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Something that's always bothered me about the bible

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Justice is the giving of something to make up for a crime. I burn your house down its only right you sue me for the sum to make it right. In Gods scheme of things BLOOD is the only thing worth anything not gold not land, BLOOD (Lev 17 something). Blood of animals is not good enough ( notice in the OT jews are constantly sacrificing animals) blood of men is no good because they sin and are therefore "tainted".

So how does Jesus' blood pay for what Adam did? If sacrificing animals allowed the Jews forgiveness of their sins for centuries without Christ's blood, how did Jesus' dying make a difference? Can you explain?

So poor people poor us what do we have to make up for our transgressions? NOTHING! What is needed is a man with freewill who has NEVER sinned to sacrifice his blood for us. There was none so God himself came down as Jesus A real man who could have sinned but didnt and shed his blood for us.

I see a problem here. Jesus' sacrifice was to cover our sins...right? He had to die to cancel the debt. But if Jesus was God, then God is immortal.....which means he cannot die. How did humans kill God? If humans truly killed God, then who resurrected him? If Jesus didn't really die then the debt is not paid.

But that was 2000 years ago how do we now TOUCH jesus blood? This is why baptism is when you are saved ( Acts 2: 38)

This says that at baptism, your sins are forgiven, so does that automatically mean that you are saved? What about Matthew 24:13?

because also in gods scheme of things being baptised UNDER WATER is the same thing as dying with christ. Read romans chap 6. And Hebrews chap 8- 11( its tricky though)

Yes, I agree that full immersion baptism is required because of the symbolism. Dying to one's former life and being raised to serve God's will first in your life. So isn't baptism just the beginning? If we need to "endure to the end" in order to be "saved", then more is required, isn't it?

What do you believe that we are being saved from?
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Best guess: That statement is connected with belief in hellfire, generally based on a literal concept of the afterlife in place of the concept of spiritual revival. It is devoid of morality and unrelated to the concept of God.

Better yet, what is death for?

Go to the part of the Book of Job, where he complains to God. When we question God, we are trying to BE God. We were created for his purposes and he alone knows them.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why did God plant that tree in Eden? Knowing his orders not to eat of it would be disobeyed.

Do you think he knew in advance that they would disobey? What if he chose not to? What if he wanted that to be their choice?

He gave humans free will, so the command not to eat just that one fruit, when he had generously given them access to every other fruit tree in the garden, was a small test of their respect for his sovereignty, and what he claimed as his own 'property'.

That one tree and what it represented, (the right to decide what was good and what was evil) belonged exclusively to God, so taking of its fruit was stealing from their Creator and disrespecting his sovereign right to set reasonable limits.

When God is forgiveness, why didn't he forgive Adam and Eve for being manipulated by the Satan God allowed to slither up the tree knowing full well what its fruit contained?

Actually, there was nothing wrong with the fruit in and of itself.....it was what the fruit represented that caused the problem. Adam and his wife were not encumbered by sin. Theirs was a deliberate act of disobedience, in full knowledge of the stated consequences. There was no excuse for what they did, and no basis to forgive them. The devil too knew that disobedience carried the death penalty, but all he cared about was himself.

Maybe the whole point from Genesis to Revelation in matters of faith is this. The first step into faith is accepting we need to be saved from the wrath of the God that set the whole paradigm to working.

God set no paradigm for mankind except what would have resulted from their continued obedience....everlasting life in paradise. But, right from the beginning of their defection, the Creator purposed for a saviour who would rescue Adam's children, who were born into this situation through no fault on their part. (Romans 5:12)

Adam and his wife abused their free will. But all their children having the same free will, had to choose who to obey as well.
 
So how does Jesus' blood pay for what Adam did? If sacrificing animals allowed the Jews forgiveness of their sins for centuries without Christ's blood, how did Jesus' dying make a difference? Can you explain?



