• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christians Only - When will God judge you?

Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
When do you anticipate standing before God to be judged? Is it at the moment you die, or later on? If it's at the moment you die, and you are sent to Heaven, what's the point of the Final Judgment as described in the book of Revelation? Is that so that God can change His mind if He thinks He may have made a mistake in allowing you into Heaven?
 
Quiddity

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Katzpur said:
When do you anticipate standing before God to be judged? Is it at the moment you die, or later on? If it's at the moment you die, and you are sent to Heaven, what's the point of the Final Judgment as described in the book of Revelation? Is that so that God can change His mind if He thinks He may have made a mistake in allowing you into Heaven?
Click to expand...

Good question.

Catholic Answers
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Hope that is what you were looking for.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Victor said:
Good question.

Catholic Answers
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Hope that is what you were looking for.
Click to expand...
Yes, it's exactly what I was looking for. (Not what I believe, but what I was looking for.)

Revelation 20:11-13 states, "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

That doesn't sound very "general" to me. It sounds like each individual who has ever lived will stand before God to be judged, and to be rewarded according to his works.
 
Quiddity

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Katzpur said:
That doesn't sound very "general" to me. It sounds like each individual who has ever lived will stand before God to be judged, and to be rewarded according to his works.
Click to expand...

Isn't that what I said? :confused:
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Victor said:
Isn't that what I said? :confused:
Click to expand...
I'm thinking that the Final Judgment, as described in Revelation, is the judgment at which we are welcomed into Heaven and given our heavenly reward. I got the impression you were saying that judgment will be more general in nature. I believe this judgment will take place at the Second Coming, not immediately after we die. It sounds as if everyone will be gathered together at that time. I don't believe, as I'm sure you know, that we go to heaven immediately after death. I believe we go to paradise where we await the judgment which will follow when we are resurrected.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Katzpur said:
When do you anticipate standing before God to be judged? Is it at the moment you die, or later on? If it's at the moment you die, and you are sent to Heaven, what's the point of the Final Judgment as described in the book of Revelation? Is that so that God can change His mind if He thinks He may have made a mistake in allowing you into Heaven?
Click to expand...

From our perspective - the moment that we die.
 
Quiddity

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Katzpur said:
I'm thinking that the Final Judgment, as described in Revelation, is the judgment at which we are welcomed into Heaven and given our heavenly reward. I got the impression you were saying that judgment will be more general in nature. I believe this judgment will take place at the Second Coming, not immediately after we die. It sounds as if everyone will be gathered together at that time. I don't believe, as I'm sure you know, that we go to heaven immediately after death. I believe we go to paradise where we await the judgment which will follow when we are resurrected.
Click to expand...

As catholics we believe in two judgements. The latter one is described in Revelation as you have noted. Hebrews talks of the first one as I showed above.
 
Terrywoodenpic

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Strangely Judgement is hardly ever talked about in detail in the Church of England.
Some believe as the Catholics do.
Others like me believe we will be Judged when we die.
I have very little faith in Revelations. Most of it jars with me...I am sure it is one of the parts of the Bible that should not be seen as literal.
The official line is per the Catholics, but seems now to be a minority position.
 
lunamoth

lunamoth

Will to love
Terrywoodenpic said:
Strangely Judgement is hardly ever talked about in detail in the Church of England.
Some believe as the Catholics do.
Others like me believe we will be Judged when we die.
I have very little faith in Revelations. Most of it jars with me...I am sure it is one of the parts of the Bible that should not be seen as literal.
The official line is per the Catholics, but seems now to be a minority position.
Click to expand...
That's how I see it too Terry. In the Episcopal Church it is a tenet there will be a judgment day, but what this means is not spelled out.

From our catechism:

Q: What do we mean by the last judgment?
A: We believe that Christ will come in glory and judge the living and the dead.

That's it. Can be understood in many different ways, I think.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Victor said:
As catholics we believe in two judgements. The latter one is described in Revelation as you have noted. Hebrews talks of the first one as I showed above.
Click to expand...
I believe that Matthew 25:31-32 is speaking of the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-13. Hebrews 9:27 merely states that the judgment will come after death. That pretty much goes without saying. It doesn't, however, say how soon after death it will take place. I believe in an immediate judgment, too, but it's not the one in which our ultimate fate will be determined. It is a sort of a preliminary separation of the righteous from the wicked. I suppose it even bears a slight resemblance to the concept of Purgatory. I'll have to see what I can dig up to show that the early Christians believed in this same preliminary judgement and a later, final judgment. I know I've got some information on the topic. I'm just not sure what I have online.
 
