Something I can't get to grips with...........

michel · Oct 2, 2006

Until I came to this forum, I had never understood that any Faith believed in "Resurection of the Body" as being the physical body.

To me, resurection was the 'soul' leaving the body, and (forgetting my other beliefs in reincarnation) going to heaven.

I know know that certain Faiths believe that the body means "The body" - literally. I guess the only 'evidence' of a body being resurected is that of Jesus Christ. For example, when both my mother and Father died, their bodies were still here (and both were cremated).

So, how important to your faith is the resurection of the physical body ? If you were to believe that the physical isn't in fact resurected, would that change the way you look at your faith ?

Katzpur · Oct 2, 2006

michel said:
Until I came to this forum, I had never understood that any Faith believed in "Resurection of the Body" as being the physical body.

To me, resurection was the 'soul' leaving the body, and (forgetting my other beliefs in reincarnation) going to heaven.

The word "resurrection" means "to raise back from the dead or to come back to life." Check any dictionary. You have been using the word to mean the exact opposite of that. The spirit (soul) doesn't die when the body dies. It simply leaves the body. When a person is resurrected, his spirit reunites with the body and gives it new, eternal life.

I know know that certain Faiths believe that the body means "The body" - literally. I guess the only 'evidence' of a body being resurected is that of Jesus Christ.

And that's not enough "evidence" for you? If it isn't, what about the many who were resurrected immediately after Jesus. Matthew 27:52-53 states that "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

For example, when both my mother and Father died, their bodies were still here (and both were cremated).

It makes do difference. Whether a person returns to dust within hours or years, eventually it happens. The miracle of the resurrection is that the body will be restored to its eternally perfect state. It doesn't happen immediately after death, though. It happens when Christ returns for His millennial reign.

So, how important to your faith is the resurection of the physical body ? If you were to believe that the physical isn't in fact resurected, would that change the way you look at your faith ?

It's extremely important. I want to be able to hug my parents again and to look into their eyes and see their smiles. I can't even conceive of an existence where that was impossible. If I weren't to believe in a physical resurrection, I wouldn't believe in a resurrection at all, because a resurrection IS physical. That's what it means, and that's what Christianity is all about.

michel · Oct 2, 2006

Katzpur said:
The word "resurrection" means "to raise back from the dead or to come back to life." Check any dictionary. You have been using the word to mean the exact opposite of that. The spirit (soul) doesn't die when the body dies. It simply leaves the body. When a person is resurrected, his spirit reunites with the body and gives it new, eternal life.

And that's not enough "evidence" for you? If it isn't, what about the many who were resurrected immediately after Jesus. Matthew 27:52-53 states that "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

It makes do difference. Whether a person returns to dust within hours or years, eventually it happens. The miracle of the resurrection is that the body will be restored to its eternally perfect state. It doesn't happen immediately after death, though. It happens when Christ returns for His millennial reign.

It's extremely important. I want to be able to hug my parents again and to look into their eyes and see their smiles. I can't even conceive of an existence where that was impossible. If I weren't to believe in a physical resurrection, I wouldn't believe in a resurrection at all, because a resurrection IS physical. That's what it means, and that's what Christianity is all about.

I understand what you have said, but (for me) some of it doesn't 'gel'.
for me, Jesus Christ's resurection was something so tremendously unusual (as was his life), that I would not consider what happened to him as being applicable to us.

It's extremely important. I want to be able to hug my parents again and to look into their eyes and see their smiles. I can't even conceive of an existence where that was impossible. If I weren't to believe in a physical resurrection, I wouldn't believe in a resurrection at all, because a resurrection IS physical. That's what it means, and that's what Christianity is all about

Now, there, I agree with you, but most likely, for different reasons.

I believe that in death, our souls can 'assume' any shape or form. I too hope to give my parents a hug when I die.

I 'talk' to them regularly; I visualize them in my mind (and sometimes therefore see them as they were just before their death); many a time have I been 'talking' to my mother, noticed she looked old and crippled (as she was towards the end)......and say "For goodness' sake, Mum, why don't you make yourself look younger!"...and, of course, she does.

The 'Practical' reasoning (as far as I am concerned); will we need sustenance in heaven ? (ie, if we have corporeal bodies), will we still need to eat ? Will there be waste, as we have here on Earth, when we have eaten ?

Drink ? will there be a real bar somewhere in heaven you can walk into and ask for a double scotch, on the rocks ?........somehow, I don't see heaven in that light.

Katzpur · Oct 2, 2006

michel said:
I understand what you have said, but (for me) some of it doesn't 'gel'.
for me, Jesus Christ's resurection was something so tremendously unusual (as was his life), that I would not consider what happened to him as being applicable to us.

Well, it applied to those individuals in the verses I quoted. Why them and not us?

Now, there, I agree with you, but most likely, for different reasons.

I believe that in death, our souls can 'assume' any shape or form. I too hope to give my parents a hug when I die.

Well, if you're going to give them a hug, they're going to have to be physical beings. And if you're going to recognize them, they're going to have to appear in human form.

The 'Practical' reasoning (as far as I am concerned); will we need sustenance in heaven ? (ie, if we have corporeal bodies), will we still need to eat ? Will there be waste, as we have here on Earth, when we have eaten?

I never said we would be "mortal" again. We won't. We'll be "immortal." Immortals beings, by definition, would not need food and drink, sleep, or anything else we need to sustain life.

Basically, Michel, I think that resurrection and reincarnation are mutually exclusive. I know you believe we are reincarnated after death. Since one can't be both resurrected and reincarnated, I'd suggest that you just not worry about the idea that resurrection doesn't "gel" with you.