I see a problem here. Jesus' sacrifice was to cover our sins...right? He had to die to cancel the debt. But if Jesus was God, then God is immortal.....which means he cannot die. How did humans kill God? If humans truly killed God, then who resurrected him? If Jesus didn't really die then the debt is not paid.



This says that at baptism, your sins are forgiven, so does that automatically mean that you are saved? What about Matthew 24:13?



Yes, I agree that full immersion baptism is required because of the symbolism. Dying to one's former life and being raised to serve God's will first in your life. So isn't baptism just the beginning? If we need to "endure to the end" in order to be "saved", then more is required, isn't it?

What do you believe that we are being saved from?

1. Jesus sacrifice does not go back in time. Before judaism people went by faith alone. Than by judaism. Than by christianity. The former two are sort of stop gap systems while christianity is prepared but are not perfect as they dont actually cleanse someone. Book of hebrews explains this thats why its called hebrews its meant to convine jews to switch over.
2.well i ( and the bible) did emphasize god came down as a human form i.e jesus is god and man. Gospels go through great lengths to explain this but some people like muslims just cant get it. As to the process used thats irrelevent.
3 and 4 are similar your right baptism is the beginning one can " fall away" bu th also come back notice how the churches in 1 and 2 chap in revelations are dealt with.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
If God is all powerful why did jesus have to die for us?Why did God not make another way to save us?

A guy who murders very animal and human being on the planet except a close buddy, the buddies immediate family and a few thousand animals is hardly likely to be put out by a son conceived of a bit of magic dying.
 

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Do you think he knew in advance that they would disobey? What if he chose not to? What if he wanted that to be their choice?
I don't think "what if's" are the issue.
I think if we're discussing the God of our Bible we have to contain our discussion to what he inspired to be written about him.
He is omniscient. And, he predestined those who would be saved from their sins before he created the world itself. That means, before Eden.
We're told, God predestined those who would come to him, be saved, before the creation of the world.
Seek scriptures that pertain to predestination and predetermination, determinism, in scripture. There are plenty to be found.

Here's a question that we should all consider.
If Eden was paradise and Adam and Eve were naked innocents there, why before God made them did he plant a tree full of fruit forbidden them later on?
Fruit that when consumed would give Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong.
Whereas prior to consuming that fruit they were unconscious of such things. Which necessarily means they were incapable of obeying directives pertaining to obedience. And conversely, comprehending the consequence of disobedience.

He gave humans free will, so the command not to eat just that one fruit, when he had generously given them access to every other fruit tree in the garden, was a small test of their respect for his sovereignty, and what he claimed as his own 'property'.
See above.
There is no such thing as free will within the dominion, sovereignty, of omniscience.
Our illusion is that we have free choice. Proverbs 16:9

That one tree and what it represented, (the right to decide what was good and what was evil) belonged exclusively to God, so taking of its fruit was stealing from their Creator and disrespecting his sovereign right to set reasonable limits.
None of which pertains to Adam and Eve. Who had know knowledge of good nor evil, obedience nor disobedience. And the rewards/consequences thereof.
Imagine putting a baby able to crawl in a room. You tell the newborn that they're able to play in this room. But the pink teddy bear in the corner is not to be touched.
The baby eventually makes their way to that brilliantly pink bear and touches it.
You enter the room, scoop them up, and put them outside. Because they disobeyed the directive to not touch that bear. Then, you walk away and let them make due in the world. After promising them they'd suffer to survive all their days. Because of that one touch of that bear.



Actually, there was nothing wrong with the fruit in and of itself.....it was what the fruit represented that caused the problem. Adam and his wife were not encumbered by sin. Theirs was a deliberate act of disobedience, in full knowledge of the stated consequences. There was no excuse for what they did, and no basis to forgive them. The devil too knew that disobedience carried the death penalty, but all he cared about was himself.
There is no semblance of similarity between the Devil and Adam and Eve.
The Devil was Lucifer. One of God's angels. Highly intelligent in the beginning as God made him to be.
Adam and Eve possessed no intellect. They were innocent as newborns.
They were not possessed of the understanding of obedience and disobedience. The tree of knowledge.
It's fruit that which would imbue them with the requisite understanding of good and evil was forbidden them.
Prior to eating it they were incapable of comprehending directives and complying to edicts of obedience. Understanding the consequence of non-compliance, disobedience.


