GoodbyeDave
Well-Known Member
Well, that was a profound post — how long did it take?
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The Lesson of Job.
- Thread starter Ellen Brown
- Start date
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
This is what I get out of Job.
We don't see the reasons why God allows the suffering of the righteous. It appears to us to be unjust.
If ever there were a person God was going to tell the reason for it, it would have been Job, but even Job did not receive an answer.
Job got something MORE than an answer. Job got the Answerer. God appeared to him in a whirlwind. That EXPERIENCE was so full of fear and awe and love that the need for an answer faded away.
If you had a choice, the answer to the question of why good people suffer, or a personal encounter with God, which would you want? I'll take the personal encounter any day.
BTW, this isn't something I figured out on my own. I read it somewhere, and would like to give credit, but can't remember which of the gazillion places I read it (or even if it was Jewish).
We don't see the reasons why God allows the suffering of the righteous. It appears to us to be unjust.
If ever there were a person God was going to tell the reason for it, it would have been Job, but even Job did not receive an answer.
Job got something MORE than an answer. Job got the Answerer. God appeared to him in a whirlwind. That EXPERIENCE was so full of fear and awe and love that the need for an answer faded away.
If you had a choice, the answer to the question of why good people suffer, or a personal encounter with God, which would you want? I'll take the personal encounter any day.
BTW, this isn't something I figured out on my own. I read it somewhere, and would like to give credit, but can't remember which of the gazillion places I read it (or even if it was Jewish).
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EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
So, you are willing to sacrifice your children in order to play Yahweh's game with Satan? Interesting . . .
WalterTrull
Godfella
74x12
Well-Known Member
In Hebrew there is no possessive. "mine" "your" etc. It's just whatever is "unto you". God owns everything and appoints it to you. (Job 1:21)
nPeace
Veteran Member
The account of Job apparently gives us an open widow into an ongoing issue that ensued as mentioned in the first Biblical account.
Genesis 3:1-5
The wicked angel called Devil (Slanderer) and Satan (Resister / Opposer) had a clear objective.
Is it really so, God said...? What?
No. You will not die. God is a liar.
God knows that when you eat, you will be like him. He wickedly restricts your freedom.
Satan called God a liar, and imputed bad motives to him, implying that God was unfairly holding back good from them - harshly restricting them. Doesn't sound like a good ruler does he?
Clearly Satan directly challenged the authority, or sovereignty of God, and in so doing he opposed worship to God.
Obviously, it was Satan's intent to turn the human race against their creator. Why? The answer is found in Matthew 4:9 (Notice that Satan was actually begging for it)
So Satan selfishly craved worship. He wanted humans to worship him. Likely he was already urging on a few of the angels to follow him as leader.
So the account of Job, is a piece of the puzzle God provided.
Satan was seeking, not the worship of a few humans, but every last one.
Just follow the Biblical history, and we see that.
1. (Genesis 5:24) . . .Enoch kept walking with the true God. Then he was no more, for God took him.
Why did God take Enoch? The answer - Jude 14, 15
2. (Genesis 6:9) This is the history of Noah. Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the true God.
Why did God wipe out mankind and spare Noah? Genesis 6:1-8
Throughout history, Satan was involved in turning mankind against Jehovah, and the few he couldn't own, were under threat.
2 Peter 2:4-10
The same is true today. The vast majority of humankind has been turned aside from righteousness, and now follow Satan, against anyone who dares to remain a lover of righteousness, and faithful to God.
Looking through this open window in the book of Job, we see that.
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. He was an upright man of integrity; he feared God and shunned what was bad.
Satan must have been fuming... What?
Job 1:8, 9
8 And Jehovah said to Satan: “Have you taken note of my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad.” 9 At that Satan answered Jehovah: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God?
Job 2:4, 5
4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”
We know the rest of the account.
It reveal Satan's aim - to turn all persons away from God.
The account also reveals that Jehovah allows it, but it doesn't reveal why - Why does Jehovah allow Satan to carry out his wicked intentions?
Well, as we can see from scripture, the apostle Paul's words are true - 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,
When we consider all the scriptures, we see how each "puzzle piece" fits together to give us a complete picture.
This is what is so amazing about the Bible, so that really, those who want to understand it, can do so... if they humbly want to.
