Do Baha'i believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit can cure the Leper?

TransmutingSoul · Jan 17, 2019

spirit_of_dawn said:
The followers of the Bab wreaked havoc in Iran following these teachings and killed hundreds of people until the government finally crushed them.

What great distortions people are capable of. The Babi were never crushed then or now, or have you not yet noticed that?

It took the muslim divines to breaking their oaths on the Quran to defeat the Babi.

Would you like to quote what the Quran days about breaking oaths?

There is history recorded about these times and the instigator of the conflicts were the Muslim, again the Quran is available to see who was just and who was not.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus · Jan 17, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The Laws in the Bayan were subject to the approval and implementation of Baha'u'llah. To which the turmoil of the times were never implemented prior to Baha'u'llah revealing the Most Holy Book. That Most Holy Book then became the laws for this age.

There is no offical translation of the Bayan at this time, there are approved extracts.

You can gain great insight into metaphor by reading prophecy and then the challenge given in the Bayan.

But you can also interpret it by providing a translation that does not consider the purpose of the Message of the Bab.

Much like a Christain giving their ideas as to Quranic verses.

Regards Tony

But are those quotes of the Bayan accurate?

spirit_of_dawn · Jan 18, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The Laws in the Bayan were subject to the approval and implementation of Baha'u'llah.

There is no such thing in the writings of the Bab just wishful Baha'i thinking.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
To which the turmoil of the times were never implemented prior to Baha'u'llah revealing the Most Holy Book.

Look at Persian history and the Barbarism committed by the Babis and you will clearly see that they were implemented.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
That Most Holy Book then became the laws for this age.

With laws similar to those of the Bab like burning those that commit arson to death.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
There is no offical translation of the Bayan at this time, there are approved extracts.

Baha'i fear of the Bab's barbaric and sometimes even insane and meaningless laws being exposed.

spirit_of_dawn · Jan 18, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
What great distortions people are capable of. The Babi were never crushed then or now, or have you not yet noticed that?

It took the muslim divines to breaking their oaths on the Quran to defeat the Babi.

Would you like to quote what the Quran days about breaking oaths?

There is history recorded about these times and the instigator of the conflicts were the Muslim, again the Quran is available to see who was just and who was not.

Regards Tony

They were not crushed? The wars that they created in line with the Bab's laws have been clearly mentioned in Baha'i history books. However, Baha'is never mention the Bab's laws in this regard and make it look like the Persians were killing Babis for no reason. Even Edward Browne who was British and had nothing to the with Persian government recorded their barbarism:

"During this revolt the Bábís took up a fortified position 10 or 12 miles from Bárfurúsh, at the shrine of Shaykh Tabarsí, near the river Tálár; they were few in number, but determined and fanatic, and after putting several envoys of the authorities to death, they prepared for a siege by collecting provisions from the neighbouring country; whenever the villagers hesitated or refused to give what they required, their houses were burnt about their ears." (Professor Edward Browne, Materials for the Study of the Babi Religion, p. 241 (circa. 1918))"

TransmutingSoul · Jan 18, 2019

spirit_of_dawn said:
There is no such thing in the writings of the Bab just wishful Baha'i thinking.

The Bab mentions the One Whom God will Make Manifest often in the Bayan, the Bab wrote about whom God would make manifest;

"Out of utter nothingness, O great and omnipotent Master, Thou hast, through the celestial potency of Thy might, brought me forth and raised me up to proclaim this Revelation. I have made none other but Thee my trust; I have clung to no will but Thy Will. Thou art, in truth, the All-Sufficing and behind Thee standeth the true God, He Who overshadoweth all things...." Selections from the Writings of the Báb, p. 59.

"..In 1848, only two years before His martyrdom, the Báb revealed the Bayan, the book which was to serve as the principal repository of his laws and the fullest expression of His theological doctrines. Essentially the book is an extended tribute to the coming Promised One, now invariably termed “Him Whom God will make manifest.” The latter designation occurs some 300 times in the book, appearing in virtually every one of its chapters, regardless of their ostensible subject. The Bayan and all it contains depend upon His Will; the whole of the Bayan contains in fact “nought but His mention”; the Bayan is “a humble gift” from its Author to Him Whom God will make manifest; to attain His Presence is to attain the Presence of God. He is “the Sun of Truth,” “the Advent of Truth,” “the Point of Truth,” “the Tree of Truth” (Persian Bayán, unpublished manuscript. References to units and chapters 7.1; 5.7; 4.1; and 7.11. )

The Bab also wrote;

"..I swear by the most holy Essence of God--exalted and glorified be He--that in the Day of the appearance of Him Whom God shall make manifest a thousand perusals of the Bayan cannot equal the perusal of a single verse to be revealed by Him Whom God shall make manifest..." Selections from the Writings of the Báb, p. 104.

