Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
Perhaps so. It is a period of my life that I still do not understand. Perhaps I never will?
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Mormon Scholarship
- Thread starter Ellen Brown
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Perhaps so. It is a period of my life that I still do not understand. Perhaps I never will?
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
As far as I am concerned, in a discussion like this, Jews carry the big stick.
I'd be interested in your opinion of The Book of Ezekiel? For a long time, I've felt that major Christian Denominations have watered down and made meaningless major passages. I am convinced that Ezekiel saw something that flew, animal, machine or God, I do not know.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I don't think that visions are things people see with their eyes. I think they are things people see with their mind's eyes. It's when you envision something and it becomes especially clear and vivid -- the colors, the details, and other sensory information. It's almost as if you are seeing it.
I'm not an expert on the prophets. The prophets hold very little interest for me. They basically just instruct us to repent and obey the Torah. There are certain passages that I've been forced to form opinions on because Christian missionaries make a big deal about them.
When I think of Ezekiel, the only things I really remember are the valley of dry bones, and that it discusses the messianic era a little bit, such as God returning all Jews to the Land, restoring the priesthood, rebuilding the temple, etc.
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
Perhaps it is my very healthy and passionate imagination. When I read parts of Ezekiel, I see things that move me.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Well, I think that's wonderful.Perhaps it is my very healthy and passionate imagination. When I read parts of Ezekiel, I see things that move me.
Prestor John
Well-Known Member
The LDS Church believes that the angels mentioned in the scriptures and all of Mankind are the literal children of God.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes, this is correct. But then the Church of Jesus Christ of the LDS actually believes that God has a literal body, (not to mention that it is henatheistic rather than monotheistic, even a muddied monotheism) which makes it substantially different than all the other monotheistic faiths.
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
Even when I was with the Mormons, I always felt that if the Creator was going to be G_d, then he could be in any state "he" wished. I've wondered if he was genderless, but if that was so, then why have man and woman? I'll never have all the answers. Perhaps it is enough for me to learn to walk meekly beside the Creator?
I would refer to both the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and traditional Creedal Christianity as being monotheistic, but a more complex version of monotheism than say Islam. Both the CoJSoLDS and Creedal Christianity believe that there is ONE God, consisting of three persons whom have both physical and spiritual components. For CoJSoLDS, they are one through unity, and Creedal Christianity through homoousios.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Hi Jane.
It is simply not true that Mormonism is monotheistic by any stretch of the word. Mormon missionaries are the ones who explained to me what henatheism was in the first place. God the Father is just not the only deity in the LDS. For example, Jesus is also a deity. Every LDS male has the potential to become a deity. God the Father is simply the god of THIS world, hence he is the god that the LDS worship. That's classic henatheism. This is what the LDS have taught me.
Need to do some big picture explaining here, because they are very much big picture concept and not the most intuitive -- (obviously explaining from the LDS POV)--
The Father and Son are two different person. One, two. They are ONE God through unity: to honor the Father is to honor the Son. To obey to the Son is to obey the Father. The Father's ways are the Son's ways. The Son's love is the Father's love. Etc. Same with the Spirit. You cannot choose to separate them and follow just the Father and disobey the Son or anything like that.
When a person (male or female) reaches their final mansion in Heaven, they shall be ONE with God. Have the honor, will, ways, love, throne, etc. No child ever replaces the Father, but instead joins with Him and (through unity) becomes ONE with Him.
This differs from henotheism because henotheism lacks this unity factor.
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
I'd agree.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
All of these "isms" are beside the point. The only reason for applying a label to the LDS understanding of the nature of God is to try to discredit our theology when, in fact, it is clearly more in line with what the New Testament actually teaches than the Nicene Creed is. In the New Testament, in John 17, Jesus says that He and His Father are "one," but nowhere does He imply that they are part of a single physical substance. As a matter of fact, a straightforward reading of the text makes it abundantly clear that they are "one" in will and purpose.
We believe in a Godhead comprised of three distinct individuals, all of whom share the title of "God." They are "one" in every conceivable way except for the physical. Pretty much any dictionary will give "God" as a synonym for "Godhead." Since Godhead is a collective noun, much like "team," it is entirely logical to refer to the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost as "God" -- both individually and collectively. (Oh, and by the way, it is not only males who have the potential to become deities. Females have this potential as well. Perhaps the Mormon missionaries left this out.)
At any rate, there are actually numerous instances in the scriptures where the word "one" is found to denote a unity which is not physical:
Exodus 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do."
2 Corinthians 13:11 "Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."
Acts 4:32 "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common."
In each of these examples, the word "one" is used to describe a unity that has nothing to do with the numeral "1" or, in fact, to physical unity. When Jesus Christ prayed to His Father that His followers would be "one" as He and His Father were "one," I don't believe He was suggesting that we all be absorbed into a single substance. Two people can remain physically distinct from each other and still be "one" in heart, will, purpose, etc. Even the Book of Mormon states that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one God."
"And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end." (2 Nephi 31:21)
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Correct!
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Labels are for distinguishing, clarifying, and classifying. They tell us what vegetable is in the can.
Look, if henatheism sets you apart, I would think from your point of view you would be happy with that. After all you claim to be the one true church. It's more of a problem when other religions believe the same stuff than if you are the sole believer if you are going to go around making the claim to be the sole proprieter of the truth. So be happy, and simply state that monotheism is incorrect, and henatheism is the way to go.
Except that henotheism is incorrect lacks this unity factor which is the entire central idea.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
They also work very well when the intent is to marginalize, which it almost always is in any discussion of Mormonism.
I'd much rather be set apart with the simple facts of what we believe instead of with an inaccurately applied label.
I get what you're saying, IndigoChild, but as Jane.Doe pointed out, henotheism (it's spelled with an 'o', by the way, not an 'a') the absolute unity which exists between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost in LDS theology simply does not exist in any other belief system. The term "henotheism" is not widely used to actually describe any actual belief system that I'm aware of. It has been used, though, in academic discussions about how various religions evolved and developed. The best example of evolution in religious though is perhaps Greco-Roman religions, which began as polytheism and then become henotheistic over time. While multiple deities were acknowledged, Zeus eventually came to be seen as the supreme ruler and presiding over the entire pantheon of gods.
You apparently have an easier time accepting traditional Christianity as being monotheistic than you do accepting Mormonism as being theistic, and I can't help but think that this gets back to all of the mumbo-jumbo of the Nicene Creed. Talk about jumping through hoops to make everybody happy! And the Athanasian Creed gets even worse. It's like there was some kind of a contest going on to see who could come up with the most complicated explanation of God. If the teachings of Jesus Christ had never been hellenized, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. It kind of reminds me of a joke I once heard:
Jesus said, Whom do men say that I am?
And his disciples answered and said, Some say you are John the Baptist returned from the dead; others say Elias, or other of the old prophets.
And Jesus answered and said, But whom do you say that I am?
Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as His rationality and then, by an act of His will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only on the fact that Scripture speaks of a Father, and a Son, and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member, and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, but an economic subordination within God, a division which makes the substance no longer simple."
And Jesus answering, said, "What?"
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There is no "absolute" unity between Father, Son, and HS in the LDS. If there were, the Father and Son would be the same person.
Not at all. Multiple people can indeed by unified as one.
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
In more than one place, the Father and son are separate. One is where he is Baptized and comes out of the water. G_d says, "This is my son, in whom I am well pleased". I am often unsure of the role of the Holy Spirit because there seems to be no physical body, but often I have the sense of being spoken to or instructed, usually in the morning just as I am wakening. Most people just try to explain that away but I am not seeking an explanation. It just is.