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Biblical Christianity?

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Is there really any such thing, or is this a mythology? I believe it is a created myth in order to bolster an image of authority to a particular set of beliefs and values, typically conservative/fundamentalist in nature. It is a moniker created as a political slogan in order to create a sense of validity and authority to their specific views."It's not my words, but God's!", which is of course a false position for any human to say. Everything read from the Bible, is subjective to personal or group interpretations. Recognizing that fact, begins to open oneself to self-awareness and our particular biases which divide rather than unite.

In reality, there never was such as thing as "Biblical Christianity", especially in the early church. There was no Bible for the early Christians. There was no "official collection" of books that they all agreed upon, and held up as a source of authority for the first couple hundred years. Yet, they were Christians, who did not have a "Bible", let alone "follow" it.

What were they really following then, if it wasn't the Bible? What is Christianity about then, if it's not about "following the Bible"? What is it supposed to be following then, if they Bible is handled in such ways that people hide their prejudices behind what they are reading? Is Christianity founded in the Bible, or something else? What is the reality of Christianity, since "Biblical Christianity" is a created myth?
It's clearly a later invention that offers a partial explanation as to why the authors are unknown and anonymous.

Why Christians would even connect the Bible to their ancient counterparts who had no such thing in their possession at the start , sends a strong signal that the Bible itself is all guesswork and hyperbole redacted and edited to fit in with later groups. Especially during the time of Constantine and the middle ages where they just wrote whatever they wanted to make a workable religion out of it all.

When you think about it, early Christians were pretty insignificant and barely even mentioned in archaeological finds. It's pretty clear they were looked upon as a nuisance and not very well liked making their popularity pretty much nonexistent until Constantine forced Christianity upon people and later by the Catholic Church who refined the 'flavor' of the religion to what it is today.

Helluva way to become 'popular'.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Christianity seems to be anything a doctrine, dogma, sect or cult wishes it to be.
The funny part is when I became a Christian I never questioned the validity and relationship of the Bible as it applies to Christianity. I just took the Bible at face value what people told me and I believed it during my time as a Christian.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It's clearly a later invention that offers a partial explanation as to why the authors are unknown and anonymous.

Why Christians would even connect the Bible to their ancient counterparts who had no such thing in their possession at the start , sends a strong signal that the Bible itself is all guesswork and hyperbole redacted and edited to fit in with later groups. Especially during the time of Constantine and the middle ages where they just wrote whatever they wanted to make a workable religion out of it all.

When you think about it, early Christians were pretty insignificant and barely even mentioned in archaeological finds. It's pretty clear they were looked upon as a nuisance and not very well liked making their popularity pretty much nonexistent until Constantine forced Christianity upon people and later by the Catholic Church who refined the 'flavor' of the religion to what it is today.

Helluva way to become 'popular'.

I doubt one in a thousand ever took to Christianity
by choice.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Is there really any such thing, or is this a mythology? I believe it is a created myth in order to bolster an image of authority to a particular set of beliefs and values, typically conservative/fundamentalist in nature. It is a moniker created as a political slogan in order to create a sense of validity and authority to their specific views."It's not my words, but God's!", which is of course a false position for any human to say. Everything read from the Bible, is subjective to personal or group interpretations. Recognizing that fact, begins to open oneself to self-awareness and our particular biases which divide rather than unite.

In reality, there never was such as thing as "Biblical Christianity", especially in the early church. There was no Bible for the early Christians. There was no "official collection" of books that they all agreed upon, and held up as a source of authority for the first couple hundred years. Yet, they were Christians, who did not have a "Bible", let alone "follow" it.

What were they really following then, if it wasn't the Bible? What is Christianity about then, if it's not about "following the Bible"? What is it supposed to be following then, if they Bible is handled in such ways that people hide their prejudices behind what they are reading? Is Christianity founded in the Bible, or something else? What is the reality of Christianity, since "Biblical Christianity" is a created myth?
While there were several other books, historical work has shown that the gospel books are the earliest and also the most widely used. So even as early as 90 CE, the biblical gospels were the dominant stream among the Christian community.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
While there were several other books, historical work has shown that the gospel books are the earliest and also the most widely used. So even as early as 90 CE, the biblical gospels were the dominant stream among the Christian community.