God set no paradigm for mankind except what would have resulted from their continued obedience....everlasting life in paradise.
That's not true. Even with a cursory glance of the scripture in Genesis, that is clearly not true.
It was not paradise when God permitted Satan to gain entry, with his knowledge of the ultimatum God gave Adam and Eve.

But, right from the beginning of their defection, the Creator purposed for a saviour who would rescue Adam's children, who were born into this situation through no fault on their part. (Romans 5:12)
That's true. All is predestined by God. That's why the tree of knowledge was created by him and planted in Eden.
A forbidden tree that's fruit would lead to the verdict of eternal damnation until salvation by creator is not a paradise garden. It is the launching pad for the game of polarities.
And there is no scripture that sustains inherited (from Adam) sin.
We are all responsible for our own actions when we are able to be held accountable for them. Having now the understanding the first people did not concerning obedience and its opposite, disobedience.

Adam and his wife abused their free will. But all their children having the same free will, had to choose who to obey as well.
They had free will as much as a newborn does.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
The first individual of the genus Homo-species very likely formed from a couple of Australopithecus hetero zygotes…
And what on earth has this to do with the topic of the thread, which is the Christian doctrine of Atonement?

Of course the author of Genesis knew nothing about evolution. But he didn't have to: he was writing about religion, not biology.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Go to the part of the Book of Job, where he complains to God. When we question God, we are trying to BE God. We were created for his purposes and he alone knows them.
I feel Job is simply doing what Jesus does upon the cross. He's not sinning. When Job complains to the LORD, he merely complains that he feels he is suffering unjustly. His experience is contrary to the promise in the Torah. He has been not just law abiding but good in his heart and intentions. He's done everything he can, yet he is suffering curses instead of blessings. This reflects the personal experience of many Jews (and also other righteous people). Everyone wonders why good people suffer as much or more than bad people. Its the same as the question "Why do some children starve?" It can't be wrong to wonder about that.

I think its not forbidden to question God in general, but for Christians it is forbidden (I think) to judge another person's relationship with God. Then we are stepping into God's shoes and dishonoring God by dishonoring God in them.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
1. Jesus sacrifice does not go back in time. Before judaism people went by faith alone. Than by judaism. Than by christianity. The former two are sort of stop gap systems while christianity is prepared but are not perfect as they dont actually cleanse someone. Book of hebrews explains this thats why its called hebrews its meant to convine jews to switch over.
2.well i ( and the bible) did emphasize god came down as a human form i.e jesus is god and man. Gospels go through great lengths to explain this but some people like muslims just cant get it. As to the process used thats irrelevent.
3 and 4 are similar your right baptism is the beginning one can " fall away" bu th also come back notice how the churches in 1 and 2 chap in revelations are dealt with.

You're theology is odd to me.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I feel Job is simply doing what Jesus does upon the cross. He's not sinning. When Job complains to the LORD, he merely complains that he feels he is suffering unjustly. His experience is contrary to the promise in the Torah. He has been not just law abiding but good in his heart and intentions. He's done everything he can, yet he is suffering curses instead of blessings. This reflects the personal experience of many Jews (and also other righteous people). Everyone wonders why good people suffer as much or more than bad people. Its the same as the question "Why do some children starve?" It can't be wrong to wonder about that.

I think its not forbidden to question God in general, but for Christians it is forbidden (I think) to judge another person's relationship with God. Then we are stepping into God's shoes and dishonoring God by dishonoring God in them.

Remember the original premise of the Book of Job. The satin wanted to test Job to see if he really was God's, and who would expect satin to do anything but his worst to Job? I do not obey Christian boundaries.

