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How true is your truth?

Vaderecta

Active Member
It's my impression that Buddhism, along with some other religions, has a somewhat more accurate take on the effects and consequences of our having a psychological self than does, say, mainstream Catholicism (although, outside the mainstream, Catholicism can hold its own on the subject). That's why I suggested they might have a briefer way of explaining how having a psychological self could lead to a feeling or attitude that one's life is worthless than I do.

I would strongly dispute your apparent belief that all religions are more or less the same in terms of the value and truthfulness of their insights. If I wanted to know something about the nature of the psychological self, for instance, I would be much wiser to consult a Zen master than an Evangelical Protestant minister. Or have I misunderstood you?

Is it possible that a Protestant minister might know more than a Zen Master? Who grants and measures these titles? I have met people of many faiths who I think are experts in certain realms and even they seem to be able to seperate their real life skills from their religious ones. (Not always)

I think you are trying to say some religions are more realistic and plausible than others but if someone is of a less plausible religion I am pretty sure that is just one data point. We are going to have consider everyone for who they are despite what they believe today. If you ran into me a few decades ago I would be at your door trying to convince you of a way forward in the afterlife I no longer believe in.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Is it possible that a Protestant minister might know more than a Zen Master? Who grants and measures these titles? I have met people of many faiths who I think are experts in certain realms and even they seem to be able to seperate their real life skills from their religious ones. (Not always)

I think you are trying to say some religions are more realistic and plausible than others but if someone is of a less plausible religion I am pretty sure that is just one data point. We are going to have consider everyone for who they are despite what they believe today. If you ran into me a few decades ago I would be at your door trying to convince you of a way forward in the afterlife I no longer believe in.

I'm not sure about whether some religions are overall "more realistic and plausible" than others. But I do know that some religions tend to have areas of insight that appear to me more valuable, useful, and true than do other religions concerning the same areas of insight.

As for what might distinguish a Zen master from an Evangelical Protestant minister in terms of insights into the psychological self, I think that's a hugely complex issue that involves -- among other things -- how several independent lines of evidence point to the Zen tradition having on the whole more insight into that area than the Evangelical tradition.

For instance, discoveries in the neurosciences tend to more compatible with the Zen tradition than with the Evangelical. Again, the Zen tradition has long made that area a primary concern, the Evangelical tradition only treats it on the periphery, if at all. And so forth. It is not as if all traditions focus on the same areas to the same extent, nor can be expected to be equal in their insights.

By the way, have you much studied Buddhism or Zen? I'm just curious.
 

Vaderecta

Active Member
I'm not sure about whether some religions are overall "more realistic and plausible" than others. But I do know that some religions tend to have areas of insight that appear to me more valuable, useful, and true than do other religions concerning the same areas of insight.

As for what might distinguish a Zen master from an Evangelical Protestant minister in terms of insights into the psychological self, I think that's a hugely complex issue that involves -- among other things -- how several independent lines of evidence point to the Zen tradition having on the whole more insight into that area than the Evangelical tradition.

For instance, discoveries in the neurosciences tend to more compatible with the Zen tradition than with the Evangelical. Again, the Zen tradition has long made that area a primary concern, the Evangelical tradition only treats it on the periphery, if at all. And so forth. It is not as if all traditions focus on the same areas to the same extent, nor can be expected to be equal in their insights.

By the way, have you much studied Buddhism or Zen? I'm just curious.

I meditate. A lot. I grew up catholic and than jehovah witness. I lost myself for a bit. (I'm not being coy... I had a lot of issues)

I ended up as a hard core atheist. It didn't really click though. I'm more now of a militant agnostic. I don't know and neither do you! (Hehe, thats the joke)

I was trying to express that just because someone is protestant or whatever its just a data point. Who knows how they got there or what they think. Its not really a pivot point for arguments on consciousness or what have you. There are some dumb zen masters and super smart mormon eldars... Religion is sometimes just a thing they adopted and identify as even if it has nothing to do with their actual identity.
 

