The Logic Of Salvation, NOT!

Skwim · Jan 21, 2019

"The Bible specifically says, without any other possible interpretation, that there is only one God, one faith, one baptism, and one way to God the Father – and that is only through His Son Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross.

Jesus says that He, and only He, is the way, the truth, and the life leading to God the Father and that no one comes to the Father except through Him!

If you choose not to believe in Jesus Christ and His message of eternal salvation through His death on the cross, then you will die in your sins and go straight to hell when you die – no if, ands, or buts about it!

Choose Jesus Christ and the blood that He has personally shed for you on the cross – and you will then become saved and born again – and you will then enter into the most incredible place imaginable when you die – heaven itself!

Choose anyone or anything else, and you will cross over into the most horrible place imaginable when you die – hell itself, and then eventually into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone after the Millennium has taken place, where the Bible says that the smoke of your torment will ascend forever and ever!"
source

According to this, all those throughout the world who have never heard of Jesus are SOL. They're headed to Hell. So what do you think, Fair? I don't think so.

According to this anyone who, for whatever reason, remains unconvinced of the "message," and rejects the threat is also SOL and headed toward hell. This is true even if the source of the information is an incompetent nincompoop of a preacher who failed miserably in selling the Jesus/Salvation story. OR a person who simply remains unconvinced of the argument for sin/salvation. In either case where should the blame lie? Is it one's fault that the nincompoop failed in his attempt to make a sale? Is it one's fault that no one has ever presented a convincing argument for the message? I don't think so.

But god does.

Never heard of the salvation story? Too bad.

Never convinced that the salvation story held water? Too bad.

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Deeje · Jan 21, 2019

Skwim said:
"The Bible specifically says, without any other possible interpretation, that there is only one God, one faith, one baptism, and one way to God the Father – and that is only through His Son Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross.

Jesus says that He, and only He, is the way, the truth, and the life leading to God the Father and that no one comes to the Father except through Him!

If you choose not to believe in Jesus Christ and His message of eternal salvation through His death on the cross, then you will die in your sins and go straight to hell when you die – no if, ands, or buts about it!

Choose Jesus Christ and the blood that He has personally shed for you on the cross – and you will then become saved and born again – and you will then enter into the most incredible place imaginable when you die – heaven itself!

Choose anyone or anything else, and you will cross over into the most horrible place imaginable when you die – hell itself, and then eventually into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone after the Millennium has taken place, where the Bible says that the smoke of your torment will ascend forever and ever!"
source

According to this, all those throughout the world who have never heard of Jesus are SOL. They're headed to Hell. So what do you think, Fair? I don't think so.

According to this anyone who, for whatever reason, remains unconvinced of the "message," and rejects the threat is also SOL and headed toward hell. This is true even if the source of the information is an incompetent nincompoop of a preacher who failed miserably in selling the Jesus/Salvation story. OR a person simply remains unconvinced of the argument for sin/salvation. In either case where should the blame lie? Is it one's fault that the nincompoop failed in his attempt to make a sale? Is it one's fault that no one has ever presented a convincing argument for the message? I don't think so.

But god does.

Never heard of the salvation story? Too bad.

Never convinced that the salvation story held water? Too bad.

View attachment 26586
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Christendom's version of salvation is as sick as any other false religion that fries people in hell.

So what do you want? Jesus' version of salvation or the devil's? There are only two sources of information.

There is no such place as Christendom's hell. And Jesus promised a resurrection for all.....both the righteous and the unrighteous will be called from their graves. (John 5:28-29; Acts of the Apostles 24:15) Those who never heard about Jesus will get their chance to make their choice.

If you let the Bible answer your questions instead of ignorant fools who horribly misrepresent him, then you might not have to ask these kinds of questions so often.

EverChanging · Jan 21, 2019

Skwim said:
"The Bible specifically says, without any other possible interpretation, that there is only one God, one faith, one baptism, and one way to God the Father – and that is only through His Son Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross.

Jesus says that He, and only He, is the way, the truth, and the life leading to God the Father and that no one comes to the Father except through Him!