Correct, the attestation of the four gospels and Pauline epistles as the authoritative texts of orthodoxy - even by such aberrant groups as the Gnostic sects, who were obsessed with Paul - was very early, certainly by late first century.

Other books of the New Testament were less certain, though. Revelation was particularly difficult in gaining widespread acceptance (for good reason, as later history has proven).
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes. I certainly can. Jesus did, quite vehemently, as in the following, :)

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

“Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!​

Any questions? :)


The Bible does not claim to be the Word of God. The NT was not even in existence when Christianity was formed, for at least the first couple hundred years. If there is any verse in the NT that points to "scripture", it is not referring to the books of the NT. The "Word of God", in the NT, is actually not ink and paper, but Spirit, the Logos of John 1. Modern Christians have replaced the Logos with a book, as if that can actually reveal Truth itself alone.

When fundamentalist say the word of god they mean jesus christ rather than ink and paper. Here is the Word of God Bible Verses about the Word of God & the Importance of Scripture

One christian here mentioned it is the voice of god (christ). If you don't have the physical bible, you can't hear christ's message of his father.

Kind of like if you want to know about math, you in this example, you need a math book. While one can do math without a math book, if a person doesn't feel he is good at math, he would depend on the book and not his knowledge.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Correct, the attestation of the four gospels and Pauline epistles as the authoritative texts of orthodoxy - even by such aberrant groups as the Gnostic sects, who were obsessed with Paul - was very early, certainly by late first century.

Other books of the New Testament were less certain, though. Revelation was particularly difficult in gaining widespread acceptance (for good reason, as later history has proven).
While several writings in NT are late (like pseudo Pauline's, revelation etc.) all the writings that are early are contained there.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well given that Jesus adhered to it to faithfully then why shouldn't Christians do the same given that He's the founder of their faith?
What Jesus adhered to was the law of Love. He repeatedly chastised the religious who were were legalistic, being more concerned about the letters of the law, rather than the spirit of it. That pretty much defines Jesus' message right there. It's ironic how Christians then make it about "what the Bible says", instead of a more reasonable approach and ask, "how might Jesus think about that", thus forcing them to look at themselves and emulate an ideal of a loving human being, which is the core of Jesus' teaching, rather than making themselves the judge of others by focusing instead on the external words, rather than the internal heart.

Ok I didn't know that... thanks for enlightening me.
I'm full of ton's of good info like that. :) If you're interested in looking at the more modern scholarly understanding of the writings of early Christian texts, this is a wonderful resource and a great wealth of information about the origins of these texts people will cite to you all the time. It really provides a larger context of understanding beyond the simplistic conservative view that "God wrote it". I love this stuff. Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
And to go along with your excellent post, let me just add that NT theology also reflects Greek influence, especially since northern Israel and the coastal areas were pretty heavily Hellenized, and it especially comes out strongly in Paul's letters.
In which ways does the NT heavily reflect Hellenistic influence?
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Its hocus pocus!

I always hated growing up in a bible christian house.

They speaketh as if the whole thing is obvious and true. And how dare you oppose it?

Its obscure falsehood. Psychobabble! With a scant few poetic sayings that are sorta nice, and sorta meaningful.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Same chance that angels really told J. Smith
where the good books were.
Lol it's how you said that the others were made up but not Christianity that led me to that conclusion. I guess you were being sarcastic, it's kinda difficult to tell sometimes through text alone.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Everyone I think senses it is important though to keep some things which come with Christianity such as forgiveness and agape.
I would argue that Christianity is those things. It's not that you keep them from it. They are it.

There are two hidden objections to answer: 1. If there is no biblical christianity then what is that foundation which will keep us from becoming a cold desert of politics and strife?
"Biblical Christianity", is not Christianity. It's about defining themselves as other to others. It's a division of "rightness" in opposition to "wrongness". Christianity is universal Love. It doesn't divide or exclude. Truth is a matter of perception. Love embraces all perceptions equally. That's what Christianity is.