Adom

Member
My truth requires proof. Loaded with anecdotes, I see you and say 'I know buddy you don't listen unless someone does some magic, but I'm just not there yet.'
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I meditate. A lot. I grew up catholic and than jehovah witness. I lost myself for a bit. (I'm not being coy... I had a lot of issues)

I ended up as a hard core atheist. It didn't really click though. I'm more now of a militant agnostic. I don't know and neither do you! (Hehe, thats the joke)

Interesting history. Thanks for sharing.

I was trying to express that just because someone is protestant or whatever its just a data point. Who knows how they got there or what they think. Its not really a pivot point for arguments on consciousness or what have you. There are some dumb zen masters and super smart mormon eldars... Religion is sometimes just a thing they adopted and identify as even if it has nothing to do with their actual identity.


Of course there are some dumb Zen masters and smart Mormon elders. On that we agree. But I would not think Mormonism, taken as a body of knowledge, is nearly as expert on the psychological self as Zen. You might have a very smart Mormon elder who can run circles around a dumb Zen master in that department, but if so, it's not because the elder is drawing on the knowledge of his tradition. He's much more likely drawing on his own experience -- or maybe he at some point in his life studied other traditions. If we disagree, I think we might disagree on the significance of those facts.
 

Vaderecta

Active Member
Of course there are some dumb Zen masters and smart Mormon elders. On that we agree. But I would not think Mormonism, taken as a body of knowledge, is nearly as expert on the psychological self as Zen. You might have a very smart Mormon elder who can run circles around a dumb Zen master in that department, but if so, it's not because the elder is drawing on the knowledge of his tradition. He's much more likely drawing on his own experience -- or maybe he at some point in his life studied other traditions. If we disagree, I think we might disagree on the significance of those facts.

That's it exactly. Who cares what religion they are if they know about this extrinisic point of knowledge and can explain it? So a Protestant is explaining to you or a Buddhist? I don't read into their religion as a point of contradiction. Anymore than I would say so an American said this? What do the Chinese think? Have you asked a Japanese person? Religion doesn't seem to factor in anymore than where you were born or how you grew up. I don't pivot on peoples religion as a point of their ideas on consciousness.(Yes there are some common threads but if you are really discussing the idea I dont think it matters if they are Zen or Satanists)
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
That's it exactly. Who cares what religion they are if they know about this extrinisic point of knowledge and can explain it? So a Protestant is explaining to you or a Buddhist? I don't read into their religion as a point of contradiction. Anymore than I would say so an American said this? What do the Chinese think? Have you asked a Japanese person? Religion doesn't seem to factor in anymore than where you were born or how you grew up. I don't pivot on peoples religion as a point of their ideas on consciousness.(Yes there are some common threads but if you are really discussing the idea I dont think it matters if they are Zen or Satanists)

I think I understand your position now. I don't agree with it, but I think I might understand it. At this point we're just repeating ourselves, so I think it's best to just agree to disagree. Thanks for an interesting conversation.
 

Vaderecta

Active Member
I think I understand your position now. I don't agree with it, but I think I might understand it. At this point we're just repeating ourselves, so I think it's best to just agree to disagree. Thanks for an interesting conversation.

Cheers. To clarify I don't think what religion you are says anything about your ideas. If I wanted to talk about what a self means and what I might be I think a mormon might have as many good ideas as a zen master. You might want to lean one way or the other but I don't think that matters. And you can check me on this in terms of religion and general population and the best sources on those stats are probably muslims and christians.

Buddhists are rare in my city but they are not perfect people. You can research their history. There is a lot I admire though and want to know more about but their core beliefs are no more outlandish than any other religion.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
So we live in this weird time and place now. You can research your own beliefs and come to terms with what is out there. Was 9/11 an inside job? Did we find aliens at roswell? Was Jesus god's son?

Have you researched your truths before arguing them? We have all this technology which connects us to everyone else. Do you care what the rest of the humans think?

Do i research? Yes
Was 9/11 an inside job? Have no clue
Did we find Alians in Roswell? Dont care
Was Jesus God son? Yes
Do I care what other Humans think? About those question you asked, then No
 

Vaderecta

Active Member
Do i research? Yes
Was 9/11 an inside job? Have no clue
Did we find Alians in Roswell? Dont care
Was Jesus God son? Yes
Do I care what other Humans think? About those question you asked, then No

This is a great response. How did you learn about god and his son or even 9/11 or dive deeper the alphabet and your culture?

