How Bad Can Abortions Be If God Sanctions Them?

stvdv · Jan 20, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
The reason that you cannot take parts of the Bible literally is simply due to your own morals and refusing to believe that the God of the Bible does not have the same morals as you do. It is all but impossible to take the passage in the OP figuratively. It does represent the morals of the Hebrews at that time.

True, I do not believe in the God as pictured in the Bible. True it does represent the morals of the Hebrews at that time. Maybe it's "almost impossible in your opinion to take the OP figuratively". For me it is very much possible.

I love parables and Koans the best. For me a great teaching method. Different people learn different lessons from the same parables. Koans are used to teach people that Life is NOT about "taking things literally". It's about evolution, learning. Not about the goal, not even about truth. I love them.

QuestioningMind · Jan 20, 2019

Jollybear said:
We are both interpreting that verse differently. How surprising that is, huh? Lol.

God is not holding the babies or the next generation accountable. Hes not saying the babies DID the bad actions. Hes saying that the ripple effects of there parrents bad actions go down the time line. Now, of course if the next generation did not learn from history and repeat it, then the ripple effect continues. Its like a snowball on a high mountain. It keeps rolling and getting bigger and bigger. Then theres an avalanche.

Heres the thing too, a human government and a God being a government is not the same thing. With a human they got to juggle policy with freedom. We call this political science. With God, its a bit different. God does not just juggle policy with freedom, he designs the entire system in between. So, questions like 'do i make humans robots?' Or 'do i make them have the ability to choose?' Or 'if they choose, do i permit there decisions to effect others?'

Those are questions God can only ask. A human government cannot have that kind of power.

So, God designs the system where humans have the ability to choose and there choices have effects.

No, your not understanding this. God out of pure wisdom does not stop the effects of choices. Our choices are a seed that germinates and creates effects around us.

God does not directly punish and hold the children accountable for the actions of there parrents. Look and see > deuteronomy 24:16 "Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."

Is this a contradiction? No, its not. Remember, God is different then a human government. God does not just juggle policy with freedom, he juggles how the creation design itself must be.

So, heres how it works. God permits the EFFECTS of choices. But, there is no direct punishment on the children for the parrents sin or vise versa.

How it works is if we harden our own heart, then God gives us over to it, that giving over heardens it more. Remember, God is not a human government, this is a God your dealing with, hes a part of the whole fabric of reality. This includes the heart.

I dont believe everyone, most actually, are gonna be brainwashed to go kill the babies of slaves.

I live in the USA. If hypothetically trump and congress tomorow made an order to everyone to kill all babies of illegal immigrants because they will rise up and take over, i would not do it. I think. Many others would not either. Eccept for cowards.

Cowards get what they deserve. Yes, cowards deserve it. They are discusting humans.

We are both interpreting that verse differently.

No, we're not interpreting the words differently. You are simply ignoring what the words actually say. It does NOT say that the actions of the parents laid the sin upon the offspring. It says that GOD does not excuse the guilty and that HE (GOD) laid the sin upon the offspring. So it IS saying that God decided to deem them guilty, whether they did the action or not. God isn't telling people that these offspring might be tainted by what their ancestors did, God specifically indicates that they should suffer the same fate.

Blaming someone for what someone else did is WRONG and its sad to watch you twist logic into a pretzel in order to try and justify it.

God does not directly punish and hold the children accountable for the actions of there parrents.

Yet earlier you wrote: God has to forsake the wicked mothers children too because in this God teaches what happens when authority figures do evil, others under there care also pay by there evil actions.

So God DOES punish and hold the children accountable. You indicate that He HAS to in order to teach a lesson.

I dont believe everyone, most actually, are gonna be brainwashed to go kill the babies of slaves.

I live in the USA. If hypothetically trump and congress tomorow made an order to everyone to kill all babies of illegal immigrants because they will rise up and take over, i would not do it. I think. Many others would not either. Eccept for cowards.