Quiddity

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Katzpur said:
I believe that Matthew 25:31-32 is speaking of the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-13. Hebrews 9:27 merely states that the judgment will come after death. That pretty much goes without saying. It doesn't, however, say how soon after death it will take place. I believe in an immediate judgment, too, but it's not the one in which our ultimate fate will be determined. It is a sort of a preliminary separation of the righteous from the wicked. I suppose it even bears a slight resemblance to the concept of Purgatory. I'll have to see what I can dig up to show that the early Christians believed in this same preliminary judgement and a later, final judgment. I know I've got some information on the topic. I'm just not sure what I have online.
Click to expand...

Then I can't see where we disagree really.
 
W

writer

Active Member
Revelation 20:11-13's what Hebrews 9:27 refers to.
Christ's death as God's passover lamb 'n brass serpent IS God's judgment for believers re eternity. His death's theirs. 'S called redemption
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Victor said:
Then I can't see where we disagree really.
Click to expand...
Well, we seem to have some difference of opinion as to the following statement:

We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be.
Click to expand...


In your own words, Victor, explain the difference between what you believe happens immediately after death and what happens at the final judgment when Christ returns to Earth.
 
James the Persian

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Victor said:
Good question.

Catholic Answers
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Hope that is what you were looking for.
Click to expand...

Ours is almost the same. We don't believe (this may actually be the same as you, though the wording above does not seem quite the same) that people receive their full reward etc. after the particular judgement (for one thing they haven't yet been resurrected in the body) but that they do receive a foretaste of where they are destined. It is betwee the particular judgement and the Last Judgement that we see prayers for the dead being efficacious (because, with the exception of the saints - and we don't pray for them but ask their prayers, they aren't actually in heaven or hell yet). That doesn't mean that we believe in Purgatory as the RCs do, though. That idea has been rejected by us several times in different councils.

James
 
James the Persian

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Katzpur said:
I believe that Matthew 25:31-32 is speaking of the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-13. Hebrews 9:27 merely states that the judgment will come after death. That pretty much goes without saying. It doesn't, however, say how soon after death it will take place. I believe in an immediate judgment, too, but it's not the one in which our ultimate fate will be determined. It is a sort of a preliminary separation of the righteous from the wicked. I suppose it even bears a slight resemblance to the concept of Purgatory. I'll have to see what I can dig up to show that the early Christians believed in this same preliminary judgement and a later, final judgment. I know I've got some information on the topic. I'm just not sure what I have online.
Click to expand...

What you mention (though without further details it's hard to say for certain) sounds identical to the views of the early Church and of us. It's also identical to the RCs if you drop the idea of Purgatory which, in any case, is a much later (post-Schism) development. I think that's why Victor says that he and you have no real disagreement.

James
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
JamesThePersian said:
Ours is almost the same. We don't believe (this may actually be the same as you, though the wording above does not seem quite the same) that people receive their full reward etc. after the particular judgement (for one thing they haven't yet been resurrected in the body) but that they do receive a foretaste of where they are destined. It is betwee the particular judgement and the Last Judgement that we see prayers for the dead being efficacious (because, with the exception of the saints - and we don't pray for them but ask their prayers, they aren't actually in heaven or hell yet). That doesn't mean that we believe in Purgatory as the RCs do, though. That idea has been rejected by us several times in different councils.

James
Click to expand...
That's interesting. I guess the Latter-day Saints are closer to the Roman and Orthodox Catholics on this particular doctrine than I realized. Thanks to both you and Victor for your comments.
 
michel

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Katzpur said:
When do you anticipate standing before God to be judged? Is it at the moment you die, or later on? If it's at the moment you die, and you are sent to Heaven, what's the point of the Final Judgment as described in the book of Revelation? Is that so that God can change His mind if He thinks He may have made a mistake in allowing you into Heaven?
Click to expand...

As you know, I am a 'weird' Christian; I believe that it will be at the end of all my lives, and, "The final Judgement" is not a "O.K, shall I pass this guy or fail him ?" type of situation, but more like a graduation process.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top