldest Gospel? I've heard that Matthew is the first.

.
Click to expand...

Mark did not add the supernatural aspects that Matthew did. Mark took from Q. Matthew has aspects of Mark in it. Also Mark started with Jesus' ministry, not his birth narrative.
 
kjw47

kjw47

Well-Known Member
TheresOnlyNow said:
But you don't believe Jesus name, Emmanuel, and what it means. Nor do you believe Jesus when he said he and the father are one. And when you have seen him you have seen the father.
And all those other verses wherein Jesus teaches he is the Father.
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I know 100% Jesus and the Father are one, in PURPOSE. The living to do his Fathers will( John 5:30) As do his followers-Matthew 7:21)--Jesus never teaches he is the Father.
 
kjw47

kjw47

Well-Known Member
TheresOnlyNow said:
He is. Those scriptures that conflict with your belief that you choose to set aside as you will do not equivocate. Jesus is very clear.
He was God and he commanded judgment be righteous.
Do you know what righteous judgment means?
It means judge based on the teachings of God .
This is why adultery is to be judged. This is why homosexuality is to be judged. Tran-affliction/afflicted. Murderers are to be judged using righteous judgement. This has been the case since the Bible has been offered as an article of truth upon which to swear allegiance to the truth and nothing but the truth when someone is about to testify in court for any manner of sins. Though they are a secular court that which is tried was first that which God judged sin.
Do you understand that scripture passage you posted rebukes your choosing to believe Jesus was not the Father in flesh? No man can look upon God and live. The Bible says that too.

How else would God deliver his new grace covenant to his people but in the body of the son of a man. Jesus was the son of God and having the appearance of that which is seen as the son of man. Your idea of Jesus is that Joseph was his biological father.

Emmanuel was begotten by God upon Mary. God was his father. Do you think something other than the holy spirit that is God could make the flesh of Emmanuel in the woman that was first created by the power and will of God in Eden?
God was Jesus' Heavenly Father. His source. Emmanuel was fully in the flesh, and fully empowered by the holy spirit that is creator. God creates all things of himself. Jesus was God.
When you claim to believe what Jesus says you are false if you deny Jesus meant what he said when he tells us that about himself.
And that scripture you shared was a Godsend. It warns you against not believing the Son.
That's all I can tell you. The rest is up to you. God knows. And when you deny Jesus whom God named so as to tell his people when they met him and heard the name, Emmanuel, by which he was to be called, they knew whom they were encountering. God with us.
If it was meant to be anything else,he would have been named something else. God named him. But you don't believe that either. God with us.
Not, God sent him to us. Not, God is with him. God with us.
Verse 34 *editing to add this* reiterates the truth. God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Emmanuel. God fully filled Emmanuel. He didn't measure a piece of himself to him. Emmanuel was all creation of God by God. Flesh and Spirit are created of and by God when Emmanuel was begat upon Mary. Because God created all things of himself in the beginning. That means there is no thing created that is not of God. The Bible tells us that too.

34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
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Yes believe he is the one sent forth by God-The Messiah.
If Jesus were God why did all things have to be given to him? God owns all things already. Why did he have to be appointed king? When God was already king? Daniel 7:13-15) And have to hand it back to his God and Father and subject himself? 1Corinthians 15:24-28)
 
kjw47

kjw47

Well-Known Member
metis said:
Paul wrote both of those, and he said he will not judge others, including himself.

There's a difference between general teachings versus judging others, and I would suggest playing "God" is simply not our role.
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There is no playing God--The words are plain English--Will NOT enter Gods kingdom.
 
kjw47

kjw47

Well-Known Member
74x12 said:
Forget the trinity. You should focus on the fact Jesus is God in the scriptures. I don't believe the trinity.

Just because Jesus has a God doesn't change things.

Matthew emphasized the meaning of Immanuel as "God with us" for a reason. It's to show us that Jesus was God with us.
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Again the bible shows that Gods power went through Jesus-Acts2:22--Like it did through Moses. God was with Israel at that point as well, but was not down here. And Jesus lives 24/7-365( being one with his Father) doing his will( John 5:30) That is how one could see the Father in Jesus.
 
kjw47

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Oeste said:
Actually it works for the one who has Jesus and least for the one who does not.

You are certainly confused if you believe standing like a Pharisee and peering down your nose at "Christendom" will gain you the kingdom of God. Saying "Jehovah" will not open the doors to the Kingdom anymore than "Open Sesame" opens the door to the fabled riches of Ali Baba, and neither will peddling literature during field service gain you entrance anymore than tithing a tenth of your spice.

It is only the work of the risen Christ that gains you entrance but still you push him aside and claim you can do it all on your own.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Jehovah, Jehovah' 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of an Organization my Father who is in heaven."

Again, my apologies for the typos.
Click to expand...