Again, you appear to be absolutely clueless about how little power people living under a tyrant have. When Pharaoh decided to slaughter the children of slaves, do you imagine that he went to the common people and asked them if they'd be willing to and commit the killings? And if the common people had refused that the killings would not have taken place? Of course not! Pharaoh sent his soldiers to commit the slaughter and I suspect that 99% of the common peasants in Egypt either never even knew it happened or learned about it long after the fact.

Let's say that Trump decides to order the slaughter of all of the children being held at the border. YOU learn about this horrible atrocity a week afterwards. God looks down and decides He needs to punish Trump for his actions and does so by killing the first born son of every single American, regardless of whether or not they were even aware of what Trump had done. Would this be the action of a just and loving God? I suppose you could argue that since Trump was elected that the American population has some sort of responsibility... though I don't know how you'd justify punishing those who voted against him and have always been adamantly against his presidency.

But when it comes to the poor Egyptians, those unlucky folks had absolutely NO say at to who would be their tyrannical leader. They were people simply struggling to eke out a living in an often harsh and unforgiving world. But simply because they were born where they were - something they had no choice over - and just because they happened to be ruled by a violent tyrant - something they had absolutely no choice about - God decides that it is just and moral to kill their children because of what the violent tyrant they suffer under has done - again, something they had absolutely no control over.

It amazes me how people can claim that such actions by God are loving and just, when if a human being were to act in such a manner we'd label them as horribly immoral monsters.

Jollybear · Jan 20, 2019

QuestioningMind said:
We are both interpreting that verse differently.

No, we're not interpreting the words differently.

Yes, we are interpreting them differently. In fact wer interpreting them in polar oposite ways. And my interpretation is correct because i take into account the other scripture i gave you that said the children are not to be punished for the parrents sin. You on the otherhand have ignored that passage.

You are simply ignoring what the words actually say. It does NOT say that the actions of the parents laid the sin upon the offspring. It says that GOD does not excuse the guilty and that HE (GOD) laid the sin upon the offspring.

That is correct, God DESIGNED the system where peoples actions have EFFECTS on others. That also makes sense to do that as well. Only God can do this, a human government cannot do this. Its impossible for humans to do.

So it IS saying that God decided to deem them guilty, whether they did the action or not.

No, i completely disagree with you there.

God isn't telling people that these offspring might be tainted by what their ancestors did, God specifically indicates that they should suffer the same fate.

Actions have effects. Why is that hard to see? Let me use the USA as an example. The national debt, which is about 19 or 20 $ trillion. Thats caused by years of spending and over spending. We will pass that debt on down to the next generation and they will be burdened with it. So, our actions EFFECT the next generation. Do you see this?

You are in fact ignoring the words in the passage. Look again.

Exodus 34:7

"I lavish unfailing love to a thousand generations. I forgive iniquity, rebellion, and sin. But I do not excuse the guilty. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children and grandchildren; the entire family is affected--even children in the third and fourth generations."

Heres another translation that uses the word consequences.

"maintaining faithful love to a thousand generations, forgiving wrongdoing, rebellion, and sin. But He will not leave the guilty unpunished, bringing the consequences of the fathers' wrongdoing on the children and grandchildren to the third and fourth generation."

Contrast that with deuteronomy 24:16

"Parents must not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents. Those deserving to die must be put to death for their own crimes."

Theres a difference between direct punishment and the effects or consequences of actions. This is common sense.

Blaming someone for what someone else did is WRONG and its sad to watch you twist logic into a pretzel in order to try and justify it.

Yes, i agree, blaming someone else for someones wrong, this is wrong. But thats not whats going on here. I am not twisting anything. Im speaking common sense.

God does not directly punish and hold the children accountable for the actions of there parrents.

Click to expand...

Yet earlier you wrote: God has to forsake the wicked mothers children too because in this God teaches what happens when authority figures do evil, others under there care also pay by there evil actions.

So God DOES punish and hold the children accountable. You indicate that He HAS to in order to teach a lesson.

And you misunderstood my words. My words wer merely another way of saying actions have consequences or effects. Why is that hard to grasp?