So for that other piece of the puzzle - Why does God allow Satan to carry out his wicked deeds?
See this link, and you can also look here, and here.
All in all, the book of Job, not only teaches us that God's word is harmonious, and reliable, but it teaches us vital lessons - 1. Jehovah takes note of those who love righteousness, and he supports them. 2. Satan is an enemy of all who love God, and righteousness, and will stop at nothing to break their integrity to God, and try to make them compromise their faith - even using loved ones (Job's wife) to get them to give up. 3. When suffering, don't think that God has left you, and don't give up. Endure. 4. Those who remain faithful to God, will be blessed abundantly.
Genesis 3:1-5
The wicked angel called Devil (Slanderer) and Satan (Resister / Opposer) had a clear objective.
Is it really so, God said...? What?
No. You will not die. God is a liar.
God knows that when you eat, you will be like him. He wickedly restricts your freedom.
Satan called God a liar, and imputed bad motives to him, implying that God was unfairly holding back good from them - harshly restricting them. Doesn't sound like a good ruler does he?
Clearly Satan directly challenged the authority, or sovereignty of God, and in so doing he opposed worship to God.
Obviously, it was Satan's intent to turn the human race against their creator. Why? The answer is found in Matthew 4:9 (Notice that Satan was actually begging for it)
So Satan selfishly craved worship. He wanted humans to worship him. Likely he was already urging on a few of the angels to follow him as leader.
So the account of Job, is a piece of the puzzle God provided.
Satan was seeking, not the worship of a few humans, but every last one.
Just follow the Biblical history, and we see that.
1. (Genesis 5:24) . . .Enoch kept walking with the true God. Then he was no more, for God took him.
Why did God take Enoch? The answer - Jude 14, 15
2. (Genesis 6:9) This is the history of Noah. Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the true God.
Why did God wipe out mankind and spare Noah? Genesis 6:1-8
Throughout history, Satan was involved in turning mankind against Jehovah, and the few he couldn't own, were under threat.
2 Peter 2:4-10
4 Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment. 5 And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people. 6 And by reducing the cities of Sodʹom and Gomorrah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come. 7 And he rescued righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the brazen conduct of the lawless people— 8 for day after day that righteous man was tormenting his righteous soul over the lawless deeds that he saw and heard while dwelling among them. 9 So, then, Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment, 10 especially those who seek to defile the flesh of others and who despise authority.. . .
Looking through this open window in the book of Job, we see that.
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. He was an upright man of integrity; he feared God and shunned what was bad.
Satan must have been fuming... What?
Job 1:8, 9
8 And Jehovah said to Satan: “Have you taken note of my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad.” 9 At that Satan answered Jehovah: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God?
Job 2:4, 5
4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”
We know the rest of the account.
It reveal Satan's aim - to turn all persons away from God.
The account also reveals that Jehovah allows it, but it doesn't reveal why - Why does Jehovah allow Satan to carry out his wicked intentions?
Well, as we can see from scripture, the apostle Paul's words are true - 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,
When we consider all the scriptures, we see how each "puzzle piece" fits together to give us a complete picture.
This is what is so amazing about the Bible, so that really, those who want to understand it, can do so... if they humbly want to.
So for that other piece of the puzzle - Why does God allow Satan to carry out his wicked deeds?
See this link, and you can also look here, and here.
All in all, the book of Job, not only teaches us that God's word is harmonious, and reliable, but it teaches us vital lessons - 1. Jehovah takes note of those who love righteousness, and he supports them. 2. Satan is an enemy of all who love God, and righteousness, and will stop at nothing to break their integrity to God, and try to make them compromise their faith - even using loved ones (Job's wife) to get them to give up. 3. When suffering, don't think that God has left you, and don't give up. Endure. 4. Those who remain faithful to God, will be blessed abundantly.
Curious George
Veteran Member
Job is a book. Satan is not the same character that are in later books. It wpuld be a mistake to think that any lesson in Job was contingent upon later renditions of a character.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Why should I believe you?
Curious George
Veteran Member
Why should you not? Did I say something you think untrue?