If you choose not to believe in Jesus Christ and His message of eternal salvation through His death on the cross, then you will die in your sins and go straight to hell when you die – no if, ands, or buts about it!

Choose Jesus Christ and the blood that He has personally shed for you on the cross – and you will then become saved and born again – and you will then enter into the most incredible place imaginable when you die – heaven itself!

Choose anyone or anything else, and you will cross over into the most horrible place imaginable when you die – hell itself, and then eventually into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone after the Millennium has taken place, where the Bible says that the smoke of your torment will ascend forever and ever!"
source

According to this, all those throughout the world who have never heard of Jesus are SOL. They're headed to Hell. So what do you think, Fair? I don't think so.

According to this anyone who, for whatever reason, remains unconvinced of the "message," and rejects the threat is also SOL and headed toward hell. This is true even if the source of the information is an incompetent nincompoop of a preacher who failed miserably in selling the Jesus/Salvation story. OR a person simply remains unconvinced of the argument for sin/salvation. In either case where should the blame lie? Is it one's fault that the nincompoop failed in his attempt to make a sale? Is it one's fault that no one has ever presented a convincing argument for the message? I don't think so.

But god does.

Never heard of the salvation story? Too bad.

Never convinced that the salvation story held water? Too bad.

View attachment 26586
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I'm amused that the author of that piece thinks there is no other possible interpretation. There are all sorts of interpretations of the Bible -- various traditionalist theologies that are quite different from fundamentalist takes, especially Eastern perspectives, liberal theologies, esoteric interpretations, and I'm sure there are more.

The possibility of multiple interpretations is threatening to fundamentalists. Less so to some varieties of traditionalism and particularly liberal or esoteric streams of thought.

Saint Frankenstein · Jan 21, 2019

That's a fundie Evangelical Protestant take on it. Catholicism and Orthodoxy have far more nuanced and developed takes on salvation, as they are the oldest Christian traditions.

Skwim · Jan 21, 2019

EverChanging said:
I'm amused that the author of that piece thinks there is no other possible interpretation. There are all sorts of interpretations of the Bible -- various traditionalist theologies that are quite different from fundamentalist takes, especially Eastern perspectives, liberal theologies, esoteric interpretations, and I'm sure there are more.

The possibility of multiple interpretations is threatening to fundamentalists. Less so to some varieties of traditionalism and particularly liberal or esoteric streams of thought.

I take it you don't believe it's necessary to take Jesus as one's savior so as to avoid hell (get into heaven). Interesting.

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beenherebeforeagain · Jan 21, 2019

Animist here: when we die, we go to live with the ancestors in the Spirit World. At least a part of each of us does. They really don't care what you believed while you lived, or what you believe after you join them.

I'm fairly certain that another part of each individual gets reintarnated and comes back to live in this world. unless they reach enlightenment...

And I think another part stops being "us" and moves on to become part of others...

Rational Agnostic · Jan 21, 2019

Skwim said:
"The Bible specifically says, without any other possible interpretation, that there is only one God, one faith, one baptism, and one way to God the Father – and that is only through His Son Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross.

Jesus says that He, and only He, is the way, the truth, and the life leading to God the Father and that no one comes to the Father except through Him!

If you choose not to believe in Jesus Christ and His message of eternal salvation through His death on the cross, then you will die in your sins and go straight to hell when you die – no if, ands, or buts about it!

Choose Jesus Christ and the blood that He has personally shed for you on the cross – and you will then become saved and born again – and you will then enter into the most incredible place imaginable when you die – heaven itself!

Choose anyone or anything else, and you will cross over into the most horrible place imaginable when you die – hell itself, and then eventually into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone after the Millennium has taken place, where the Bible says that the smoke of your torment will ascend forever and ever!"
source

According to this, all those throughout the world who have never heard of Jesus are SOL. They're headed to Hell. So what do you think, Fair? I don't think so.

According to this anyone who, for whatever reason, remains unconvinced of the "message," and rejects the threat is also SOL and headed toward hell. This is true even if the source of the information is an incompetent nincompoop of a preacher who failed miserably in selling the Jesus/Salvation story. OR a person simply remains unconvinced of the argument for sin/salvation. In either case where should the blame lie? Is it one's fault that the nincompoop failed in his attempt to make a sale? Is it one's fault that no one has ever presented a convincing argument for the message? I don't think so.