I dont believe everyone, most actually, are gonna be brainwashed to go kill the babies of slaves.

I live in the USA. If hypothetically trump and congress tomorow made an order to everyone to kill all babies of illegal immigrants because they will rise up and take over, i would not do it. I think. Many others would not either. Eccept for cowards.

Click to expand...

Again, you appear to be absolutely clueless about how little power people living under a tyrant have. When Pharaoh decided to slaughter the children of slaves, do you imagine that he went to the common people and asked them if they'd be willing to and commit the killings? And if the common people had refused that the killings would not have taken place? Of course not! Pharaoh sent his soldiers to commit the slaughter and I suspect that 99% of the common peasants in Egypt either never even knew it happened or learned about it long after the fact.

Let's say that Trump decides to order the slaughter of all of the children being held at the border. YOU learn about this horrible atrocity a week afterwards. God looks down and decides He needs to punish Trump for his actions and does so by killing the first born son of every single American, regardless of whether or not they were even aware of what Trump had done. Would this be the action of a just and loving God? I suppose you could argue that since Trump was elected that the American population has some sort of responsibility... though I don't know how you'd justify punishing those who voted against him and have always been adamantly against his presidency.

But when it comes to the poor Egyptians, those unlucky folks had absolutely NO say at to who would be their tyrannical leader. They were people simply struggling to eke out a living in an often harsh and unforgiving world. But simply because they were born where they were - something they had no choice over - and just because they happened to be ruled by a violent tyrant - something they had absolutely no choice about - God decides that it is just and moral to kill their children because of what the violent tyrant they suffer under has done - again, something they had absolutely no control over.

It amazes me how people can claim that such actions by God are loving and just, when if a human being were to act in such a manner we'd label them as horribly immoral monsters.

If the soldiers of pharough did the killing, two things should have been done. The soldeirs should have disobeyed the order. They did not. What does that make them? Cowards. Second, the familys or friends of the soldeirs, the peasents, should have persuided them from the action. The egyptians still submitted to pharough and followed him, even after learning of this. They did not help isreal at all. They wer cowards. Some may have been deluded (like pharough) but deluded or coward, makes no difference, they are guilty either way.

QuestioningMind · Jan 20, 2019

QuestioningMind said:
We are both interpreting that verse differently.

No, we're not interpreting the words differently. You are simply ignoring what the words actually say. It does NOT say that the actions of the parents laid the sin upon the offspring. It says that GOD does not excuse the guilty and that HE (GOD) laid the sin upon the offspring. So it IS saying that God decided to deem them guilty, whether they did the action or not. God isn't telling people that these offspring might be tainted by what their ancestors did, God specifically indicates that they should suffer the same fate.

Blaming someone for what someone else did is WRONG and its sad to watch you twist logic into a pretzel in order to try and justify it.

God does not directly punish and hold the children accountable for the actions of there parrents.

Yet earlier you wrote: God has to forsake the wicked mothers children too because in this God teaches what happens when authority figures do evil, others under there care also pay by there evil actions.

So God DOES punish and hold the children accountable. You indicate that He HAS to in order to teach a lesson.

I dont believe everyone, most actually, are gonna be brainwashed to go kill the babies of slaves.

I live in the USA. If hypothetically trump and congress tomorow made an order to everyone to kill all babies of illegal immigrants because they will rise up and take over, i would not do it. I think. Many others would not either. Eccept for cowards.

Again, you appear to be absolutely clueless about how little power people living under a tyrant have. When Pharaoh decided to slaughter the children of slaves, do you imagine that he went to the common people and asked them if they'd be willing to and commit the killings? And if the common people had refused that the killings would not have taken place? Of course not! Pharaoh sent his soldiers to commit the slaughter and I suspect that 99% of the common peasants in Egypt either never even knew it happened or learned about it long after the fact.

Let's say that Trump decides to order the slaughter of all of the children being held at the border. YOU learn about this horrible atrocity a week afterwards. God looks down and decides He needs to punish Trump for his actions and does so by killing the first born son of every single American, regardless of whether or not they were even aware of what Trump had done. Would this be the action of a just and loving God? I suppose you could argue that since Trump was elected that the American population has some sort of responsibility... though I don't know how you'd justify punishing those who voted against him and have always been adamantly against his presidency.

But when it comes to the poor Egyptians, those unlucky folks had absolutely NO say at to who would be their tyrannical leader. They were people simply struggling to eke out a living in an often harsh and unforgiving world. But simply because they were born where they were - something they had no choice over - and just because they happened to be ruled by a violent tyrant - something they had absolutely no choice about - God decides that it is just and moral to kill their children because of what the violent tyrant they suffer under has done - again, something they had absolutely no control over.

It amazes me how people can claim that such actions by God are loving and just, when if a human being were to act in such a manner we'd label them as horribly immoral monsters.

Again, you're ignoring what the words actually say and pretending that they say something less offensive. It doesn't say that God claims the offspring of the sinners MIGHT be negatively affected by the acts of the sinner. God ENSURED that they will be negatively affected by laying the guilt of the sin upon them. God could have just as easily said that the parent of this child committed terrible sins and because of this this innocent child might easily suffer negative affects... but we should NOT lay the guilt of the parent's sin upon them. Instead He says the exact opposite. And the fact that there are other verses in the bible that contradicts this only serves to point out one of the many contradictions in the bible.

Jollybear said:
Yes, we are interpreting them differently. In fact wer interpreting them in polar oposite ways. And my interpretation is correct because i take into account the other scripture i gave you that said the children are not to be punished for the parrents sin. You on the otherhand have ignored that passage.

That is correct, God DESIGNED the system where peoples actions have EFFECTS on others. That also makes sense to do that as well. Only God can do this, a human government cannot do this. Its impossible for humans to do.

No, i completely disagree with you there.

Actions have effects. Why is that hard to see? Let me use the USA as an example. The national debt, which is about 19 or 20 $ trillion. Thats caused by years of spending and over spending. We will pass that debt on down to the next generation and they will be burdened with it. So, our actions EFFECT the next generation. Do you see this?

You are in fact ignoring the words in the passage. Look again.

Exodus 34:7

"I lavish unfailing love to a thousand generations. I forgive iniquity, rebellion, and sin. But I do not excuse the guilty. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children and grandchildren; the entire family is affected--even children in the third and fourth generations."

Heres another translation that uses the word consequences.

"maintaining faithful love to a thousand generations, forgiving wrongdoing, rebellion, and sin. But He will not leave the guilty unpunished, bringing the consequences of the fathers' wrongdoing on the children and grandchildren to the third and fourth generation."

Contrast that with deuteronomy 24:16

"Parents must not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents. Those deserving to die must be put to death for their own crimes."

Theres a difference between direct punishment and the effects or consequences of actions. This is common sense.

Yes, i agree, blaming someone else for someones wrong, this is wrong. But thats not whats going on here. I am not twisting anything. Im speaking common sense.

And you misunderstood my words. My words wer merely another way of saying actions have consequences or effects. Why is that hard to grasp?

If the soldiers of pharough did the killing, two things should have been done. The soldeirs should have disobeyed the order. They did not. What does that make them? Cowards. Second, the familys or friends of the soldeirs, the peasents, should have persuided them from the action. The egyptians still submitted to pharough and followed him, even after learning of this. They did not help isreal at all. They wer cowards. Some may have been deluded (like pharough) but deluded or coward, makes no difference, they are guilty either way.

Again, you're ignoring what the words actually say and pretending that they say something less offensive. It doesn't say that God claims the offspring of the sinners MIGHT be negatively affected by the acts of the sinner. God ENSURED that they will be negatively affected by laying the guilt of the sin upon them. God could have just as easily said that the parent of this child committed terrible sins and because of this this innocent child might easily suffer negative affects... but we should NOT lay the guilt of the parent's sin upon them. Instead He says the exact opposite. And the fact that there are other verses in the bible that contradicts this only serves to point out one of the many contradictions in the bible.

And again, you're completely ignoring just how powerless the common people are under an iron-fisted dictatorship. IF God had decided to punish the Egyptian nobility that supported the pharaoh and the soldiers that committed the killings or maybe even those who knew the soldiers involved and took no steps to intervene, THEN perhaps you could label such a punishment just. But that's NOT what God considered to be just and fair. God decided to punish every single Egyptian parent for the actions of others, actions that a significant percentage of those punished my not even have known about, let alone been in a position to stop.

And what do you mean when you say that they continued to submit to pharaoh and follow him, even after they had learned of what he'd done? What other option do you imagine they had? Common peasants under a directorial rule have little more power than slaves. You could just as easily ask why the Israelite slaves continued to submit to pharaoh after the slaughter of their children. Why didn't God also punish them for continuing to submit to Pharaoh? The answer is, they were powerless to do anything else, until God stepped in to intervene. The common Egyptian peasant was just as powerless to prevent Pharaoh from committing his atrocities, yet God saw fit to exact the exact same punishment upon them as the one who was actually responsible.

viole · Jan 21, 2019

Ellen Brown said:
OK. Something I do not understand and don't know how to process.

Well, maybe that book has been written by ancient people with barbaric and primitive habits, and not by God.

Apart from being the most plausible explanation, it would also explain a lot, wouldn’t it?

Ciao

- viole

Sand Dancer · Jan 24, 2019

Jollybear said:
This water was not poison. If she was innocent, she, nor a baby would die. If she was guilty, then her thigh would waste away. Most translations dont say miscarry. But, even if it was miscarry, if she would CONFESS her guilt before drinking, then thered be no need to drink it. Why? Because the PURPOSE behind the drink was NOT to kill the baby or her, it was to serve as a lie detector test.

So, if she did not want harm to come to her, shed best tell the truth instead of the truth comming out the hard way.

Basically, if her belly or baby got harmed, it was not Gods fault, it was HER FAULT.

Hows that for ya, huh?

Supposedly they did not mention genitals, they used the term "thigh" or "hip."

Sand Dancer · Jan 24, 2019

JJ50 said:
I bet it was ok for a bloke to cheat on his wife, though!

God supposedly got Mary pregnant when she was in a relationship with Joseph, that wasn't considered wrong!

I think a woman has an absolute right to an abortion, especially in the first trimester, if she does not want a child, for whatever reason.

A woman could not cry "adultery" either. A married or single man could have sex with a single woman, but not a married woman because that is an offense to a man's property.

JChnsc19 · Jan 28, 2019

Jollybear said:
Abusing kids was not permitted

Lot refused to give the angels to a perverted mob but offered his virgin daughters instead. This is the same man that is called just and righteous. Peter 2:7-8, 19:8.

God asked Abraham to kill his son. Genesis 22:2-13

How to sell your daughter. Exodus 21:7-8

Kill your child who curses you. Exodus 21:15, 17. Matthew 15: 4-7. Mark 7:9-10

BUT ABUSING KIDS WASN'T PERMITTED.

And btw, some of you have said some verses you can't take literally. How do you know which verses? Is the OT irrelevant? It can't be because of the 10 commandments and the concept of original sin-right?

Kelly of the Phoenix · Jan 30, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
I wonder how some of the men knew that their wife had cheated. Since many Hebrews were shepherds, and they might be away from home for a while, do you think that coming home to a pregnant wife might have been a hint that something was wrong?

And the woman is just to assume that the guy who spent days away from home never got some human or otherwise action, I guess.

blü 2 said:
Makes you wonder why these 'pro-life' Christians don't read their bibles.

And then there are all the pro-life men who pay for their mistresses' abortions.

Scott C. said:
God decides who lives and dies and makes the rules on when mere mortals should start or end a life.

And God can stop an abortion at any time should He desire it. It should be impossible to kill someone God wants alive.