We are each shaped by our experiences, and surely none of us experience the same things?

Some of us would have been aborted if that had been available. Some were the product of drunken debauchery. Others were raised by insane people, perhaps awful enough that when we got away from that, we felt that we know how NOT to live, so anything else was worth trying. Understanding how a survivor thinks might not work out. Some seek the Creator because nothing else makes sense to them.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
1. Jesus sacrifice does not go back in time. Before judaism people went by faith alone. Than by judaism. Than by christianity. The former two are sort of stop gap systems while christianity is prepared but are not perfect as they dont actually cleanse someone. Book of hebrews explains this thats why its called hebrews its meant to convine jews to switch over.

Not entirely sure how you arrive at your conclusions....but actually, blood was offered for the sins of the pre-Christian Israelites, but it was the blood of animals and it needed to be offered regularly. So faith and blood made forgiveness possible, but on a temporary basis. It kept Israel reminded of their need for the Messiah to come and establish his kingdom.

Christ's sacrifice was the permanent one....offered "once, for all time". His blood was going to free mankind from sin forever. His blood was represented by the blood of the animals offered in Israel. Because blood (representing life itself) was necessary for the payment of the debt that Adam left for his children. A sinless life for a sinless life. (1 Corinthians 15:45) Right?

2.well i ( and the bible) did emphasize god came down as a human form i.e jesus is god and man. Gospels go through great lengths to explain this but some people like muslims just cant get it. As to the process used thats irrelevent.

Nothing is irrelevant in this question. How can Jesus be "fully God" (immortal) and be "fully human" (mortal) at the same time? One cancels out the other.
Can mere humans kill God? I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where God says that he came to earth in human form.....nor is there a single statement by Jesus claiming that he was God, or equal to his God in any way.

The Churches have inferred this but ignored the scripture that proves that it is false. There is no trinity in the Bible. So, it's not just Muslims who reject it, but Jews (and some Christians like myself). Jesus was Jewish, so it is not something he taught or ever even hinted at. Can you provide even one clear statement by Jesus where he says that he is God?

3 and 4 are similar your right baptism is the beginning one can " fall away" bu th also come back notice how the churches in 1 and 2 chap in revelations are dealt with.

God's forgiveness has clearly stated conditions. We have to be forgiving of others ourselves.....and coupled with our faith in Jesus' sacrifice, we have to demonstrate genuine repentance if we have done the wrong thing.

Jesus' messages to the churches in Revelation are an indication that he is looking to offer commendation where it is merited, but it also reveals that he will not overlook their shortcomings. Matthew 7:21-23 is proof that "many" are just not going to make it through the final judgment, despite their claims of doing even powerful works 'in his name'. What are they doing wrong, in your estimations?
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Remember the original premise of the Book of Job. The satin wanted to test Job to see if he really was God's, and who would expect satin to do anything but his worst to Job? I do not obey Christian boundaries.
Ok, but even though Job is told that he just doesn't know what is going on its his friends who really get corrected, because they judge Job. They say there must be something wrong with him, and they are rebuked. They mistreated their friend by doing so. I extend it and think they would have offended the deity by doing so, if that could be possible.

We are each shaped by our experiences, and surely none of us experience the same things?

Some of us would have been aborted if that had been available. Some were the product of drunken debauchery. Others were raised by insane people, perhaps awful enough that when we got away from that, we felt that we know how NOT to live, so anything else was worth trying. Understanding how a survivor thinks might not work out. Some seek the Creator because nothing else makes sense to them.
So don't blame others for our problems? Its not always easy or possible, but I agree we should live in the moment. I think that is the point I am taking from your post.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Ok, but even though Job is told that he just doesn't know what is going on its his friends who really get corrected, because they judge Job. They say there must be something wrong with him, and they are rebuked. They mistreated their friend by doing so. I extend it and think they would have offended the deity by doing so, if that could be possible.