I'll include myself, we all just know what we know right? We have tools that people of ancient times didn't have. Let's use them not to confirm our beliefs but instead to define them.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
This is a great response. How did you learn about god and his son or even 9/11 or dive deeper the alphabet and your culture?

I'll include myself, we all just know what we know right? We have tools that people of ancient times didn't have. Let's use them not to confirm our beliefs but instead to define them.

I only learned about 9/11 in the news and those are mostly fake anyway so i dont take it as facts, i heard conspiracy theory about it was inside job, but do not know. and it happend in 2001 so i dont look at it anymore, because it is past.

About Jesus being Gods son. I read it in the bible in my younger age. I dont doubt religious texts.
I dont live a life as of my culture in Norway, i live as a buddhist with teachings from India.
Alphabet i learned in school when i was a kid. did it make me research it deeper then only to be able to write? no
 
Have you researched your truths before arguing them?

To some extent. Things that I care about I tend to find information for.

It would be naive to think all of my ideas are based on a solid evidential foundation though, there are just too many of them and thorough research takes so long.

Also humans are persuaded far more by emotions and instincts than they are by evidence, so we all have this cross to bear, along with the fact that our prior beliefs create bias in how we view any new evidence.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
That's it exactly. Who cares what religion they are if they know about this extrinisic point of knowledge and can explain it? So a Protestant is explaining to you or a Buddhist? I don't read into their religion as a point of contradiction. Anymore than I would say so an American said this? What do the Chinese think? Have you asked a Japanese person? Religion doesn't seem to factor in anymore than where you were born or how you grew up. I don't pivot on peoples religion as a point of their ideas on consciousness.(Yes there are some common threads but if you are really discussing the idea I dont think it matters if they are Zen or Satanists)
Yes; words are not truth.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
So we live in this weird time and place now. You can research your own beliefs and come to terms with what is out there. Was 9/11 an inside job? Did we find aliens at roswell? Was Jesus god's son?

Have you researched your truths before arguing them? We have all this technology which connects us to everyone else. Do you care what the rest of the humans think?

It is my understanding that truth is relevant to needs of the age we live in.

In today’s world where races, nationalities, cultures and religions are increasingly intermingling, we need to search fir a common universal truth that we can all unite around.

My research tells me that by embracing the concept of the oneness of humanity we can reconcile our differences and establish a world civilisation upon humanitarian principles which will benefit all.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
So we live in this weird time and place now. You can research your own beliefs and come to terms with what is out there. Was 9/11 an inside job? Did we find aliens at roswell? Was Jesus god's son?

Have you researched your truths before arguing them? We have all this technology which connects us to everyone else. Do you care what the rest of the humans think?

Truth is always changing as we live and learn. At one time I believed that all the truth was in the church. Now days it seems likely that we don't know one whit of the truth as far as Human existence is concerned.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
So we live in this weird time and place now. You can research your own beliefs and come to terms with what is out there. Was 9/11 an inside job? Did we find aliens at roswell? Was Jesus god's son?

Have you researched your truths before arguing them? We have all this technology which connects us to everyone else. Do you care what the rest of the humans think?


Truth : that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.

Its good enough for me.

9/11, who knows but probably not, the likely hood of it being an inside job is not worth digging out my tinfoil hat.

Aliens, who knows but probably not, and i cant find that damn tinfoil hat

JC, there is less proof for him being born of rape by a god than being born of an affair with a roman soldier.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
So we live in this weird time and place now. You can research your own beliefs and come to terms with what is out there. Was 9/11 an inside job? Did we find aliens at roswell? Was Jesus god's son?
Interesting set of questions. Two conspiracy theories and one majority Christian belief.

Have you researched your truths before arguing them? We have all this technology which connects us to everyone else. Do you care what the rest of the humans think?
By research you mean read articles and/or books about them? I think at least those that follow the first two "truths" you ask about have consumed many articles, books and videos on the topic and have the idea about themselves that they have done "research".
 
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