Booko · Oct 2, 2006

michel said:
So, how important to your faith is the resurection of the physical body ? If you were to believe that the physical isn't in fact resurected, would that change the way you look at your faith ?

Baha'u'llah wrote extensively on the meaning of "resurrection" and to go into it in any length here would be...too much. To make a really short version of it, there are 2 kinds of resurrection -- the individual and the "Day of Judgement" sort. For the Day of Judgement sort, Baha'u'llah explains this "resurrection" is what happens whenever a Prophet appears. For the individual variety:

Such things have come to pass in the days of every Manifestation of God. Even as Jesus said: "Ye must be born again."[1] Again He saith: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."[2] The purport of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto "life" and "resurrection" and have entered into the "paradise" of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to "death" and "deprivation," to the "fire" of unbelief, and to the "wrath" of God. In all the scriptures, the books and chronicles, the sentence of death, of fire, of blindness, of want of understanding and hearing, hath been pronounced against those whose lips have tasted not the ethereal cup of true knowledge, and whose hearts have been deprived of the grace of the holy Spirit in their day. . Even as it hath been previously recorded: "Hearts have they with which they understand not."[3]
[1 John 3:7].
[2 John 3:5-6]
[3 Qur'án 7:178].

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 117)

Booko · Oct 2, 2006

jmoum said:
Baha'is see resurection in a slightly different light. I'll go into details about it later when I have the time. That is, if someone else doesn't beat me to it first.

Could we start a thread on this in the Baha'i DIR area? The topic is pretty extensive, and I don't think we've ever discussed it there. It would be nice to get the other Baha'is in on it. Some of them don't venture out of the Baha'i area too much, as they're on lots of other forums and don't have much time to devote to here.

Booko · Oct 2, 2006

michel said:
So, how important to your faith is the resurection of the physical body ? If you were to believe that the physical isn't in fact resurected, would that change the way you look at your faith ?

Baha'u'llah wrote extensively on the meaning of "resurrection" and to go into it in any length here would be...too much. To make a really short version of it, there are 2 kinds of resurrection -- the individual and the "Day of Judgement" sort. For the Day of Judgement sort, Baha'u'llah explains this "resurrection" is what happens whenever a Prophet appears. For the individual variety:

Such things have come to pass in the days of every Manifestation of God. Even as Jesus said: "Ye must be born again."[1] Again He saith: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."[2] The purport of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto "life" and "resurrection" and have entered into the "paradise" of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to "death" and "deprivation," to the "fire" of unbelief, and to the "wrath" of God. In all the scriptures, the books and chronicles, the sentence of death, of fire, of blindness, of want of understanding and hearing, hath been pronounced against those whose lips have tasted not the ethereal cup of true knowledge, and whose hearts have been deprived of the grace of the holy Spirit in their day. . Even as it hath been previously recorded: "Hearts have they with which they understand not."[3]
[1 John 3:7].
[2 John 3:5-6]
[3 Qur'án 7:178].

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 117)

Random · Oct 2, 2006

To me, Ressurection is the logical outcome of a process of reincarnation. One starts off with the Original Self which is soul-perfect, that is with a perfect mind and body bound in balance by puressence and spirit or awareness, then karmic causation or sin brings transformative death and rebirth in cycles until the soul is cleansed and purged of the compulsion to reincarnate and is reunited with or "made a pillar of" God, as Jesus said. In this way, the Original Self is returned to and brought back to life, or Raised from the ways of death: the cycles of growth, peak and decline through which one goes. I realize this is a very unorthodox and esoteric way of looking @ it, but its logical if the eternality of the Risen body is true.

Hacker · Oct 2, 2006

Godlike said:
To me, Ressurection is the logical outcome of a process of reincarnation. One starts off with the Original Self which is soul-perfect, that is with a perfect mind and body bound in balance by puressence and spirit or awareness, then karmic causation or sin brings transformative death and rebirth in cycles until the soul is cleansed and purged of the compulsion to reincarnate and is reunited with or "made a pillar of" God, as Jesus said. In this way, the Original Self is returned to and brought back to life, or Raised from the ways of death: the cycles of growth, peak and decline through which one goes. I realize this is a very unorthodox and esoteric way of looking @ it, but its logical if the eternality of the Risen body is true.

That's very interesting, I never thought of it that way!

Katzpur · Oct 2, 2006

Godlike said:
To me, Ressurection is the logical outcome of a process of reincarnation. One starts off with the Original Self which is soul-perfect, that is with a perfect mind and body bound in balance by puressence and spirit or awareness, then karmic causation or sin brings transformative death and rebirth in cycles until the soul is cleansed and purged of the compulsion to reincarnate and is reunited with or "made a pillar of" God, as Jesus said. In this way, the Original Self is returned to and brought back to life, or Raised from the ways of death: the cycles of growth, peak and decline through which one goes. I realize this is a very unorthodox and esoteric way of looking @ it, but its logical if the eternality of the Risen body is true.

But reincarnation is the rebirth of the soul in a different body. I am the combination of my body and soul. One of these entities without the other is incomplete, and if my soul were to be placed in an entirely different body -- and particularly an entire different lifeform, different species, etc. -- I would not be the same person as I am now.

Something I can't get to grips with...........

michel

Administrator Emeritus

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon

michel

Administrator Emeritus

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon

Booko

Deviled Hen

Booko

Deviled Hen

Booko

Deviled Hen

Random

Well-Known Member

Hacker

Well-Known Member

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon