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Christians or Former Christians: Did Hell Influence Your Conversion?

Did Hell Influence Your Conversion?


  • Total voters
    42

lunamoth

Will to love
Katzpur said:
and the only ones who will choose not to follow it will be choosing not to follow it out of pure stubbornness, and for no other reason.

If we are made in God's image, didn't our stubborness also come from God? So wouldn't even those very stubborn people just be following the way they are created? If you believe there is a physical place called hell, I don't see how anyone could end up there unless God wanted them there. And I can't conceive of God wanting anyone there, so I can't believe in both God and hell.

luna
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Katzpur said:
First relative to who and what? Certainly not relative to Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaiah and others who knew of the Savior long before His coming.
No, but you are saying that the Abrahamic way is the only way to God with that statement. My point was that the idea of a savior born of a virgin was around long before Christianity. And the Jews just so happened to be exiled for 50 years in a country that taught of a coming savior. Hmmm.

truth will be a lot clearer to us in the Spirit World. In the end, knowing the truth will not require guesswork. It will still involve faith, but it will be much more obvious, and the only ones who will choose not to follow it will be choosing not to follow it out of pure stubbornness, and for no other reason.
Will people know FOR SURE about the existence God in this Spirit world?
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
lunamoth said:
If we are made in God's image, didn't our stubborness also come from God? So wouldn't even those very stubborn people just be following the way they are created? If you believe there is a physical place called hell, I don't see how anyone could end up there unless God wanted them there. And I can't conceive of God wanting anyone there, so I can't believe in both God and hell.
As I stated before, Hoseah Ballou, one of the founders of American Universalism, argued that everyone is saved. No one ends up in Hell. I like that sentiment, but I had a problem with it violating free will. Basically, I could conceive of a situation in which someone might be "stubborn" enough that they would refuse communion with God even if offered directly by the Almighty Himself. (I'm using anthropomorphic language here; I personally do not envision God as a person standing in front of us holding His hand out.) It seemed to me in that case that free will made universal salvation impossible.

But I've been thinking about this. It is my argument that the "Fall" was inevitable because of free will. If we have choice, then sooner or later it is inevitable that we will choose to "go against God" (whatever that means in our respective faiths). A&E coulda been in the Garden for a millenia without eating from the tree but sooner or later, if there is free will, they would eat. So it would seem highly unfair of God to punish them or us with an eternity of suffering for one moments "disobedience." And indeed, I don't believe that God would do that.

But back to the Universal Salvation thing. If there is free will, then some people will deny God. But they won't deny God forever. If there is choice, sooner or later, those who "hold out" will change their minds, and they will be reconciled with God. I kinda picture God patiently waiting, as long as it takes. (Reminds me of the parable of the shepherd and the lost sheep.) Sooner or later all will be reconciled. It's kinda the flip side of the Fall.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Buttercup said:
No, but you are saying that the Abrahamic way is the only way to God with that statement. My point was that the idea of a savior born of a virgin was around long before Christianity.
I know. It's been around since Adam. Don't you find that kind of weird?

Will people know FOR SURE about the existence God in this Spirit world?
Probably not for sure. But I guess the point I've been trying to make is that those who don't know for sure will not be thrown into Hell. They'll be welcomed into Heaven. That's the only way a truly just God could possibly handle the situation.
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
Hell was part of the reason I ditched my Christian identity, but I think my original conversion to atheism was done more out of the (personal) improbability of what happened in the two books. As some posters might recall, I was an atheist for quite awhile. I've come to call myself out of Taoism because it already blends with my perception of the universe. I was uncomfortable calling myself an atheist, because I've always been convinced that there is some unifying force that keeps the universe working.

And personally, personal conviction shouldn't matter when it comes to suffering. Of course, I'll even go as far as to say that I don't believe even the cruelest human deserves eternal damnation.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Katzpur said:
I know. It's been around since Adam. Don't you find that kind of weird?
Zoroastrianism could have been around since Adam. But, the concept of a savior born of a virgin was definitely around long before Christianity...or even Isaiah.