So don't blame others for our problems? Its not always easy or possible, but I agree we should live in the moment. I think that is the point I am taking from your post.

It is difficult to balance simply telling the truth, yet not allowing bitterness to set in, and I don't always do it well. One of the central beliefs is to forgive others and forgiveness could be a treatise on its own. I have to be careful to not allow thinking of the past to allow new anger and bitterness to form.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Ready for some more novels again....? :p You raise some important points, so I couldn't help myself...

I don't think "what if's" are the issue.
I think if we're discussing the God of our Bible we have to contain our discussion to what he inspired to be written about him.

I always try to do that. For example, Isaiah 6:8 says..."And I heard the voice of the Lord as he said “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” and I said “Here I am, send me.”
Why would God ask such a question if he had already pre-determined Isaiah's actions? He allowed Isaiah to volunteer for this assignment of his own free will. The fact is, I believe that God can know whatever he chooses to know....but I also think that means he can choose not to.

e.g. If you were a master locksmith and you invented a key that would unlock every lock in the world....would you have to unlock every lock, just because you could? I believe that God's omniscience is selective.

He is omniscient. And, he predestined those who would be saved from their sins before he created the world itself. That means, before Eden.
We're told, God predestined those who would come to him, be saved, before the creation of the world.
Seek scriptures that pertain to predestination and predetermination, determinism, in scripture. There are plenty to be found.

Actually that is not true. God did not pre-determine anything for any individual who was not a vital part of his purpose.

The expression "from the founding of the world" doesn't mean from the creation of the planet. This expression has to do with the "founding" of the human race. It carries the meaning of laying down seed (as in human conception) so it is referring to the creation and continuation of the human race from Adam and his wife...all of whom would need a release from their situation, imposed through no fault on their part.

What God did in Eden, was allow the humans to exercise their free will, and then respond to their choices. As soon as they disobeyed his command, he implemented the way to address the situation with his first prophesy in Genesis 3:15. God pre-determined an outcome, but not the individuals who would find a place in it. Otherwise free will was just a sad illusion.

Here's a question that we should all consider.
If Eden was paradise and Adam and Eve were naked innocents there, why before God made them did he plant a tree full of fruit forbidden them later on?
Fruit that when consumed would give Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong.
Whereas prior to consuming that fruit they were unconscious of such things. Which necessarily means they were incapable of obeying directives pertaining to obedience. And conversely, comprehending the consequence of disobedience.

OK, consider this....

What did God give to his human children in Eden? What more could they have needed? How could they have possibly doubted his love and generosity? What did he withhold? Just the fruit of one tree. Did that create any hardship or deprivation? What did that tree represent? "The knowledge of good and evil". That was something that God placed in his own jurisdiction. Humans were not to decide for themselves what was good or evil, their Creator would provide all that was good and keep evil things away from them. In its right place, it would have been their greatest blessing.

So, what did their "innocence" actually mean? The fruit wasn't poison....they both ate it, but they did not physically die that day.
The fact that their first awareness of sin was their nakedness, shows that the evil associated with their naked state was disturbing to them. Shame was a new experience. God did not create his human children to make their own decisions about good and evil. He placed that in his own jurisdiction. But once they had unleashed that knowledge, there was no "unlearning" it. So God stepped in with his solution. One that would demonstrate without a shadow of doubt that humans cannot determine their own future successfully without following the instructions of their Maker.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There is no such thing as free will within the dominion, sovereignty, of omniscience.
Our illusion is that we have free choice. Proverbs 16:9

Proverbs 16: 9..."A man may plot out his course in his heart,
But it is Jehovah who directs his steps."