That's what the Foundation is.

2. How can I get my kids to gain wisdom beyond their years, be loving healthy with a shot at happiness?
By being wise yourself. :)
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
While several writings in NT are late (like pseudo Pauline's, revelation etc.) all the writings that are early are contained there.

Again, spot on.

It bears noting, however, that these earliest of Christian texts - the synoptic gospels and the Pauline epistles - testify to a number of competing theologies in the early church, typified by Paul's disputes with his opponents - namely, the 'Judaizers' (Galatians 2:14) or circumcision faction, who still believed in the necessity of Gentile converts complying with the Mosaic covenant, and the apposite 'Libertines' (1 Corinthians 5-6) who believed that so-called 'Christian freedom' from the constraints of the Jewish law now meant that, "Anything is permissible" (6:12-20), which compelled Paul to tell them, "For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love” (Galatians 5:13).

The Libertine strain in the early churches had led some to advocate 'free-love' sex: "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans" (1 Corinthians 5).

St. Paul had, himself, accidentally encouraged this apparently widespread sect:


Time, Freedom, and The Common Good


The second, and certainly most influential version of individual inner freedom emerged from the tradition of biblical thought by way of the new Christian dispensation.

Enunciated by St. Paul, a contemporary of Seneca who enjoyed a Hellenic education as a Roman citizen, the notion of personal freedom was finally sanctified. Eschewing the bondage of ritualistic obedience, St. Paul...assuring his adherents that "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom," admonished them to remember that "for freedom, Christ has set us free"...Freedom seems to have been proclaimed as an obligation to think for oneself, commit oneself to the conclusion of one's thought


Some early Christians took this to another level.

Neither of these fledgling sects became accepted as part of orthodoxy, although the Judaizers eventually developed into the Ebionites and Nazoreans (who persisted until the 4th century) while the 'Libertines' would evolve into the Antinomian strain on the margins of Christian thought that has re-surfaced from time-to-time (such as in the 'Brethren of the Free Spirit' in the 13th-15th centuries and the Ranters of 17th century Puritan England) and eventually helped spawn secular left-libertarianism and anarchism.

Orthodox Paulinism was a kind of 'via media' between these two extremes.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
In which ways does the NT heavily reflect Hellenistic influence?
Because it puts a heavier emphasis on reason than normative Judaism back then, plus it is more universal versus parochial. It also puts more emphasis on inclusion and openness. And Paul's heavy use of dichotomy reflects his Greek education, and the Church was very much influenced by Paul's teachings.

Catholic theologians have long recognized that influence, especially that of Aristotle.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Well given that Jesus adhered to it to faithfully then why shouldn't Christians do the same given that He's the founder of their faith?
Jesus was a Jew talking to other Jews about maintaining their adherence to Judaism. He was not talking to "us".
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
There are two complementary discussions in this thread. One is about the history of various parts of the Bible and the influence of the culture in which it was developed. The other discussion is about what constitutes Christianity.

The former is informative to me. The second focus aligns with my own. If one accepts only a tiny part, a few paragraphs, constituting the primacy of Love, the Sermon on the Mount and a few other passages as being the heart and soul of Christianity, then the rest fades into a much less important realm.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
When you think about it, early Christians were pretty insignificant and barely even mentioned in archaeological finds. It's pretty clear they were looked upon as a nuisance and not very well liked making their popularity pretty much nonexistent until Constantine forced Christianity upon people and later by the Catholic Church who refined the 'flavor' of the religion to what it is today.

Helluva way to become 'popular'.

Respectfully, your historiography - or as it seems, major lack thereof - is dreadfully misinformed. Here are the two respects in which you err, rather significantly.

1. Constantine did not 'force' Christianity upon the Empire. He was actually very tolerant of Paganism (even continuing to act as Pontifex Maximus for the traditional Roman state cult and using Sol Invictus, the Sun God, as the emblem of his regime). He only got himself baptised into the church on his deathbed, because he so badly wanted to retain the trust of both polytheists and Christians in his multi-religious state, despite his clear preference for Christian doctrine and personal belief in it.