Probably not for sure. But I guess the point I've been trying to make is that those who don't know for sure will not be thrown into Hell. They'll be welcomed into Heaven. That's the only way a truly just God could possibly handle the situation.
Oh I understand that...I've known that about Mormon teachings for quite some time. I'm asking about those that deny Christ during this life. Will they know about God in Spirit Prison?
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Buttercup said:
As you were contemplating becoming a Christian, did the thought of ending up in Hell influence your decision to become a Christian?
Not at all.... hell was not an influence as I did not believe such a place existed.... and after being born again, never once doubted in the redemptive suffering of Christ who died that I could live forever.

Great thread Buttercup!

S
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Scott1 said:
Not at all.... hell was not an influence as I did not believe such a place existed.... and after being born again, never once doubted in the redemptive suffering of Christ who died that I could live forever.

Great thread Buttercup!

S
What are you thoughts on hell now? Who goes there? And how could you hear about Christ but not about hell at the same time?
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Buttercup said:
What are you thoughts on hell now?
I don't think about it much at all... don't know if that's good or bad, but I just don't.
Who goes there?
Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
And how could you hear about Christ but not about hell at the same time?
In my case, the GOOD News of Christ was preached to me.... and that does not always have to include the negative.

Immaculata pray for us,
Scott
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
lilithu said:
No one ends up in Hell. I like that sentiment, but I had a problem with it violating free will. Basically, I could conceive of a situation in which someone might be "stubborn" enough that they would refuse communion with God even if offered directly by the Almighty Himself. (I'm using anthropomorphic language here; I personally do not envision God as a person standing in front of us holding His hand out.) It seemed to me in that case that free will made universal salvation impossible.
That is my point exactly. If there is truly free will, them universal salvation, while maybe not impossible, is highly improbable. Your statement about someone who was so "stubborn that he'd refuse communion with God even if offered directly by the Almighty Himself" probably pretty well sums up the LDS position on those who will end up in Hell. There will be a handful -- because some people really are that stubborn -- but definitely not a lot.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Buttercup said:
I'm asking about those that deny Christ during this life. Will they know about God in Spirit Prison?
Yes, I believe they will. God knows the condition of their hearts and He doesn't want to lose anybody. He knows why they rejected Him during this life, and the circumstances that played into their decision. That's why I believe He will give everybody every conceivable opportunity to accept Him before it's too late.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Scott1 said:
I don't think about it much at all... don't know if that's good or bad, but I just don't.
Being a Christian for over 20 years I didn't think about Hell much either.....I don't know what happened. Hell bugs the hell out of me now. :p

Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
Could you define what sins emcompass mortal sins?

In my case, the GOOD News of Christ was preached to me.... and that does not always have to include the negative.
The good news of Christ is that he came to save us from sin and eternal death. I just don't understand how someone can preach about Christ....and NOT what he saves us from. :confused: Part of the equation is missing. Other than that...Jesus is just a good guy.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
lilithu said:
As I stated before, Hoseah Ballou, one of the founders of American Universalism, argued that everyone is saved. No one ends up in Hell. I like that sentiment, but I had a problem with it violating free will. Basically, I could conceive of a situation in which someone might be "stubborn" enough that they would refuse communion with God even if offered directly by the Almighty Himself. (I'm using anthropomorphic language here; I personally do not envision God as a person standing in front of us holding His hand out.) It seemed to me in that case that free will made universal salvation impossible.

But I've been thinking about this. It is my argument that the "Fall" was inevitable because of free will. If we have choice, then sooner or later it is inevitable that we will choose to "go against God" (whatever that means in our respective faiths). A&E coulda been in the Garden for a millenia without eating from the tree but sooner or later, if there is free will, they would eat. So it would seem highly unfair of God to punish them or us with an eternity of suffering for one moments "disobedience." And indeed, I don't believe that God would do that.

