Slavery is ok in Bible?

Skwim said:

Hey, No problem. I was just pointing you toward other comments.

And welcome to RF. Always nice to have a free thinker around.

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Right on. Thank you I appreciate that.

Milton Platt said:

I’m surprised you are having to ask an atheist to find quotes in your own religious texts. That is very telling.

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You think I can remember every passage in every translation? You think I know what you mean exactly or that you've even seen it first hand? I ask you for a source, that's not so unreasonable.

Milton Platt said:

For Hebrew slaves, Exodus 21
For others Leviticus 25: 45-46
Now go ahead and rationalize that.

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You keep missing the point. I've already said that I find slavery abominable. A product of greed. As for the Bible, it says you can buy a slave. You can sell yourself or your family to slavery. Well, you have to ask yourself, why would they do that if they thought it was immoral. You are judging the morality of people from a long way away and a long time ago.

We think slavery is immoral now, but a little over 200 years ago most people didn't. Your ancestors were very likely slaves or slave owners or both.

Milton Platt said:

prison sentences are metted out in accordance with the severity of the crime. Slavery (except male Hebrew slaves) was for life. Not all slaves were theives, debtors, or prisoners of war. they were explicitly purchased for the porpose of slavery. prisoners do not “rot” in prison. they serve their sentences and are released, unless they have life sentences. How is permanent enslavement more moral than that?

You are wrong........the Israelites had prisons. look it up before you put your foot in your mouth.

If you do not feel it is moral or ethical behavior, why are you defending it? why are you defending a god who supposedly endorsed it in his own words? where is his condemnation of the practice to be found?

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I told you I'm not. And as for prisons, I'm aware of there being "prisons" although more often than not it was a pit or cistern. They didn't imprison people for offenses that were obviously preferably punished with slavery. The things I mentioned.

Trip Bapho said:

I am unsure how slavery can be justified. How could someone who is all love ever have condoned slavery?

Old Testament:

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."
(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever."(Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property."
(Exodus 21:20-21 NLT)

New Testament:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ."
(Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. "
(1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

"The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.”
(Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

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Slavery is an ancient practice that did not originate with the Bible Or God but by men nor was the Bible likely to succeed in its abolishment but the Bible did have laws regarding their proper treatment & protection.

The Bible did have numerous passages protecting the rights of slaves.

Also Baha’u’llah abolished slavery in His Most Holy Book as we were ready then to see it for what it truly is.

“It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women.”

The Kitab-i-Aqdas
Bahá'u'lláh

Bible

Laws applying to slaves

General treatment of slaves

The law protected slaves from being abused by their masters:

• Killing a slave merited punishment.1 (Ex 21:20)
• Permanently injured slaves had to be set free (Ex 21:26-27)
• Slaves who ran away from oppressive masters were effectively freed (Dt 23:15-16)

The law also gave slaves a day of rest every week (Ex 20:10, Dt 5:14).

Slavery in the OT

Unveiled Artist said:

I read the bible but I never had a personal relationship with it either in a good way seeing it of love or a bad way seeing it immoral and evil and all of that. To me, that sounds like both sides personalizing the bible as if it actually spoke from god. I can take christians words for it or my own. I chose my own.

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As does everyone. Sure they may be inspired or remember certain passages or interpretations from what they have heard from others, but ultimately, it's a big old game of telephone.

Unveiled Artist said:

Do you think Moses and Mathew described an actual god; who is the actual god? And, by what culture and nature do they derive these immoral characteristic of this god that, in its actions, we cannot see today?

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I don't believe any of it. They could describe God day in and day out, and my mind wouldn't change. They're describing something they could never, and can never demonstrate. Snake oil salesmen. That's who Moses and Matthew were.

Unveiled Artist said:

Anyway. I'm always the outsider on these topics. I never approached the bible that way.

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You mean reading what it actually says? Is that what you never did? Facetiousness aside though... I am genuinely confused what you mean here.