Religious tolerance was Constantine's official imperial policy:


"...Each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion...It is one thing acting with free will to enter into contest for immortality, another to compel others to do so by force through the fear of punishment. No one should greatly trouble another, rather, everyone should follow what his soul prefers..."

- Constantine the Great (c.272 - 337) (Elizabeth DePalma Digeser, in The making of a Christian Empire: Lactantius & Rome)​


Some scholarship on this:


"...In principle he (Constantine) treated religion as a matter of choice and conscience, an arena free of state meddling...Liberis mentibus — "With Free minds" — all are to worship their Gods. It is a remarkable policy, an unexpected one, since it would have been natural for a ruler after his conversion to Christianity to shift all the previous relations. … Most of the apologists who defended the Church in the early centuries advocated freedom of religion...the latin rhetor Lactantius developed a theological arguement for religious freedom. Lactantius was close enough to Constantine later to serve as tutor to the emperor's sons, and his influence is evident in many ways in Constantine's own writings. …He (Lactantius) asked those who believed in compulsion of religion: "What good can you do, then, if you defile the body but cannot break the will?" It is a surprisingly modern statement, arguing, that religious freedom is the "first freedom", rooted in the very nature of religious life as an exercise of free will...Under Constantine's policy of concord, the Church was flooded with new converts, not through coercion but by force of Imperial example...Eventually, Christian Emperors abandoned Constantinian religious policy... Constantine favoured the Church but gave serious attention to protecting the rights of non-Christians. One cannot help but muse how European history would have been different if Christians had had the patience to let Constantine's original settlement alone..."
  • Peter J. Leithart, in Defending Constantine : The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christendom (2010)

He likely converted because it was already becoming a significant movement in the Empire, and calculated that he needed to grasp some of its populist appeal amongst the masses to establish his grip on power in the aftermath of the decades long civil war that had ruptured the Roman world since the crisis of the third century, as well as thinking that monotheism would help unify the empire.

2. The rise of Christianity was a hotly disputed phenomenon in the Roman Empire. It was classified as a depraved superstition — the Latin term superstitio, and therefore received much scrutiny and was the subject of intense paranoia. By the end of the first century, Christianity had already spread to Rome and major cities in Armenia, Greece and Syria and already becoming the dominant religion in many urban centres by the late 3rd century. Undoubtedly, Constantine's conversion helped it grow exponentially - more from patronage and desire to imitate the emperor, than enforcement - but it was hardly negligible before the Edict of Milan in 312.

As one of the foremost scholars on Early Christianity, Professor Larry Hurtado, explains:


"Christianity did not become successful through Constantine giving it imperial approval. Instead, Constantine adopted Christianity likely because it had already become so successful despite earlier efforts to destroy the movement...

Christianity was certainly not part of the establishment…[and] was considered…a dangerous development that challenged what were then accepted notions of religion, piety, identity, and behaviour...

In the eyes of many of that time, early Christianity was odd, bizarre, in some ways even dangerous. For one thing, it did not fit what “religion” was for people then. Indicative of this, Roman-era critics designated it as a perverse “superstition.” Yet the very features of early Christianity that made it odd and objectionable in the ancient Roman setting have become now unquestioned assumptions about religion in much of the modern world
.”

― Larry W. Hurtado, Destroyer of the gods: Early Christian Distinctiveness in the Roman World

And another, Bart Ehrman in his 2018 book, The Triumph of Christianity: How a Forbidden Religion Swept the World:


Constantine’s conversion was not the single decisive turning point in the spread and success of the Christian religion, the one moment that changed all history and made the Christian conquest a success. At the rate it was growing at the time, Christianity may well have succeeded otherwise. If Constantine had not converted, possibly a later emperor would have done so—say, one of his sons.