Baha'u'llah has thus written;

"Our exalted Herald — may the life of all else besides Him be offered up for His sake — hath revealed certain laws. However, in the realm of His Revelation these laws were made subject to Our sanction, hence this Wronged One hath put some of them into effect by embodying them in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas in different words. Others We set aside. He holdeth in His hand the authority. He doeth what He willeth and He ordaineth whatsoever He pleaseth. He is the Almighty, the All-Praised. There are also ordinances newly revealed. Blessed are they that attain. Blessed are they that observe His precepts." Ishráqát (TB:132)

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Jan 18, 2019

spirit_of_dawn said:
Baha'i fear of the Bab's barbaric and sometimes even insane and meaningless laws being exposed.

There is no fear for any Baha'i. The Babs dispensation fulfilled its aim, its highest confirmation in the Message of Baha'u'llah, the One whom God made Manifest.

Those that try to silence the Bab and Baha'u'llah are those that fear the power their words contain. Nothing would had happened if people had not embraced the Bab's Message, but they were accepting the message in their thousands with an ever increasing rate.

Thus do we accept the view of those that out of greed and want of power did their utmost to extinguish the cause, or do we look at the hearts and intent of those that accepted the new message.

I know which one I chose to accept as the Truthful version.

Peace be with you, you are welcome for a cuppa and cake anytime

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Jan 18, 2019

spirit_of_dawn said:
They were not crushed? The wars that they created in line with the Bab's laws have been clearly mentioned in Baha'i history books. However, Baha'is never mention the Bab's laws in this regard and make it look like the Persians were killing Babis for no reason. Even Edward Browne who was British and had nothing to the with Persian government recorded their barbarism:

"During this revolt the Bábís took up a fortified position 10 or 12 miles from Bárfurúsh, at the shrine of Shaykh Tabarsí, near the river Tálár; they were few in number, but determined and fanatic, and after putting several envoys of the authorities to death, they prepared for a siege by collecting provisions from the neighbouring country; whenever the villagers hesitated or refused to give what they required, their houses were burnt about their ears." (Professor Edward Browne, Materials for the Study of the Babi Religion, p. 241 (circa. 1918))"

The full story is here

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 324-378

Regards Tony

Niblo · Jan 18, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Hello Niblo, great to hear from you it has been a while.

Who am I to condemn Allah's Messengers

Hello Tony,

Yes, it’s been a while. I trust you are well and happy.

With respect, I was not condemning the Messengers of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla); I was condemning
the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh.

May Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) bless you and your family.

TransmutingSoul · Jan 18, 2019

CG Didymus said:
But are those quotes of the Bayan accurate?

Without an official translation, I can not answer your question. If there is an official translation, then that is what I would read, as that translation would be the best available.

Regards Tony

Niblo said:
Hello Tony,

Yes, it’s been a while. I trust you are well and happy.

With respect, I was not condemning the Messengers of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla); I was condemning
the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh.

May Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) bless you and your family.

Thank you Niblo, Allah has indeed blessed my family with an undying faith, that Allah Doeth as He Willeth.

Peace be with you.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus · Jan 18, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Without an official translation, I can not answer your question. If there is an official translation, then that is what I would read, as that translation would be the best available.

So then, what Niblo is quoting from is not a translation but is in the original language? So anyone that can read those languages has access to the Bayan?

TransmutingSoul · Jan 18, 2019

CG Didymus said:
So then, what Niblo is quoting from is not a translation but is in the original language? So anyone that can read those languages has access to the Bayan?

Yes the Bayan is available in the original language. What others have quoted are mostly unofficial translations, most likely by those that are not aware of the intent of the message of the Bab.

@Sen McGlinn can explain this better. Sen most likely stays away from these futile OP's.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus · Jan 19, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Yes the Bayan is available in the original language. What others have quoted are mostly unofficial translations, most likely by those that are not aware of the intent of the message of the Bab.

@Sen McGlinn can explain this better. Sen most likely stays away from these futile OP's.

Regards Tony

Well, they are not futile. It's all part of "investigating" what's the truth. The Bab is the one that Baha'is say fulfilled some of the prophecies that were supposed to be fulfilled by Jesus. So that makes him the Return of Christ. Which means what he said is very important. If it's anything like those quotes, however, then I can understand why the Baha'is wouldn't want that information out there. But, if he's a messenger of God. Then what he said came from God. Why isn't it translated for all of us to see?

spirit_of_dawn · Jan 19, 2019

CG Didymus said:
Well, they are not futile. It's all part of "investigating" what's the truth. The Bab is the one that Baha'is say fulfilled some of the prophecies that were supposed to be fulfilled by Jesus. So that makes him the Return of Christ. Which means what he said is very important. If it's anything like those quotes, however, then I can understand why the Baha'is wouldn't want that information out there. But, if he's a messenger of God. Then what he said came from God. Why isn't it translated for all of us to see?

