I wish this conversation had not melted into a spitting contest between theists and non-theists. Can we please get this back on track?
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Biblical Christianity?
- Thread starter Windwalker
- Start date
deity and god have the same meaning!
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I don't believe in a deity/god.
How would god see a psychiatrist?
I don't see god so negative because I read the bible as a book not as a fact of an all-existing god. If anything, I'm more concerned over the people.
OK I'm sorry for that.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
All you have to do is read, understand the author's context, understand your context, and do something with it.
To the contrary, the early church understood Paul's writings to be the very words of God. (1 Corinthians 14:37) Therefore they help us understand the Old Testament.
I believe the Bible as a whole is a historical narrative. The word myth can be defined as a widely held but false idea. If the Bible is a myth as in a traditionally upheld story that has lasted over the times, okay, it does qualify as that. But I just don't think that the Bible can be invalidated because it's old.
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If I feel so inclined to identify as a religion, which I typically do not, sure. I'm quite well-versed in Christian theology and teachings. It provides a useful language for me to speak of the mystical nature of Reality, or God. It's my "native tongue," in other words. But as an organized religion, it's too exoteric, and lacks the escotic nature of the Divine except for isolated individuals called mystics, such as Meister Eckhart, for one example.
To find God, you have to move within. You have to let go of seeking God "out there". You have to embrace the immanent nature of the Divine. And Jesus does teach this, but most take those words and externalize them, as they have yet to open that door of the Heart.
I am quite well versed with John's prologue. The image of the Logos is quite profound, and quite meaningful to me on many levels. If you're interested in exploring my understanding of Logos, I'll direct you to this thread I'll link to, which after the first few posts by me in it beginning at post #6, I dig considerably more deeply into it in that wonderful conversation comparing Logos with the Hindu concept of Om. I think you'll see I have more than a casual understanding of this. Logos and Aum
No it is not. Everything is Christ's voice. "The heavens declare the Glory of God..." "The invisible things of him through creation are clearly seen and made known, even his eternal power and Godhead". The voice of Christ, is revealed by the Spirit, not by reading a book without that.
No they do not. In fact, reading the Bible with your mind trying to "figure it out", is exactly what will prevent you from hearing Christ's voice. And if they "need it", then how did they managed for the first 3 centuries before there was one, and how did those, the vast majority of them, who could not read, who were illiterate, read it?
Jesus spoke instead about things like "Consider the lilies of the field", he did not say "Go read your Bible to find God". He taught us to explore the Heart, to listen to the Spirit within. That's what he taught. Anyone can read the Bible, not everyone can hear it, including those who call themselves Christians.
And that is why I say it is a misguided view of God. Logos is "God Manifesting". Not "the Bible". Spend some time reading my insights about Logos in that other thread, and you'll see what I mean.
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Yes. But what does that really mean? How does that work? A lot of people hear the teachings of the Bible with their minds, but do they hear with the heart? Let me try to give some personal examples here. I practice meditation. In setting aside all that thinking mind, and just listening with your being without thoughts and ideas and categories and definitions, etc, the Heart begins to have it's voice come up from within us.
And the more you do this, the more you are not allowing yourself to be distracted away from it by trying to engage the thinking mind in trying to understand Truth using its highly limited and skewed faculties, you will in fact be confronted with that sense of conviction of Truth by itself, without anyone telling you. Someone can tell you all day long, but unless it arises from within your own self, you won't hear anything at all. You'll just continue to mask and delude yourself from the Truth.
There are countless times for me as I go into these deeper "chambers" of the soul, to use a metaphor, that you will find an enormous release of emotions and feelings, that have been denied and suppressed by our psyches. Rivers of tears flow forth, and it is simply comes by allowing Truth to arise of its own from within us, connecting us, reunited us with the Divine. The words spoken may provide "seeds" for the subconscious to process and draw from, which germinate. But they are not necessary. I found God without having anyone present the "Gospel", as some teachings from the Bible.
Truth does not need an unenlightened person reading from a book with their unenlightened mind tell you what to believe in to find God. That does not work. And if it did play a role, the entire thing was you to begin with, and it could have been anything that helped facilitate that opening, such as someone simply saying they love you. No Bible necessary.
I understand what you're saying but firstly, I've heard Christians tell me that meditation is bad or evil.
Secondly, many people who are Christians wouldn't be Christians or know about God if it wasn't for missionary work or preaching, so what do you think of that?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Have you looked into christianity beyond the theology? The actual divinity and meaning of christ, community, and christ's teachings about his father???
Theology is cool, but....
Yes. The bible doesn't replace this just confirms it via what the apostles told of christ's life. If you look beyond the ink and stuff and what christians say, you'd get how the bible is sooo important to one set of people but not for others. Be more open to people's perspective. You don't have to agree with them though.
Versed in scripture doesn't mean christ is in you. You're talking from the wrong (in my opinion) source.
You guys can disagree all you want. That's why there are wars. I don't know how it helps your spiritual growth, though.
Everything including the bible is christ's voice.
Just many christians, not all, find the bible interprets what they feel god tells them about life. It helps with interpretation so they won't mistake everything coming from god (demons etc)
Who says they only read the bible with their minds, though?
Generalization?
Not all people do that. The bible isn't god. Who says the bible is god???
You're generalizing. If everything is god's voice, why belittle people who want to use scripture as part of learning who god is?
"All you have to do," huh?
So simply? Just that? No nuances in people's understandings of what exactly that might have been? Just black and white, clean cut Answers with a Capital A await the reasoning mind?They considered him a spiritual authority and teacher, yes. But I personally don't read that verse and conclude with your words, "to be the very words of God". I hear someone saying that if another is truly a prophet, or one that hears the voice of God, not in literal words but understanding with the heart and soul the truth of God, that person should hear his words as well, as they come from the same Source. To say "The very words of God", to me, is a highly misguided understanding of what Divine inspiration really is. It's not a secretary taking dictation from the boss.
It's like any origin myths, it's historical fiction. It's a mixture of real events, with the spin of the authors mind in creating that history for you to read. It's as much a matter of "facts" as it is "fiction", and more heavily to the latter, as historic events are simply the framework in order to hang the ornaments of myth upon them. This myth-making process then becomes our ideas of historical reality - until we examine them in the context of human creative genius. The Jews were fantastic story tellers.
It can be, but I have just finished explictly saying that is not how I use it. It is mythology, but it's also "true". If you understand what mythology actually is, that seemingly contradictory statement I just made makes perfect sense.
Here's a quick primer to the area of mythology to help illuminate you beyond how the common colloquial as "false" or "a lie". I never mean it in that sense. So if you are thinking I am, you are mistaken and need to come back to this. Mythology
Mythology (from the Greek mythos for story-of-the-people, and logos for word or speech, so the spoken story of a people) is the study and interpretation of often sacred tales or fables of a culture known as myths or the collection of such stories which deal with various aspects of the human condition: good and evil; the meaning of suffering; human origins; the origin of place-names, animals, cultural values, and traditions; the meaning of life and death; the afterlife; and the gods or a god. Myths express the beliefs and values about these subjects held by a certain culture.
Can you now see how these are stories to tell truths? The fiction is simply the vehicle for truth. I hope as you look into this, things may start to come into focus better for you.
I have never once invalidated it by recognizing it as mythology. I never would. It has value as human truths, using mythology blended with historical events as a vehicle of truths. But I do not see these as "infallible". That word is utterly outside the truth that myth teaches.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
In this case yes."All you have to do," huh?
No it's divine-human authorship. God in his sovereignty predestined the writers to have the personalities and the writing styles they did.
If it's all just a bunch of stories then you're arguing about something pretty absurd. I mean, what do you actually believe?
So the Bible is true, just not literal? What would you say the goal of the Bible is? You do admit that the Bible contains truth, but if it is in error in any way how much of its "truth" is actually trustworthy?
I have to say that those who say that are very misguided. It is purely fear-based nonsense. I had been taught that too, and I can tell you the source of that is ignorance on their part. Meditation is the tool of all the great Christian mystics, as well as the mystics of all religions.
I could fill several pages with my thoughts about that today, knowing what I know, and experiencing what I do. It opens the door to your hidden self, and that can be quite frightening and terrifying to those when they start to touch into that and it rears its ugly faces to them. It's their own inner darkness, and rather that facing it and surrendering it to God, they hide from it, call it evil and bad and scary. The whole "demon" in that affair is themselves running from themselves, fleeing to "Jesus" to save them from facing their own personal Judgement Day, where all is laid bare before them as in death.
That's why they are afraid. That's why most humans are afraid. Meditation isn't just about relaxation. It's the eye of the spirit to see into Truth itself, beyond beliefs. It's prayer, fully opened with all laid naked and bare in the Light of God. That's what meditation is. It's the eye of Spirit to the human mind, speaking Truth without words.
To answer this will take some consideration on my part, as what is say is not untrue. To try to unfold this is complex however, as you have to look at things such as who are these groups, what is their motives, how spiritual really are they, is their goal to help through Christian Love, or to try to convert them away from their religion to Christianity because they believe it's wrong for them, etc? All those questions and more have to be taken into account.
But yes, in principle, someone sharing their beliefs and how they approach the Divine, can in fact be helpful to others. But it has to be in the spirit of Love, not some idea you have to "save them". Trying to "save" others is simply put, trying to escape facing the Truth yourself, as I spoke about moments ago about meditation. But these truths, are not Truth with a capital A. They are like rungs on a ladder to help you climb, but there are many different ladders from other manufacturers too that do the same thing. But once you've climbed it, the ladder is unessential to you now.
Religion is a ladder, for some. And for others, an obstacle to God.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
Did I say that last quote by me in this conversation? I'd just like to know where you pulled that from.
A REAL CHRISTIAN
Member
Without it people would believe whatever version of jesus they choose. 1 corinthians 14:33 god is not a god of confusion. it only makes sense to have a standard.
So it's like an internal therapy session? People have had relayed experiences where they claim they were possessed by demons so that's why some of them say it's demonic.
OK thanks.
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Your response skirts the issue I raised. It's fine to have a standard, but is it fine to make that standard an idol?
It's not possible. Do you think that 1000 people reading an author's word will have 100% the same understanding of what their intent and motives were in the words they spoke? That is not possible, because everyone reads into it a projection of their own selves, based upon their own histories and personalities, assumptions, etc. All of these together colorize their understanding of another person's intents and motives, and they will hear what fits into that entire sphere of thought.
What you will have is some clusters of "general" agreement if those individuals inhabit a shared cultural space where the values and opinions are mirrored between each other. And then within that group, you will in fact have a fairly large amount of variations of opinion, simply due the fact people are different people seeing through different eyes, as I explained above.
But then, if you move outside that group, the opinions will look quite a lot different. You may use me in this conversation as an example of that. I guarantee you that the lens I am looking through at all this stuff falls outside your modes of perception such as you have them now, being conditioned by your group of peers with those modes of thought and frameworks of reality. The eye that I use to look at this includes large arenas of understanding, as well as personal spiritual experience.
People perceive reality differently, and no matter what you do, you cannot say for sure what you think an author's motives and intent were. Whatever you opinion, it includes you and your eyes. It can only at best be said that is what you believe he was thinking, not claim it as a fact. Right? Isn't that reasonable?
Well, that is completely a speculation on your part, and I personally don't know any place in scripture which explicitly states that. (note my word choice). BTW, predestination if a theology that not all Christians believe in, such as Calvinism which says God predestined some to salvation and others to damnation. That is an interpretation of the Bible. It's not "what the Bible says". It's what the reader of it says.
I would never phrase it, "just a bunch of stories". That diminishes their value and truths calling it basically "junk". That is of course how you would see it from your perspective of believing it is flawless and perfect, a direct dictation from God to man, which they spin in their words.
You see, that mythology right there which I just pointed to in what you likely assume, is what places what my understanding of scripture is, well outside what you can comprehend. That is because you don't have the framework I am using to understand these things with. You are projecting a fiction from your mind on to me, and it does not reflect how I perceive and hold it.
You ask me what do I actually believe. That is a good question, and thank you for asking. I think the best way for me to attempt to explain it, is as I am doing here through these posts responding to you. It's not something I can simply state in such a way as it could be understood. You'd really need to ask from your perspective or questions and see if I can't answer that area of question.
What I believe is the entire Bible is metaphor. It's not telling you "facts", it's pointing to the Divine Reality through symbols and myths. There are deep timeless human truths in there, expressed through mythology the way an artist expresses divine inspiration through his canvas and paints. A picture emerges from the fiction of the art, that is a truth beyond the work, or in this case the scriptures. It's timeless, and can be fashioned to any culture, using any symbols, in any age, to say what it needs to say at that time for that culture.
To set the meanings in stone, is to kill the inspiration of Spirit. God breathes life, he doesn't stamp it out of a printing press. That is what I very much believe.
I would say it is in no small part the goal of those who compiled the different writings to say what they wanted it to say (this is a fact BTW), selecting texts which fit a theme they wanted to teach people from how they believed things. But honestly, aside from that I don't think the Bible has a goal, because it is not a person. It is a book. Readers have goals. Not books. I don't know what more to say to that actually.
The parts that speak truth to the spirit. The rest is just the context of ancient men who did not understand the natural world as we do today. It can make errors, and not diminish the truth that "love is the fulfillment of the law". It doesn't have to be perfect, to speak truth. Do you expect perfection from your loved one when she or he speaks truth to you, in order for you to trust them?
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RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
Seminary education and bible commentaries and study bibles and websites like Blue Letter Bible don't exist.
Well if it isn't what the Bible teaches it's pretty close to what the author originally thought based on the what Greek and Hebrew scholars think.
It's like any other work of philosophy...
But it claims to be more than that.
In effect, God doesn't communicate.
If by imperfect you mean untrue then yeah, I do. That's the issue, if the Bible teaches something false it is in error. Inerrancy is not "perfection" which is an arbitrary term, it's the validity of the statement. People are fallible, meaning they can err in their thoughts and communications. Hopefully their words are inerrant most of the time.
The Bible is both infallible (no possibility it can err) and inerrant (it does err) because its message was communicated across a large span of time and that message is unchanging (it was written that way for a reason). To say that the Bible can be interpreted any kind of freaky way you can think is to say in essence that God might as well have not communicated. But we know that the Bible says that God doesn't author confusion. Does he? That's in there. Your choice what you do with this information.
Looked into beyond the theology, you are asking me, but then you point to theological questions. This makes no sense. Look beyond into what, are you asking? You just asked me theological questions.
I'm quite open to people's perspectives. The more the better. I don't think you seem to be however, with incredulous responses with triple question marks, and the like. You seem to be assuming a whole lot about me, when it is clear you don't have any real understanding of what my actual knowledge, awareness, or background is. Are you sure you are open to other's perspectives?
This is what I say about "Biblical Christianity", such as it is. Why is it about the Bible?
BTW, what source do you really know that I am talking from?
You guys? What, you guys? Where? Who? I don't see anyone else next to me? Who are you hallucinating? How many do you see?
Because people hold different perspectives, that results in war? Not sure I'd want to be your friend, with expectations the people all believe and think alike, or there will be a violent response in a declarations of war.
I don't know how it can't. Don't you ever simply sit under the night sky and feel your soul connect with God? Tell me you've had that experience, right? Did you need to open the Bible for it to happen? Could it happen never even having hear of a Bible in the first place? Do you have spiritual experiences? Have you ever?
So you agree everything is Christ's voice, right? Everything, including the Bible? How about everything including the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Diamond Sutras, the Tao De Ching, etc? Does everything include those? No? Then it isn't everything then, right? Only just the books you read?
I'm not sure what to say to this. The Bible doesn't help you interpret anything. The Bible is a book you read and interpret using your mind, through the programming of your culture, peers, language, personality, worldviews, etc. The Bible doesn't talk. It just sits there on the table quietly saying nothing, until you use your mind and read the words through filters of your set of eyes you're reading with.
Why do I get the very distinct impression that some Christians, yourself apparently, who think of the Bible as if it were some living, organic entity of its own, like it has a flesh cover or something? Do you think the Bible is an animate life force of some sort, that sends off magic energies? I certainly am familiar with the term Bibliolatry, which is the worship of the Bible as if it were God. That's a problem, in my fair estimation.
Reading and comprehension are done with the mind. If you mean hearing with the heart, that's fine. I have no problem with that. That's what I do.
It seems many treat it as though it were, consider it has some goal in mind for you when you read it, claiming it helps you interpret it as if it were a friend standing over your shoulder, and the like. It may not be "god", but it sure sound's like it's viewed as some sort of living creature with a will, mind, and intention.
Who is belittling that? I'm not. They are free to do so, but as I said from the outset, it is not necessary to read the Bible in order to know God. "Biblical Christianity" as a term, is frankly nothing more than a political slogan with no basis in historical reality. If the Bible was the only criteria, than would you call the Roman Catholic Church "Biblical Christianity"? No? Please explain why not then?