We have so many references to it in extant pagan literature of the time, including Pliny the Younger's Letter to the Emperor Trajan about how to handle arrested female Christian deacons in 112 A.D,.Tacitus's Annals, 15.44 in 113 A.D. which describe the Neronian persecution of Christianity, the Meditations (161 to 180 A.D) of Emperor Marcus Aurelius which refer to Christians and the peculiar aspects of Christian doctrine multiple times (I.6, III.6, VII.68, VIII.48.51, and XI.3.), the Roman physician Galen (129 AD – c. 216) in De pulsuum differentiis, ii & iii and the satirist Lucian of Samosata (c. 125 AD – 180 AD) who wrote about Christian beliefs extensively in his Death of Peregrine, even noting what was by then common knowledge among the Roman public, "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day,–the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account", he goes on to say:


The Death of Peregrine | De Morte Peregrini | The Lucian of Samosata Project


In some of the Asiatic cities, too, the Christian communities put themselves to the expense of sending deputations, with offers of sympathy, assistance, and legal advice. The activity of these people, in dealing with any matter that affects their community, is something extraordinary; they spare no trouble, no expense...

These misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.

All this they take quite on trust, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property. Now an adroit, unscrupulous fellow, who has seen the world, has only to get among these simple souls, and his fortune is pretty soon made; he plays with them.

Christian beliefs were variously scorned, ridiculed, feared and subject to intense scrutiny. Everyone had a 'position' on what Lucian referred to as, "their queer creed".
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
In terms of the growth rate of early Christianity, the scholar Bart Ehrman - using the method of Rodney Stark and James Bell but with significant corrections - has estimated how it would have proceeded, as follows (I'm quoting verbatim from his book).


30 CE—20 Christians

60 CE—1,280 Christians; say 1,000 to 1,500

100 CE—8,389 Christians; say 7,000 to 10,000

150 CE—36,000 Christians; say 30,000 to 40,000

200 CE—157,000 Christians; say 140,000 to 170,000

250 CE—676,000 Christians; say 600,000 to 700,000

300 CE—2,923,000 Christians; say 2,500,000 to 3,500,000

312 CE—3,857,000 Christians; say 3,500,000 to 4,000,000

400 CE—29,478,000 Christians; say 25,000,000 to 35,000,000
 
In terms of the growth rate of early Christianity, the scholar Bart Ehrman - using the method of Rodney Stark and James Bell but with significant corrections - has estimated how it would have proceeded, as follows (I'm quoting verbatim from his book).


30 CE—20 Christians

60 CE—1,280 Christians; say 1,000 to 1,500

100 CE—8,389 Christians; say 7,000 to 10,000

150 CE—36,000 Christians; say 30,000 to 40,000

200 CE—157,000 Christians; say 140,000 to 170,000

250 CE—676,000 Christians; say 600,000 to 700,000

300 CE—2,923,000 Christians; say 2,500,000 to 3,500,000

312 CE—3,857,000 Christians; say 3,500,000 to 4,000,000

400 CE—29,478,000 Christians; say 25,000,000 to 35,000,000


If you look at how the Mormon church has grown you will see it followed a similar statistical trend since its conception. Same applies to Islam or any other major religion....It usually takes about a century for a religion to take hold in the public consciousness, then if proselytization attempts are successful, it starts a rapid exponential rise in certain geographic regions. Actually, Mormonism grew much more quickly than Christianity.

900px-LDSChurchMembership2015.png
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Everything read from the Bible, is subjective to personal or group interpretations.
Mmmm, some would say that the author's intent determines the meaning of the verse or passage.
In reality, there never was such as thing as "Biblical Christianity", especially in the early church.
The Old Testament was the only Scripture they had. So what you said is a half-truth.
What were they really following then, if it wasn't the Bible? What is Christianity about then, if it's not about "following the Bible"? What is it supposed to be following then, if they Bible is handled in such ways that people hide their prejudices behind what they are reading? Is Christianity founded in the Bible, or something else? What is the reality of Christianity, since "Biblical Christianity" is a created myth?
I guess Judaism with its ancient traditions and stories is all a myth too. But you wouldn't think so by the fact that Jews exist.
 
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