But god does.

Never heard of the salvation story? Too bad.

Never convinced that the salvation story held water? Too bad.

View attachment 26586
.
.

Good post. Well, based on the evangelical Christian criterion for salvation, all of the Old Testament heroes like King David, Abraham, et. al are also going to hell since they obviously couldn't have believed in Jesus. But another issue is defining what "belief" is and how it is measured. "Belief" is an un-precisely defined mental state, but what threshold is needed to avoid damnation? Does one need to be certain that the Christian propositions are true, or just moderately confident?

Deeje · Jan 21, 2019

Hubert Farnsworth said:
Good post. Well, based on the evangelical Christian criterion for salvation

That is Christendom's take, but certainly not what the Bible teaches. There is no "heaven or hell" scenario in the OT or the NT.

Israel was given the choice between life or death (Deuteronomy 30:19)....that's all there is. When Jesus came he offered some "life" in heaven, but only as assistants in his Kingdom. The rest of mankind would benefit from their rulership on earth....some by surviving the end times and others by resurrection.

all of the Old Testament heroes like King David, Abraham, et. al are also going to hell since they obviously couldn't have believed in Jesus.

Oh but they did. Messiah was in their scripture for centuries. They all looked forward to his kingdom. These ones sleep in death awaiting the time when Jesus as King of that kingdom calls them from their graves for their reward, serving him again in the earthly realms of God's great spiritual Temple. (John 5:28-29; Acts of the Apostles 24:15)

But another issue is defining what "belief" is and how it is measured. "Belief" is an un-precisely defined mental state, but what threshold is needed to avoid damnation? Does one need to be certain that the Christian propositions are true, or just moderately confident?

This is why we need faith.....defined in Hebrews 11:1 as...."the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."

But you are right..."belief" is something we really need to understand.

James 2:17-19 gives us food for thought on that subject....
"....faith by itself, without works, is dead.
18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder."

If the demons "believe and shudder".....what does that mean for Christians? Is "belief" the thing that saves anyone? Obviously not so we have to translate thoughts (beliefs) into action and live according to what we profess to believe. That is how we demonstrate what we Aussies call being "fair dinkum"......practicing what you preach. Not being a hypocrite.

osgart · Jan 21, 2019

Deeje said:
Christendom's version of salvation is as sick as any other false religion that fries people in hell.

So what do you want? Jesus' version of salvation or the devil's? There are only two sources of information.

There is no such place as Christendom's hell. And Jesus promised a resurrection for all.....both the righteous and the unrighteous will be called from their graves. (John 5:28-29; Acts of the Apostles 24:15) Those who never heard about Jesus will get heir chance to make their choice.

If you let the Bible answer your questions instead of ignorant fools who horribly misrepresent him, then you might not have to ask such these kinds of questions so often.

So what then is damnation?

Deeje · Jan 21, 2019

osgart said:
So what then is damnation?

There is no such thing. No one is "damned".....hell and damnation, fire and brimstone are scare tactics used by men who needed to control their flocks by fear. Jesus never used those tactics...he won people over with love....appealing to logic and reason, and using well known scriptures.....not emotional hype.

There will be a judgment for those alive in "the time of the end" when the message of the Kingdom was to be preached for a witness to all the nations before "the end" of the present system of things was to come (Matthew 24:14).....but even those who oppose the message, are given repeated opportunity to change their minds. No one has to be judged unworthy of life unless they choose to ignore God's warning. It's like denying that a tsunami is coming despite experiencing an earthquake and hearing all the sirens going off and Emergency Service workers knocking on doors making sure people know what's coming. They can't force people to heed the warning or even to listen, but at least they have tried to give them the message. Their life after that is in their own hands.