They also claim the Bab was the Mahdi of Islam who was supposed to fill the earth with peace and justice once and for all and then rule this peaceful world. Do you see peace and justice anywhere?

TransmutingSoul · Jan 19, 2019

CG Didymus said:
Well, they are not futile. It's all part of "investigating" what's the truth. The Bab is the one that Baha'is say fulfilled some of the prophecies that were supposed to be fulfilled by Jesus. So that makes him the Return of Christ. Which means what he said is very important. If it's anything like those quotes, however, then I can understand why the Baha'is wouldn't want that information out there. But, if he's a messenger of God. Then what he said came from God. Why isn't it translated for all of us to see?

spirit_of_dawn said:
They also claim the Bab was the Mahdi of Islam who was supposed to fill the earth with peace and justice once and for all and then rule this peaceful world. Do you see peace and justice anywhere?

It was the Bab that was the Gate to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah and I would offer the most peaceful group of people on this planet, with the least prejudices, with a love of all people of Faith or no Faith are the Baha'i.

It is the world of Humanity that has rejected the Most Great Peace and the Lesser Peace. Meanwhile the Baha'i work at building loving strong communities that have no prejudices.

The Baha'i Community has always offered itself as an example and will do into the future.

We will have to wait and see if others will embrace these vibrant communities.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus · Jan 19, 2019

spirit_of_dawn said:
They also claim the Bab was the Mahdi of Islam who was supposed to fill the earth with peace and justice once and for all and then rule this peaceful world. Do you see peace and justice anywhere?

That's the big problem with Baha'u'llah also. Where's the peace? If the Bible said in the prophecies that Christ will come back, die and the world would go through two world wars and continue to be on the verge of a third world war... then why would anyone look forward to that?

Niblo · Jan 22, 2019

adrian009 said:
...................

Hello Adrian.

I trust you are well.

Some time ago you claimed that you – as a Baha’i – ‘believe all of the Qur'an and each of the Gospels.’ I stated that this is impossible. You disagreed.

I asked you three questions concerning Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām):

First: Was he crucified or not?

You replied: ‘No. The account in the Quran is metaphorical.’

The ‘No’ suggests that you are denying the Gospel accounts. Can this really be the case?

In what way is the Qur’anic account metaphorical? Please justify this claim, with supporting evidence from the text itself.

Second: Did he arise from the tomb or not?

You replied: ‘No. The account in the gospels is allegorical.’

Please justify this claim, with supporting evidence from the text itself.

Third: Which account of his birth is correct: the Gospel account or the Qur'anic account?

You replied: ‘Jesus was born to a virgin Mary. He was not physically the 'son of god' as the Quran correctly states, but had the messianic designation 'Son of God' as the Gospels clearly relay.’

This does not address my question at all. I was asking about the nativity narratives. Which is correct – the accounts given in the Gospels, or that given in the Qur’an?

Very best regards.

Niblo.

TransmutingSoul · Jan 22, 2019

CG Didymus said:
That's the big problem with Baha'u'llah also. Where's the peace? If the Bible said in the prophecies that Christ will come back, die and the world would go through two world wars and continue to be on the verge of a third world war... then why would anyone look forward to that?

I see the Bible does offer an alternate view of how it will happen, this is one passage;

Revelation 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

We are in that Judgement and the time of great change is approaching. God allows us to choose our path.

Look at Luke 17:5, "But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation." This is applicable to all of Gods Messengers.

God gives us a chance to change, prior to the events that will happen, if we choose to reject that Message.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus · Jan 22, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I see the Bible does offer an alternate view of how it will happen, this is one passage;

Revelation 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

We are in that Judgement and the time of great change is approaching. God allows us to choose our path.

Look at Luke 17:5, "But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation." This is applicable to all of Gods Messengers.

God gives us a chance to change, prior to the events that will happen, if we choose to reject that Message.

Regards Tony

Revelations seems to be saying that all the bad stuff happens and then the Christ returns. Because Baha'u'llah has already come and gone, and there is still wars and major disasters, it gives many, especially Christians, and probably Muslims too, that the Christ hasn't come yet. So the language in the prophecies is misleading, since it makes it sound like the Christ will establish peace and not just talk about it and leave it up to people to implement it.