But back to the Universal Salvation thing. If there is free will, then some people will deny God. But they won't deny God forever. If there is choice, sooner or later, those who "hold out" will change their minds, and they will be reconciled with God. I kinda picture God patiently waiting, as long as it takes. (Reminds me of the parable of the shepherd and the lost sheep.) Sooner or later all will be reconciled. It's kinda the flip side of the Fall.
Great post lilithu. I think very much the same way. But, I've also come to see free will as = the Fall. Two sides of the same coin. In this life we have the illusion of Other, and it is OK and right that we approach God this way. It's just part of the Fall. But in the next life, I believe, this dualism will fall away and in a sense so will free will. What gets burned in the metaphorical fire is everything (fear, judgment, covetousness...) but the love we manifest. More love now = more life eternal. We can experience this in this life in glimmers and more when we practice love; salvation is for now.

luna
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Katzpur said:
Yes, I believe they will. God knows the condition of their hearts and He doesn't want to lose anybody. He knows why they rejected Him during this life, and the circumstances that played into their decision. That's why I believe He will give everybody every conceivable opportunity to accept Him before it's too late.
Sounds pretty darn fair. Let's hope it's true. :)
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
lunamoth said:
Great post lilithu. I think very much the same way. But, I've also come to see free will as = the Fall. Two sides of the same coin. In this life we have the illusion of Other, and it is OK and right that we approach God this way. It's just part of the Fall. But in the next life, I believe, this dualism will fall away and in a sense so will free will. What gets burned in the metaphorical fire is everything (fear, judgment, covetousness...) but the love we manifest. More love now = more life eternal. We can experience this in this life in glimmers and more when we practice love; salvation is for now.

luna
I really like this viewpoint Luna....but the next question that comes to mind is....if your church doesn't teach that there's a hell, what else do you take away from the bible? I don't mean that to be offensive, but you understand that the majority of Christians believe in sort form of hell. Yet, you believe in the fall. :confused:
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Katzpur said:
That is my point exactly. If there is truly free will, them universal salvation, while maybe not impossible, is highly improbable. Your statement about someone who was so "stubborn that he'd refuse communion with God even if offered directly by the Almighty Himself" probably pretty well sums up the LDS position on those who will end up in Hell. There will be a handful -- because some people really are that stubborn -- but definitely not a lot.
But my point was that I no longer think that's the case. Why should there be a time limit to how long God is willing to "wait" for people to come around? Why would there be a time limit if God doesn't want to condemn people? As lunamoth said, the only way that the door would ever close is if God wants to close it. And I can't buy that. Not as long as there is even one person "outside." If we're talking eternity here, then the highly improbable becomes possible.

Luke 15:3-7
3 So he told them this parable: 4 "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, `Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.' 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

I used to not understand this parable, nor the one of the prodigal son. It seemed to me that God was being unfair in seemingly caring for those who disobeyed more than those who never strayed. Now I think I understand. How could one possibly be happy in heaven knowing that others are in hell? What kind of a person could be happy knowing that his/her child or parent or spouse or friend is in hell? What kind of a God could be satisfied with that? No one is saved unless everyone is saved.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Buttercup said:
Being a Christian for over 20 years I didn't think about Hell much either.....I don't know what happened. Hell bugs the hell out of me now. :p
I've only been a Christian for a few years... so maybe in time... but I do pray that God brings you peace with this subject.
Could you define what sins emcompass mortal sins?
Don't wanna get off topic, so for a complete teaching you can check here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#1846

The good news of Christ is that he came to save us from sin and eternal death. I just don't understand how someone can preach about Christ....and NOT what he saves us from. Part of the equation is missing. Other than that...Jesus is just a good guy.
We might just have a different theology on this.... being separated from God is hell for me.... the idea of hell (eternal anguish, pain, fire, etc) has no real place in a mature Christians theology. IMO.

Scott
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Buttercup said:
I really like this viewpoint Luna....but the next question that comes to mind is....if your church doesn't teach that there's a hell, what else do you take away from the bible? I don't mean that to be offensive, but you understand that the majority of Christians believe in sort form of hell. Yet, you believe in the fall. :confused:
It's a metaphor.

PS. That does not mean it is not true. ;)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
lilithu said:
How could one possibly be happy in heaven knowing that others are in hell? What kind of a person could be happy knowing that his/her child or parent or spouse or friend is in hell? What kind of a God could be satisfied with that? No one is saved unless everyone is saved.
I see what you're saying, but what about those who really don't want to be with God, who have had every conceivable chance to make the choice to spend eternity with God and yet flat out want no part of His Kingdom?
 
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