No mortal can do it on their own. Jesus is my king. Obeying him is proof of following him. Lip service accomplishes little.
The bible speaks of the real Jesus as well. There is more than one being taught. His followers have become -ONE- with The Father and Jesus--Unity of thought no division.1Cor 1:10) The living now 24/7 365 to do Jesus Fathers will-Matthew 7:21)
 
TheresOnlyNow

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
kjw47 said:
I know 100% Jesus and the Father are one, in PURPOSE. The living to do his Fathers will( John 5:30) As do his followers-Matthew 7:21)--Jesus never teaches he is the Father.
Click to expand...
That's false.
I was wondering how it would be that Christians don't know the most basic of Christ's teachings.
Even the very beginning of his story when he was begotten upon Mary by God's will and his angel who informed Mary of God's plans for her. And when she consented to be the vessel that would bear to life the savior of the world, was told she would to name the son, Emmanuel. Meaning, "God with us".
Quite unequivocal being it was God's command.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which is by interpretation, God with us.

And then I remembered. There are denominations that teach Jesus was just a man. That he was not divine. Anabaptist's and Christadelphians, as I recall are but two that I can think of at the moment.
This helps to understand when encountering those who deny Jesus was divine.

Very often it is thought these folk believe this because they've been told Jesus' divinity was added later to the writings about him. And often the council of Nicea is given credit for that addition to the writings; Jesus was divine. Jesus was Father God in flesh.
But that would mean this addition would have entered the faith around the 4th century A.D. .
That would mean early Christian writings describing Jesus as divine would supplant such an argument. And indeed they do.
Epistle to Diognetus, a popular early Christian work that affirmed a very high Christology. Here are a few select passages:

But the truly all-powerful God himself, creator of all and invisible, set up and established in their [Christians’] hearts the truth and the holy word from heaven, which cannot be comprehended by humans. To do so, he did not, as one might suppose, send them one of his servants or an angel or a ruler…but he sent the craftsman and maker of all things himself, by whom he created the heavens, by whom he encloses the sea within its own boundaries, whose mysteries all the elements of creation guard faithfully, from whom the sun was appointed to guard the courses that it runs during the day, whom the moon obeys when he commands it to shine at night, whom the stars obey by following the course of the moon, by whom all things are set in order and arranged and put into subjection, the heavens and the things in the heavens, the earth and the things in the earth, the sea and all the things in the sea, fire, air, the abyss, creatures in the heights, creatures in the depths, and creatures in between–this is the one he sent to them. (7.2)

The next passage:
So, then, did he [God], as one might suppose, send him [his Son] to rule in tyranny, fear, and terror? Not at all. But with gentleness and meekness, as a king sending his own son, he sent him as a king; he sent him as God; he sent him as a human to humans. So that he might bring salvation. (7.3-4).

Excerpts taken from this source:
Exploring the origins of the New Testament canon and other biblical and theological issues

Did the Earliest Christians Really Think Jesus Was God? One Important Example - December 11, 2014

In any event, realizing Christadelphians and Anabaptist denominations are not clearly identified on the forum under their profile name, it makes it now easier to understand the opposition they present to the scriptures that affirm Jesus is God.
I'll leave you therefore to your denominational teachings.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
kjw47 said:
There is no playing God--The words are plain English--Will NOT enter Gods kingdom.
Click to expand...
... as you continue to play "God" in defiance of Jesus' and Paul's teachings, so you actually might consider being much more careful not to do that as the finish of Jesus' statement is "... and you will be judged..." on what you judge others on.

Your choice, but let me just recommend that maybe following Jesus and Paul probably is a far better choice than following the JW teachers.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
kjw47 said:
Believe Jesus--Matthew 6:33-- Therefore, keep on seeking-FIRST- the kingdom and his ( YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness. He warned he wouldn't be known-John 15:20-21
Click to expand...

I believe it is totally illogical to derive that from those verses.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
metis said:
... as you continue to play "God" in defiance of Jesus' and Paul's teachings, so you actually might consider being much more careful not to do that as the finish of Jesus' statement is "... and you will be judged..." on what you judge others on.

Your choice, but let me just recommend that maybe following Jesus and Paul probably is a far better choice than following the JW teachers.
Click to expand...

I believe Jesus was already my teacher before the JWs came to study with me. They would say something contrary to the Bible and later Jesus would come along and say they got it all wrong.
 
TheresOnlyNow

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
kjw47 said:
There is no playing God--The words are plain English--Will NOT enter Gods kingdom.
Click to expand...
You may consider that those who are most strongly opposed to what the Bible teaches about God and his promised judgment are likely those who refuse to abandon the sins promised to be most harshly judged.
 
Oeste

Oeste

Well-Known Member
kjw47 said:
Jesus is my king. Obeying him is proof of following him.
Click to expand...

Let's not confuse your Governing Board with Jesus. The two are not the same.


kjw47 said:
Lip service accomplishes little.
Click to expand...

That's not what the bible teaches, is it?

So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! ...James 3:18

Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit. Psalm 34:13

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness James 3:1​

kjw47 said:
The bible speaks of the real Jesus as well. There is more than one being taught. His followers have become -ONE- with The Father and Jesus--Unity of thought no division.1Cor 1:10)
Click to expand...

Unity,not conformity of mind and thought kjw. You confuse unity and conformity as easily as you confused your Governing Board with Jesus. In fact, had your teachers practiced what they actually teach they would have "conformed" with "Christendom", never strayed from its teachings, and there would be no Jehovah Witnesses today, so none of what you say now makes any sense whatsoever.