Do you see in that scripture, the most important part of man's plans? He must allow Jehovah to direct his steps....something Adam and his wife failed to do. There was no excuse for their disobedience because they were not encumbered by a sinful nature, and the consequences were clearly stated. They would die if they disobeyed God's only negative command. It was the devil who lied to the woman. He fooled her, but Adam was not fooled. (1 Timothy 2:14)
The Bible says that the fall of man was due to Adam's actions, not just the woman's. (Romans 5:12)


None of which pertains to Adam and Eve. Who had know knowledge of good nor evil, obedience nor disobedience. And the rewards/consequences thereof.
Imagine putting a baby able to crawl in a room. You tell the newborn that they're able to play in this room. But the pink teddy bear in the corner is not to be touched.
The baby eventually makes their way to that brilliantly pink bear and touches it.
You enter the room, scoop them up, and put them outside. Because they disobeyed the directive to not touch that bear. Then, you walk away and let them make due in the world. After promising them they'd suffer to survive all their days. Because of that one touch of that bear.

Adam and Eve were not children. Nor was Adam a newbie. He was created quite some time before his wife, as God educated the man before taking on the responsibilities of a husband and father. He had seen all the other creatures with a mate, but there was none like him, so when it was the right time, Adam was given "flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones". As family head, (a Patriarch) Adam was responsible for the education of his family members. The fact that Eve was able to restate God's command respecting the TKGE was proof that he had done his job. Education was to be ongoing for both of them as everlasting life here on earth was before them.
The woman was the younger and less experienced of the two and that is why the devil approached her first. The man was his target all along, so in a calculated way, he got to the man through his wife. He made him divide his loyalties...something he still does. Divide and conquer.

The Devil was Lucifer. One of God's angels. Highly intelligent in the beginning as God made him to be.

Firstly, "Lucifer" was not a name ever given to the devil in scripture. (More about that later if you are interested in exploring it.)

There is no semblance of similarity between the Devil and Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve possessed no intellect. They were innocent as newborns.
They were not possessed of the understanding of obedience and disobedience. The tree of knowledge.
It's fruit that which would imbue them with the requisite understanding of good and evil was forbidden them.
Prior to eating it they were incapable of comprehending directives and complying to edicts of obedience. Understanding the consequence of non-compliance, disobedience.

That is what I was taught in the church I attended when I was young. But none of that made sense to me. How could God expect something so important (life or death) of those to whom he gave no knowledge? How could he expect obedience when they didn't understand the consequences? Would a loving Father do such a thing? I was determined to find out because God was looking like the bad guy here. I knew he couldn't be.

When I discovered that there was a lot I had never been told, I saw that Adam was well educated by the time his wife was given to him. He had named all the animals and had no distraction whilst God prepared him to lead the future generations in his unfolding purpose.....to be "fruitful and become many, and fill the earth and subdue it". It wasn't that they did not know that good and evil existed, but that it was not given to them to decide which was which. Now that sin has been in the world for so long...can people today tell the difference? What used to be bad is now considered "normal" and what is good (in the Biblical sense) is now old fashioned nonsense.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That's not true. Even with a cursory glance of the scripture in Genesis, that is clearly not true.
It was not paradise when God permitted Satan to gain entry, with his knowledge of the ultimatum God gave Adam and Eve.

Here is something else that always puzzled me. Why did God let the devil into that beautiful setup? It wasn't until I saw in the book of Ezekiel, something that was addressed to the King of Tyre. But subtly he was speaking about satan.

Ezekiel 28:
"You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.
You were adorned with every precious stone
—Ruby, topaz, and jasper; chrysʹo·lite, onyx, and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald;
And their settings and mountings were made of gold.

They were prepared on the day you were created.
14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.

You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.

15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created

Until unrighteousness was found in you.

16 Because of your abundant trade,
You became filled with violence, and you began to sin. . . .
17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.
You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor."


This is why satan was there. He was in a guardianship position in the garden. He abused that position to observe the situation and to plot his mode of attack. He was a glorious spirit creature who became discontented with his station and wanted to be worshipped as a god himself. Humans would fit that bill quite nicely.