According to the Bible, there is a figurative "tsunami" (a great tribulation) coming that is more powerful than any tsunami ever experienced on earth, (Matthew 24:21) yet people ignore the messengers because they simply don't believe them. Some might say that they didn't like the way the messenger delivered the warning, or criticized them in some other way to excuse their lack of response. Nothing will stop what is coming, and pride will not save a single soul. Just as Noah preached to the masses in his day but not a single person listened....so it will be when Christ returns. (Matthew 24:37-39) Just a few survived the end of that world.....again a relative "few" will survive this one. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Hockeycowboy · Jan 22, 2019

Skwim said:
If you choose not to believe in Jesus Christ and His message of eternal salvation through His death on the cross, then you will die in your sins and go straight to hell when you die

But... everyone goes to Hell \ Sheol when they die. -- Ecclesiastes 9:10....
"Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening." Douay-Rheims Bible...
Darby Translation says: "Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest."
{< Do only bad people read this?>}

Jacob said he was going to Hell \ Sheol when he died. -- Genesis 42:38 says: "But he said: My son shall not go down with you: his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if any mischief befall him in the land to which you go, you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to hell."
Douay-Rheims Bible.

It was prophesied at Psalms 16:10, that Jesus would be in Hell (for 3 days) after he died. "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thy Holy One to see corruption." -- Webster's Bible Translation. -- Peter verified it. -- Acts of the Apostles 2:29-32 says: "Men and brothers, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day.
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
he seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses." -- American KJV.
(All Scriptures from BibleHub.)

It's pretty clear, from just these few Scriptures, that what mainstream christendom teaches about Hell, is not what the Bible really says about it!

EverChanging · Jan 22, 2019

Skwim said:
I take it you don't believe it's necessary to take Jesus as one's savior so as to avoid hell (get into heaven). Interesting.

.

My take on these matters is informed by various lenses through which I interpret the Christian mythos, and I have an esoteric bent.

But even some traditionalist theologies found in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and among some Anglicans and others, do not say anything as simplistic as that. They would affirm that all are saved through Jesus, but that some will be saved who do not explicitly proclaim Jesus as their Savior. Plenty of figures from the Hebrew Bible are revered as saints, after all.

Skwim · Jan 22, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
But... everyone goes to Hell \ Sheol when they die. -- Ecclesiastes 9:10....
"Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening." Douay-Rheims Bible...
Darby Translation says: "Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest."
{< Do only bad people read this?>}

Jacob said he was going to Hell \ Sheol when he died. -- Genesis 42:38 says: "But he said: My son shall not go down with you: his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if any mischief befall him in the land to which you go, you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to hell."
Douay-Rheims Bible.

It was prophesied at Psalms 16:10, that Jesus would be in Hell (for 3 days) after he died. "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thy Holy One to see corruption." -- Webster's Bible Translation. -- Peter verified it. -- Acts of the Apostles 2:29-32 says: "Men and brothers, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day.
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
he seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses." -- American KJV.
(All Scriptures from BibleHub.)

It's pretty clear, from just these few Scriptures, that what mainstream christendom teaches about Hell, is not what the Bible really says about it!

So if everyone ends up in hell, then what is ones faith in Jesus supposed to do for a person? Where does the salvation part fit in?

.

Hockeycowboy · Jan 22, 2019

Skwim said:
So if everyone ends up in hell, then what is ones faith in Jesus supposed to do for a person? Where does the salvation part fit in?

.

Good question....the future Resurrection.

Hockeycowboy · Jan 22, 2019

The Bible is silent on many details of the Resurrection, but it will be a joyous time! We know that even the unrighteous will be brought back to life. But judgment will come, as to whether they will stay unrighteous, or if they'll make changes.

Skwim · Jan 22, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
Good question....the future Resurrection.

So everyone ends up suffering in hell until

1) everyone is resurrected, I assume to heaven.
OR
2) some people (those, I assume, who accepted Jesus as their lord and savior) are resurrected to heaven, while the rest are left behind to continue suffering in hell.

Number 1 or 2?

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Hockeycowboy · Jan 22, 2019

Skwim said:
So everyone ends up suffering in hell until

1) everyone is resurrected, I assume to heaven.
OR
2) some people (those, I assume, who accepted Jesus as their lord and savior) are resurrected to heaven, while the rest remain in hell to suffer.