TheresOnlyNow said:
The bet was this, for those who don't know. Satan was sure Job would renounce God, lose his deep faith and trust, were he plagued enough in his life by the machinations of the Devil.

See, I see the Book of Job as a text where Job is the MacGuffin or whatever. Satan is tempting GOD to see if GOD is willing to hurt or kill innocent people. God doesn't waste time proving that He will. He never says, "Screw you, jerk face, I'm God and I don't answer to you." He's like, "Oh, mess him up? That'd be cool. Let's do that."

TheresOnlyNow said:
Therefore, as pertains to the OP as I conclude this novelette, yes! The recipe described in Numbers was designed to cause a cheating wife who was suspected to be carrying the seed of another man not her husband to miscarry.

I wonder why she has to drink a potion to "prove" she cheated. Doesn't God see into the hearts of people? Why doesn't He know if she did or not?

The bible loves to claim powers for God but most of the plots don't make sense if He actually had those powers.

QuestioningMind said:
And then you want to take that same immoral philosophy and apply it to entire nations. You do realize that the pharaoh was a totalitarian ruler whose word was law, right? It's not as if the people of Egypt got together and voted to mistreat the Israelite people. It was pharaoh - whose heart was 'hardened' by God by the way - who was responsible. So the poor Egyptians not only had to suffer under the brutal rule of an iron-fisted pharaoh, but then you consider it to be fair and just to punish every single parent with a first born son for the atrocities committed by this brutal iron-fisted tyrant.

The funny thing is, Egyptians had more rights than most other nations at the time. Moses would've seen workers' rights (to the point there are actually recorded strikes) and civil rights for women and go, "Nuh-uh, if I make my OWN country, I'm skipping all that crap."

I mean, if Egypt was such a horrible place, why did the Hebrews not want to leave AND Jewish refugees went there all the time, including Jesus and his family?

QuestioningMind said:
Ah yes, the blame the victim argument. Clearly you are clueless as to how little power the common people have in a society where the people have been brainwashed to believe that their leader is a representative of God.

They will always justify things they'd never want for themselves.

QuestioningMind said:
et's say that Trump decides to order the slaughter of all of the children being held at the border.

Things like this happen because leaders say evil is okay

The Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram experiment prove "good" people are willing to do immoral things just because someone said it was okay.

Thirza Fallen said:
Supposedly they did not mention genitals, they used the term "thigh" or "hip."

Yeah, but the bible loves it some sexual metaphors. "Uncovering feet" was a euphemism for sex. One wonders what "John put his head in Jesus' lap" meant.

SkepticThinker · Jan 30, 2019

Jollybear said:
Oh wait a minute now. God has to forsake the wicked mothers children too because in this God teaches what happens when authority figures do evil, others under there care also pay by there evil actions.

So, if they want the good life for themselves and there children, then they must obey the owner of this universe. His house, his rules.

As for the firsborn of egypt dying, God was merely paying egypt back for egypt killing the isrealite male children prior. Karma sucks, doesnt it?

Wow, you support some really immoral stuff!

Subduction Zone · Jan 30, 2019

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
And the woman is just to assume that the guy who spent days away from home never got some human or otherwise action, I guess.

Are you implying that there was a double standards back then?

Muffled · Feb 2, 2019

Stanyon said:
Aleister Crowley wrote the Book of the Law (Liber Legis) supposedly under the guidance of Aiwass, another after him claimed Set guided his pen. It's a good gimmick to claim legitimacy of something or other because a higher power or intelligence told you so, some of the biggest religions have used it.

I believe God backs up His messengers with powerful acts.

Muffled · Feb 2, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Are you implying that there was a double standards back then?

Perhaps that would work back then but I believe now there are DNA tests that can prove a man fathered a child.

Subduction Zone · Feb 2, 2019

Muffled said:
Perhaps that would work back then but I believe now there are DNA tests that can prove a man fathered a child.

DNA did not have too much to do with the double standards. Women were property in the Old Testament.

Faithofchristian · Feb 4, 2019

Skwim said:
.