If you take later books to explain an earlier text, you are not giving a lesson of the earlier text. Rather, you are giving a lesson about the earlier text derived from the later books. The "lesson of Job" would to have been present before the earlier books as they were not added. The alternative is that there is no "lesson of Job" and only a lesson about Job in the Bible. That is fine if that is your position however, you should explain why we should not consider Job apart from the later books as the most sensical approach would be to do so.
What in Job indicates an incompleteness?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
NAY!
the sons of God did gather and with them came the devil
in the scheme of old text.....it was God that objected....
From whence comest thou?!!!!
in more modern terms.....
What the hell are you doing here?!!!!!
no.....God's Favored had fallen
no longer holding place among the sons of God
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Uhmm . . . no
In English the possessive pronouns are “my”, “your”, “his”, “her”, “its”, “our” and “their”.
Here are the possessive pronouns in Hebrew:
Hebrew Vocabulary זֶה הַבַּיִת שֶׁלִי
Possessives כִּינוּיֵי־הַקִּנְיָן
Singular Plural
1 שֶׁלִי שֶׁלָנוּ
2 m שֶׁלְךָ שֶׁלָכֵם
2 f שֶׁלָךְ שֶׁלָכֵן*
3 m שֶׁלוֹ שֶׁלָהֵם
3 f שֶׁלָה שֶׁלָהֵן*
You must mean in Judaism there is no personal possessions, that your god owns everything.
Which I personally find disturbing.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
and God said to the devil......
Have you considered the LEAST of my servants? ....Job
this is an insult to the face of the devil
not worthy to be compared to the sons of God
not even worthy to the least of servants
it was not a wager that followed
God had nothing to prove
Job had nothing to prove
God knew His servant
it was the devil ....attempting to prove himself
as knowing the nature of a Man
more so than God would know
Have you considered the LEAST of my servants? ....Job
this is an insult to the face of the devil
not worthy to be compared to the sons of God
not even worthy to the least of servants
it was not a wager that followed
God had nothing to prove
Job had nothing to prove
God knew His servant
it was the devil ....attempting to prove himself
as knowing the nature of a Man
more so than God would know
nPeace
Veteran Member
You gave me no reason to.
Well you responded to my post above, and contradicted what I said, so whom do you think I would say is untrue?
The book of Job is part of the earlier text, and is not an explanation, but an event occurring with, alongside, or after the other events. It does not then make it foreign to them.
Think of an event that occurs today.
One news article covers the story, and includes particular events that occurred.
Another news article covers the same story, and includes other details not mentioned in the previous article.
Both articles, are accurate. One article fills in missing details.
The Bible is a complete book of a collection of scrolls, written by men who claimed in their writings, to be inspired of God. In some cases, references are made by one writer to another.
You have not given me a reason to believe what you say as opposed to what is evidently a reliable source of true knowledge.
For all I know, you could be one of those persons used to mislead the faithful.
What can you give me to show otherwise? Why should I believe you?
No. Why should I believe that?
74x12
Well-Known Member
Yes they are translated as possessive into English and that's not really incorrect. But in the literal Biblical Hebrew the meaning is really "to me" etc. So what we would say is "your house" would be "the house that is to you".
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
When I made my deal with God, I drew the line there. I said that if he took my kids I would crumble and go crazy, but that he could do whatever else he chose to do.
Curious George
Veteran Member
We are definitely not going to come to an understanding if one of us is analyzing Satan as a historical figure.
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Disturbing stance on life . . . IMO
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
That's part but not the whole.. Job was a poster child of a proverbial wise man... but that didn't stop the trials from coming.. God was sovereign in the story.
God has a purpose in suffering that is not always punishing evil.
"He delivers the afflicted by their affliction and opens their ear by adversity."
Jon 36:15
The strange case of Job, poster child of the proverbially wise
God has a purpose in suffering that is not always punishing evil.
"He delivers the afflicted by their affliction and opens their ear by adversity."
Jon 36:15
The strange case of Job, poster child of the proverbially wise
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Not if you are willing to do whatever it takes to be a Tzaddik, 100% God's.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
Wisdom is complex and sometimes the righteous suffer.
God calls Job his servant at the start of the book
God calls Job his servant at the end of the book
Job also points to an ultimate righteous one suffering. In the deepest darkest time of Job's suffering, God's 'suffering servant' gives intersession for sinners then God raised him up. A picture of Jesus.
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