Unveiled Artist said:

The authors of the bible did portray god as harsh and immoral. If god is loving as christians say, than by where did the authors get the idea of an immoral god; and, why don't christians see the god of the OT and not the god they envision independent of what's written in their bible.

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But that's just it, to them it wasn't "harsh and immoral" - it somehow made sense, whether that be because they lived in a "simpler" time, where not a lot of things were known about that can make life much much easier, or because there were certain boats they didn't want to rock, or maybe they were only writing about what they knew - which was a lifetime that had certain of these "immoral" or "harsh" things in it. All of which points to The Bible being written from a place of ignorance (as pertains to standards of knowledge now set in modernity) and that it was political and agenda-driven. I very much expect that people will be saying the same things about much of what is written in our contemporary times.

And most Christians these days, as far as I have seen, barely stop to question this stuff at all. And many of those that sincerely do (again, as far as I have seen) stop being Christian.

Unveiled Artist said:

I look a bit deeper and into the intent of these things. Of course I can say god is evil and all that. But that's like talking about the evil of Maleficent in Sleeping Beauty.

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I don't claim that "God is evil." I don't believe in God. This is something that confuses the crap out of theists too. They're always asking: "If you don't believe in God, then why are you so concerned about His attributes?" And the simple answer is, they do believe in God. And so, if we pretend that God is real during our conversation, and that The Bible is His special fun times book, then there are all sorts of ways in which I can basically prove that God is an idiot and acts immorally. This isn't for my benefit! This is so those others can get a grip on the reality of what that text actually says and stop living in a dream world.

Unveiled Artist said:

Also, no need to CAPS. I can read you.

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So many emphasis-averse people on this site. Using caps is not much different from bolding, or italicizing or underlining. When I want to make sure a point is read, I may use caps. So what? What happens when I do? Does it hurt your delicate sensibilities? Can you not read what I write if I write in all capital letters? Is that what this is about? Rest assured... you could type in all caps and I wouldn't bat an eye. Your statements either stand or fall on their own. If you wanted to add some emphasis to make sure I don't miss something... you think I am going to complain? Nope. Complaints like that aren't even worthy of being voiced.

Trip Bapho said:

I am unsure how slavery can be justified. How could someone who is all love ever have condoned slavery?

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God doesn't allow slavery as you think.

Old Testament:

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."
(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

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This is not the full picture.
If you'll read the entire chapter, it explains as follows:

Every 49 years, there is a year called "Yovel".
In this year all slaves are released from their slavery.

A slave can become a slave as a mean to work instead of paying money. so if someone owes money and cannot pay it, he can become a slave instead of the payments and will be released once the "salary" covers the debt. in any way, he will be release in the "Yovel" year.
Any time, The slave's family or friends can pay the debt of the slave and release him )with a cap of the amount of money that will be paid until reaching the Yovel year_.
So if one owes more money then can be covered until the Yovel, if one wants to pay his debt, he doesn't need to pay all rather to the amount the slave have paid until the Yovel.
Besides that, slaves are not allowed to be abused. they are to be treated as a paid employee, they are to be taken care of, fed and treated with honor and dignity.
There are many more rules that clearly point to how slavery should be counted as a paid employee and not really slavery.

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

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This says that if one sold his daughter (Please note this was the way accepted in the past, and these rules are a way to lower to abusive way woman were treated. if you'll look at rules further in the books, you will see the rules are much more restricting until slavery is not allowed at all [which is the original rule]) she will not be treated as slaves as the only allowed to sell your daughter (which is considered a treason of the father in his daughter and is something that is treated as a bad thing) if she is to be wedded to the buyer or his son.
In this case, the buyer can either send her free, sell her back to the father or wed her as intended.
This is also, again, only to restrict the already existing custom to sell daughters.

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property."

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(Exodus 21:20-21 NLT)

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Its not if the salve survives a day or two, rather if he survives and not dead. in case the salve dies (regardless of the time), the owner will be punished.
Again, this is a restriction. you can already see in the first verses you pasted here, that this is not allowed in the future as slaves are not to be abused rather treated as employees.