Number 1 or 2?

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There is no suffering in Hell; it is simply the grave. "The dead know nothing." -- Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:3-4.

If the ' wicked ' dead are suffering, then that means they're conscious....they are alive. That means they can't be resurrected;they are already alive!

So teaching that idea, negates the resurrection. The need for it.

Skwim · Jan 22, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
There is no suffering in Hell; it is simply the grave. "The dead know nothing." -- Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:3-4.

In light of Luke 16;22-24, 27-28 that's kind of interesting,

“And it came to pass that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. ~ Luke 16:22-24

"Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.” ~ Luke 16: 27-28

If the ' wicked ' dead are suffering, then that means they're conscious....they are alive. That means they can't be resurrected;they are already alive!

Ah, gotta know how you're using the word "alive" here. Logically, something can't be both dead and alive at the same time. They're mutually exclusive concepts.

.

osgart · Jan 22, 2019

Deeje said:
There is no such thing. No one is "damned".....hell and damnation, fire and brimstone are scare tactics used by men who needed to control their flocks by fear. Jesus never used those tactics...he won people over with love....appealing to logic and reason, and using well known scriptures.....not emotional hype.

There will be a judgment for those alive in "the time of the end" when the message of the Kingdom was to be preached for a witness to all the nations before "the end" of the present system of things was to come (Matthew 24:14).....but even those who oppose the message, are given repeated opportunity to change their minds. No one has to be judged unworthy of life unless they choose to ignore God's warning. It's like denying that a tsunami is coming despite experiencing an earthquake and hearing all the sirens going off and Emergency Service workers knocking on doors making sure people know what's coming. They can't force people to heed the warning or even to listen, but at least they have tried to give them the message. Their life after that is in their own hands.

According to the Bible, there is a figurative "tsunami" (a great tribulation) coming that is more powerful than any tsunami ever experienced on earth, (Matthew 24:21) yet people ignore the messengers because they simply don't believe them. Some might say that they didn't like the way the messenger delivered the warning, or criticized them in some other way to excuse their lack of response. Nothing will stop what is coming, and pride will not save a single soul. Just as Noah preached to the masses in his day but not a single person listened....so it will be when Christ returns. (Matthew 24:37-39) Just a few survived the end of that world.....again a relative "few" will survive this one. (Matthew 7:13-14)

So refusing Jesus is like ceasing to exist?

Or perhaps dying in a brutal way?

Xax · Jan 22, 2019

Skwim said:
"The Bible specifically says, without any other possible interpretation, that there is only one God, one faith, one baptism, and one way to God the Father – and that is only through His Son Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross.

Jesus says that He, and only He, is the way, the truth, and the life leading to God the Father and that no one comes to the Father except through Him!

If you choose not to believe in Jesus Christ and His message of eternal salvation through His death on the cross, then you will die in your sins and go straight to hell when you die – no if, ands, or buts about it!

Choose Jesus Christ and the blood that He has personally shed for you on the cross – and you will then become saved and born again – and you will then enter into the most incredible place imaginable when you die – heaven itself!

Choose anyone or anything else, and you will cross over into the most horrible place imaginable when you die – hell itself, and then eventually into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone after the Millennium has taken place, where the Bible says that the smoke of your torment will ascend forever and ever!"
source

According to this, all those throughout the world who have never heard of Jesus are SOL. They're headed to Hell. So what do you think, Fair? I don't think so.

According to this anyone who, for whatever reason, remains unconvinced of the "message," and rejects the threat is also SOL and headed toward hell. This is true even if the source of the information is an incompetent nincompoop of a preacher who failed miserably in selling the Jesus/Salvation story. OR a person simply remains unconvinced of the argument for sin/salvation. In either case where should the blame lie? Is it one's fault that the nincompoop failed in his attempt to make a sale? Is it one's fault that no one has ever presented a convincing argument for the message? I don't think so.

But god does.

Never heard of the salvation story? Too bad.

Never convinced that the salvation story held water? Too bad.

View attachment 26586
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It is a nonsensical scenario.

The Logic Of Salvation, NOT!

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