Came across the following decree in Numbers

Numbers 5:11-21

11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Tell the Israelites this: A man’s wife might be unfaithful to him. 13 She might have sexual relations with another man and hide this from her husband. And there might not be anyone to tell him that his wife committed this sin. Her husband might never know about the wrong thing she did, and she might not tell her husband about her sin. 14 But the husband might begin to think that his wife sinned against him, whether she has or not. He might become jealous. He might begin to believe that she is not pure and true to him. 15 If that happens, he must take his wife to the priest. The husband must also take an offering of 8 cups of barley flour. He must not pour oil or incense on the barley flour. This barley flour is a grain offering to the Lord that is given because the husband is jealous. This offering will show that he thinks his wife has been unfaithful to him.

16 “The priest will take the woman before the Lord and make her stand there. 17 Then he will take some special water and put it in a clay jar. He will put some dirt from the floor of the Holy Tent into the water. 18 He will force the woman to stand before the Lord. Then he will loosen her hair and put the grain offering in her hand. This is the barley flour that her husband gave because he was jealous. At the same time, he will hold the clay jar of special water. This is the special water that can bring trouble to the woman.

19 “Then the priest will make the woman promise to tell the truth and say to her: ‘If you have not slept with another man, and if you have not sinned against your husband while you were married to him, then this water that causes trouble will not hurt you. 20 But if you have sinned against your husband—if you had sexual relations with a man who is not your husband—then you are not pure. 21 If that is true, you will have much trouble when you drink this special water. You will not be able to have any children. And if you are pregnant now, your baby will die.

In other words, an act of adultery outweighs the worth of an unborn child.

Interesting god, this god of Abraham.

.

I believe what we have here is discrepancy
between what you have given. As there is no where made mention that the woman as being with child ( pregnant) in the book of Numbers 5:1--31
That even in the Jewish Torah book of Numbers 5:1-31, makes no mention of the woman as being with child ( Pregnant) either.

1--"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:

3 Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell.

4 And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the Lordspake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel.

5 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

6 Speak unto the children of Israel, When a man or woman shall commit any sin that men commit, to do a trespass against the Lord, and that person be guilty;

7 Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed.

8 But if the man have no kinsman to recompense the trespass unto, let the trespass be recompensed unto the Lord, even to the priest; beside the ram of the atonement, whereby an atonement shall be made for him.

9 And every offering of all the holy things of the children of Israel, which they bring unto the priest, shall be his.

10 And every man's hallowed things shall be his: whatsoever any man giveth the priest, it shall be his.

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,

13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;

14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:

15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:

17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:

18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:

19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:

20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:

21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;

22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:

24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.

25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the Lord, and offer it upon the altar:

26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.

27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;

30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity"

That even in the Jewish Torah book of Numbers 5:1-31, makes no mention of the woman as being with child ( Pregnant)

Subduction Zone · Feb 4, 2019

Faithofchristian said:
I believe what we have here is discrepancy
between what you have given. As there is no where made mention that the woman as being with child ( pregnant) in the book of Numbers 5:1--31
That even in the Jewish Torah book of Numbers 5:1-31, makes no mention of the woman as being with child ( Pregnant) either.

1--"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:

3 Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell.

4 And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the Lordspake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel.

5 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

6 Speak unto the children of Israel, When a man or woman shall commit any sin that men commit, to do a trespass against the Lord, and that person be guilty;

7 Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed.

8 But if the man have no kinsman to recompense the trespass unto, let the trespass be recompensed unto the Lord, even to the priest; beside the ram of the atonement, whereby an atonement shall be made for him.

9 And every offering of all the holy things of the children of Israel, which they bring unto the priest, shall be his.

10 And every man's hallowed things shall be his: whatsoever any man giveth the priest, it shall be his.

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,

13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;

14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:

15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:

17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:

18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:

19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:

20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:

21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;

22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:

24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.

25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the Lord, and offer it upon the altar:

26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.