TransmutingSoul · Jan 22, 2019

CG Didymus said:
Revelations seems to be saying that all the bad stuff happens and then the Christ returns. Because Baha'u'llah has already come and gone, and there is still wars and major disasters, it gives many, especially Christians, and probably Muslims too, that the Christ hasn't come yet. So the language in the prophecies is misleading, since it makes it sound like the Christ will establish peace and not just talk about it and leave it up to people to implement it.

I think our misconception here is that we will get no choice and that it all unfolds on a timeline as we would hope and expect. But a day apart being used as a year can also be a thousand years in the Bible. Thus the Day of God where this peace unfolds could very well be in the 1000 years after Christ Returns.

It does say that Christ will come like a thief if one is not ready.

I do not see prophecy as a chronological series of events. My thought is they are timeless and in one way and another unflold with each Message, some in a spiritual manner, some in a material manner.

Baha'u'llah says every Messenger brings a New Heaven and a New Earth with each Message from God.

Baha'ullah brought the potential of the most Great Peace on a worldly scale, as promised by the holy Books. He offered that to the entire world. The rejection of the Most Great Peace was our choice as humanity.

I think the key is does the Message given by Baha'u'llah contain what Christ promised and firstly and most importantly did Baha'u'llah live such a life beside teaching such a life?

A couple to consider.

The Bible promised that there will be One God and His Name One. Baha'u'llah lived and taught this Truth.

The Bible promisses One Fold One Shepherd of the many flocks not of the Christain Fold. Baha'u'llah lived and taught this Truth.

The Bible promisses a world peace. Baha'u'llah lived and taught this Truth.

It will all unfold in this reality, it has unfolded in all hearts that accept the Message of Baha'u'llah.

Of course the above is all my opinion.

Regards Tony

Dawnofhope · Jan 22, 2019

Niblo said:
Hello Adrian.

I trust you are well.

Some time ago you claimed that you – as a Baha’i – ‘believe all of the Qur'an and each of the Gospels.’ I stated that this is impossible. You disagreed.

I asked you three questions concerning Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām):

First: Was he crucified or not?

You replied: ‘No. The account in the Quran is metaphorical.’

The ‘No’ suggests that you are denying the Gospel accounts. Can this really be the case?

In what way is the Qur’anic account metaphorical? Please justify this claim, with supporting evidence from the text itself.

Hi Niblo,

I'm well though have been very busy so I am yet to respond to an earlier post of yours. I hope all is good with you and your family. once again, I appreciate having a Muslim on RF who is prepared to engage in discussion about Muslim belief.

I was wondering if you would mind me starting a separate thread exploring this theme and we could discuss further?

Regardless...

Baha'is are clear. We believe Jesus was crucified as recorded in the gospels.

My post #144 was a little ambiguous so sorry about that.

The text of the Quran simply needs an adequate translation which I included in psot #141

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;

Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158

Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia

I can see how you would interpret this literally to mean He was not crucified, but can you see how I could interpret figuratively to mean it was His spirit and Cause they did not kill?

From the above link it is clear that some Islamic scholars also view this verse figuratively:

Ja'far ibn Mansur al-Yaman (d. 347 AH/958 CE), Abu Hatim Ahmad ibn Hamdan al-Razi (d. 322 AH/935 CE), Abu Yaqub al-Sijistani (d. 358 AH/971 CE), Mu'ayyad fi'l-Din al-Shirazi (d. 470 AH/1078 CE ) and the group Ikhwan al-Safa also affirm the historicity of the Crucifixion, reporting Jesus was crucified and not substituted by another man as maintained by many other popular Qur'anic commentators and Tafsir.[9]

In reference to the Quranic quote "We have surely killed Jesus the Christ, son of Mary, the apostle of God", Muslim scholar Mahmoud Ayoub asserts this boast not as the repeating of a historical lie or the perpetuating of a false report, but an example of human arrogance and folly with an attitude of contempt towards God and His messenger(s). Ayoub furthers what modern scholars of Islam interpret regarding the historical death of Jesus, the man, as man's inability to kill off God's Word and the Spirit of God, which the Quran testifies were embodied in Jesus Christ. Ayoub continues highlighting the denial of the killing of Jesus as God denying men such power to vanquish and destroy the divine Word. The words, "they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him" speaks to the profound events of ephemeral human history, exposing mankind's heart and conscience towards God's will. The claim of humanity to have this power against God is illusory. "They did not slay him...but it seemed so to them" speaks to the imaginations of mankind, not the denial of the actual event of Jesus dying physically on the cross.[11]

Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia

Do Baha'i believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit can cure the Leper?

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