That's true. All is predestined by God. That's why the tree of knowledge was created by him and planted in Eden.
A forbidden tree that's fruit would lead to the verdict of eternal damnation until salvation by creator is not a paradise garden. It is the launching pad for the game of polarities.
That is how it has come to be seen, but not when you really examine the evidence and compare scripture with scripture. The Bible always explains itself.

And there is no scripture that sustains inherited (from Adam) sin.

But there is scripture that sustains inherited sin.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22...."For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive."

Romans 5:12..."That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned."

You see, Adam was the one who was responsible for sin entering the genetics of mankind. But none of it was planned by God. Free willed beings made their choices and God responded accordingly whilst keeping his first purpose in view. (Isaiah 55:11) He had always intended for the earth to be our permanent home...why else would he put a tree of life in the garden to ensure that they lived forever? It was the first thing God did in response to their sin.....he "barred the way to the tree of life" so that couldn't live forever. (Genesis 3:22-24)

We are all responsible for our own actions when we are able to be held accountable for them. Having now the understanding the first people did not concerning obedience and its opposite, disobedience.

All of the above is the reason why I must disagree with you here. Adam and his wife were held accountable because they were wholly accountable.
The implementation of the penalty was not disclosed, but it didn't have to be since the fall of man was used by the Creator to show humans what happens when they disobey him and follow their own ideas.Would we ever want to be in this situation again? They are lessons learned the hard way because experience is the best teacher. We then have precedents by which all future actions will be judged. This kind of rebellion can never happen again.

They had free will as much as a newborn does.

Not so. They were humans on a journey of discovery. They had the best possible start and no one really knows the details of how long they were in existence before the devil decided to defect and take the humans hostage to his will and desires.

Jesus paid the ransom that secured our release, and now we are just waiting to go "home". (Ephesians 1:7)

That is how we see things.
 
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If God is all powerful why did jesus have to die for us?Why did God not make another way to save us?
The reason we had to sacrifice animals to atone for sins in the past, is because God wanted us to see the seriousness of sin. The idea would be for people to realize that through their disobedience they are causing an innocent animal to die. To anybody that loves animals, or life in general, this should be a shocking thing to have to do.

Imagine if you had to kill your pet that you have because of a sin you willfully committed. Wouldn't you feel terrible afterwards and want nothing but to not have sinned? This should cause you to think twice before you sin again.

Likewise, Jesus, a perfect man, came and died for our sins, as an expression of God's love; but also another example of an innocent life dying for our own actions. This should get US to think twice before we sin.

God couldn't do it another way because this is the only way that we would be able to understand the love of God and why we need Him.

In Peace
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The reason we had to sacrifice animals to atone for sins in the past, is because God wanted us to see the seriousness of sin. The idea would be for people to realize that through their disobedience they are causing an innocent animal to die. To anybody that loves animals, or life in general, this should be a shocking thing to have to do.

Imagine if you had to kill your pet that you have because of a sin you willfully committed. Wouldn't you feel terrible afterwards and want nothing but to not have sinned? This should cause you to think twice before you sin again.

Likewise, Jesus, a perfect man, came and died for our sins, as an expression of God's love; but also another example of an innocent life dying for our own actions. This should get US to think twice before we sin.

God couldn't do it another way because this is the only way that we would be able to understand the love of God and why we need Him.

In Peace

That is introducing a new perspective. Thank you.

If a sparrow does not fall to the ground without the Father's knowledge, God would also be saddened by animals having to give their lives for the sins of his people.....now imagine Abraham being asked to sacrifice Isaac! This is pictorial of the Father offering his beloved son in order pay for our sins. This is something Jesus did willingly.

Nice post.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
If God is all powerful why did jesus have to die for us?Why did God not make another way to save us?

The NT often takes from previous myth rather than the OT. The dying/rise god/man story, as well as human sacrifice is from mystery cults, not the OT. The OT allowed animal sacrifice, yet in the NT, a human man is allowed to be sacrificed. Ugh.
 
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