So what was the end result of your conformity of thought? Here's just one example:

Creators Promise Awake!.png


You attempted to put words that weren't true smack dab in the middle of Jehovah's mouth! But I suppose it's no big deal because, as you said above, "Lip service accomplishes little".

The truth is, your Organization has not repented of this sin, and since you have "Unity of thought no division" then you haven't repented either. But what does the bible say?

Be not a witness against your neighbor without cause, and do not deceive with your lips. Proverbs 24:28

Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight. Proverbs 12:22

You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord. Leviticus 19:12​

The "Creator's promise", the lie your Organization falsely swore Jehovah made, was not a "mistake" or "error" kjw. It was a purposeful, intentional act, just like their refusal to repent is also a purposeful, intentional act. Until your Organization repents of its profanity it remains in its sin.Of course, if your Organization has repented, please direct me to the article. I'll gladly post it here. But we all know your Organization has never apologized for anything, and in perfect lockstep conformity Jehovah Witnesses tell us there is nothing to apologize for.

This is why we strongly suggest Witnesses not be so quick to peer down their collective nose. No one's asking your Organization to be perfect, just a little less haughty.
 
kjw47

kjw47

Well-Known Member
TheresOnlyNow said:
That's false.
I was wondering how it would be that Christians don't know the most basic of Christ's teachings.
Even the very beginning of his story when he was begotten upon Mary by God's will and his angel who informed Mary of God's plans for her. And when she consented to be the vessel that would bear to life the savior of the world, was told she would to name the son, Emmanuel. Meaning, "God with us".
Quite unequivocal being it was God's command.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which is by interpretation, God with us.

And then I remembered. There are denominations that teach Jesus was just a man. That he was not divine. Anabaptist's and Christadelphians, as I recall are but two that I can think of at the moment.
This helps to understand when encountering those who deny Jesus was divine.

Very often it is thought these folk believe this because they've been told Jesus' divinity was added later to the writings about him. And often the council of Nicea is given credit for that addition to the writings; Jesus was divine. Jesus was Father God in flesh.
But that would mean this addition would have entered the faith around the 4th century A.D. .
That would mean early Christian writings describing Jesus as divine would supplant such an argument. And indeed they do.
Epistle to Diognetus, a popular early Christian work that affirmed a very high Christology. Here are a few select passages:

But the truly all-powerful God himself, creator of all and invisible, set up and established in their [Christians’] hearts the truth and the holy word from heaven, which cannot be comprehended by humans. To do so, he did not, as one might suppose, send them one of his servants or an angel or a ruler…but he sent the craftsman and maker of all things himself, by whom he created the heavens, by whom he encloses the sea within its own boundaries, whose mysteries all the elements of creation guard faithfully, from whom the sun was appointed to guard the courses that it runs during the day, whom the moon obeys when he commands it to shine at night, whom the stars obey by following the course of the moon, by whom all things are set in order and arranged and put into subjection, the heavens and the things in the heavens, the earth and the things in the earth, the sea and all the things in the sea, fire, air, the abyss, creatures in the heights, creatures in the depths, and creatures in between–this is the one he sent to them. (7.2)

The next passage:
So, then, did he [God], as one might suppose, send him [his Son] to rule in tyranny, fear, and terror? Not at all. But with gentleness and meekness, as a king sending his own son, he sent him as a king; he sent him as God; he sent him as a human to humans. So that he might bring salvation. (7.3-4).

Excerpts taken from this source:
Exploring the origins of the New Testament canon and other biblical and theological issues

Did the Earliest Christians Really Think Jesus Was God? One Important Example - December 11, 2014

In any event, realizing Christadelphians and Anabaptist denominations are not clearly identified on the forum under their profile name, it makes it now easier to understand the opposition they present to the scriptures that affirm Jesus is God.
I'll leave you therefore to your denominational teachings.
Click to expand...



They shall call his - name- not him, his name. His Father made his name above other names. The Father is the only source of power. Jesus was a Mortal, made lower than the angels while on earth( Hebrews 2:7-9) God did it all through him( Acts 2:22)- Jesus gives all credit to his Father. John 5:30)
 
kjw47

kjw47

Well-Known Member
metis said:
... as you continue to play "God" in defiance of Jesus' and Paul's teachings, so you actually might consider being much more careful not to do that as the finish of Jesus' statement is "... and you will be judged..." on what you judge others on.

Your choice, but let me just recommend that maybe following Jesus and Paul probably is a far better choice than following the JW teachers.
Click to expand...



I didn't make those judgements. The bible writers shared them, because they are important for all to know.
 
kjw47

kjw47

Well-Known Member
TheresOnlyNow said:
You may consider that those who are most strongly opposed to what the Bible teaches about God and his promised judgment are likely those who refuse to abandon the sins promised to be most harshly judged.
Click to expand...


Because preachers are lying all over the earth telling those who do those sins, they are saved or born again. Its not truth. They do not know who is saved. They have never seen ones name written in Gods book of life, nor can they read the true heart of another, nor do they know if that one can endure until their end to be saved( Matthew10:22)
 
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