27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;

30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity"

That even in the Jewish Torah book of Numbers 5:1-31, makes no mention of the woman as being with child ( Pregnant)

It is quite clear from context and the use of euphemisms of that time that she was pregnant. Even today it is clear for those that can read it without an unjustified belief.

Skwim · Feb 4, 2019

Faithofchristian said:
I believe what we have here is discrepancy
between what you have given. As there is no where made mention that the woman as being with child ( pregnant) in the book of Numbers 5:1--31
That even in the Jewish Torah book of Numbers 5:1-31, makes no mention of the woman as being with child ( Pregnant) either.

1--"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:

3 Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell.

4 And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the Lordspake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel.

5 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

6 Speak unto the children of Israel, When a man or woman shall commit any sin that men commit, to do a trespass against the Lord, and that person be guilty;

7 Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed.

8 But if the man have no kinsman to recompense the trespass unto, let the trespass be recompensed unto the Lord, even to the priest; beside the ram of the atonement, whereby an atonement shall be made for him.

9 And every offering of all the holy things of the children of Israel, which they bring unto the priest, shall be his.

10 And every man's hallowed things shall be his: whatsoever any man giveth the priest, it shall be his.

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,

13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;

14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:

15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:

17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:

18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:

19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:

20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:

21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;

22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:

24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.

25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the Lord, and offer it upon the altar:

26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.

27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;

30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity"

That even in the Jewish Torah book of Numbers 5:1-31, makes no mention of the woman as being with child ( Pregnant)

Like sooo many verses in the Bible, it depends on which Bible version one reads. Here are some other variations on Numbers 5:21.

NIV
here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

CEB
"then the priest must make the woman utter the curse and say to the woman, “May the Lord make you a curse and a harmful pledge among your people, when the Lord induces a miscarriage and your womb discharges."

NIVUK
here the priest is to put the woman under this curse – ‘may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

VOICE
[here the priest should make the woman say the cursing-oath], “then may the Eternal One make your name a shunning reproach, an insult or a warning among the people, because you will have a miscarriage and your belly will swell.

And in The Collegeville Bible Commentary, in reference to the issue in Numbers 5:21, on page 156 it says

" 'If the woman has sinned by illicit intercourse, her punishment is termination of the pregnancy (v.27) or the inability to bear children."
source

.

.

Faithofchristian · Feb 4, 2019

Skwim said:
Like sooo many verses in the Bible, it depends on which Bible version one reads. Here are some others.

NIV
here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

CEB
"then the priest must make the woman utter the curse and say to the woman, “May the Lord make you a curse and a harmful pledge among your people, when the Lord induces a miscarriage and your womb discharges."

NIVUK
here the priest is to put the woman under this curse – ‘may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

VOICE
[here the priest should make the woman say the cursing-oath], “then may the Eternal One make your name a shunning reproach, an insult or a warning among the people, because you will have a miscarriage and your belly will swell.

And in The Collegeville Bible Commentary, in reference to the issue in Numbers 5:21, on page 156 it says

" 'If the woman has sinned by illicit intercourse, her punishment is termination of the pregnancy (v.27) or the inability to bear children."
source

.

.

Those are not the bible, those are
man's teachings Incorporated
NIV
CEB
NIVUK

Maybe you should pay more attention to the KJV bible 1611
And the Tanaka & Torah

As you would be further ahead, than going by man's teachings.

Skwim · Feb 4, 2019

Faithofchristian said:
Those are not the bible, those are
man's teachings Incorporated
NIV
CEB
NIVUK

Maybe you should pay more attention to the KJV bible 1611
And the Tanaka & Torah

As you would be further ahead, than going by man's teachings.

"Those are not the Bible."

Oh, you Christians. You are an amusing breed.

.

Faithofchristian · Feb 4, 2019

Skwim said:
"Those are not the Bible."

Oh, you Christians. You are an amusing breed.

.

It's evidence that can not tell the difference between man's teachings and the teachings of Christ Jesus.

As I said the NIV, CEB, NIVUK, have man's teachings incorporated in them.
But seeing can't tell the difference between them.

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