New Testament:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ."
(Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. "
(1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

"The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.”
(Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

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Here i cannot reply as i don't know the subject enough.

A Vestigial Mote said:

As does everyone. Sure they may be inspired or remember certain passages or interpretations from what they have heard from others, but ultimately, it's a big old game of telephone.

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A Vestigial Mote said:

I don't believe any of it. They could describe God day in and day out, and my mind wouldn't change. They're describing something they could never, and can never demonstrate. Snake oil salesmen. That's who Moses and Matthew were.

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Moses could have described an actual god. I wouldn't be surprised that some cultures believe in actual deities; and, now, in the 21st century, we started making them abstract. It lets us separate the older world from the "newer." Culture does play a part. I wouldn't know how.

I'm an atheist; and, that's as far as I can make sense of it.

A Vestigial Mote said:

You mean reading what it actually says? Is that what you never did? Facetiousness aside though... I am genuinely confused what you mean here.

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I read it in full, and never had issues with it one way (of love) or another (god of hate and evil). In other words, I never read the bible in a love or hate (however defined) view. It's fun talking about it; but, I'm not scholarly to have in-depth conversations.

A Vestigial Mote said:

But that's just it, to them it wasn't "harsh and immoral" - it somehow made sense, whether that be because they lived in a "simpler" time, where not a lot of things were known about that can make life much much easier, or because there were certain boats they didn't want to rock, or maybe they were only writing about what they knew - which was a lifetime that had certain of these "immoral" or "harsh" things in it. All of which points to The Bible being written from a place of ignorance (as pertains to standards of knowledge now set in modernity) and that it was political and agenda-driven. I very much expect that people will be saying the same things about much of what is written in our contemporary times.

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I'm pretty indifferent to it, to tell you honestly.

A Vestigial Mote said:

And most Christians these days, as far as I have seen, barely stop to question this stuff at all. And many of those that sincerely do (again, as far as I have seen) stop being Christian.

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I don't know many non-christians around here. I found out my co-worker is an atheist. Another guy out of time I met in a book club from China said most people there are basically atheists. Outside of that, and Buddhist here and there, there is mostly christian. Of course I don't know them personally, but my feeling is, they would be christian till death do they part.

A Vestigial Mote said:

I don't claim that "God is evil." I don't believe in God. This is something that confuses the crap out of theists too. They're always asking: "If you don't believe in God, then why are you so concerned about His attributes?" And the simple answer is, they do believe in God. And so, if we pretend that God is real during our conversation, and that The Bible is His special fun times book, then there are all sorts of ways in which I can basically prove that God is an idiot and acts immorally. This isn't for my benefit! This is so those others can get a grip on the reality of what that text actually says and stop living in a dream world.

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Since you don't believe in god, are you (hypothetically) proving god is an idiot and immoral based on the bible? Christians don't believe god is the bible; it's just god's voice. How would you tell christians god himself is an idiot?

Would you see the bible as god's voice too in order to make that conclusion or does god stand on its own as his own immoral and idiotic character?

A Vestigial Mote said:

So many emphasis-averse people on this site. Using caps is not much different from bolding, or italicizing or underlining. When I want to make sure a point is read, I may use caps. So what? What happens when I do? Does it hurt your delicate sensibilities? Can you not read what I write if I write in all capital letters? Is that what this is about? Rest assured... you could type in all caps and I wouldn't bat an eye. Your statements either stand or fall on their own. If you wanted to add some emphasis to make sure I don't miss something... you think I am going to complain? Nope. Complaints like that aren't even worthy of being voiced.

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With my eyes: THIS, this, this, and this, makes a HUGE difference in conversation. I don't read full bold nor full caps posts at all. If it's colored, I highlight it so it is all one color. One member always talks in colors; so, I don't reply much cause it's too much work to rearrange what he/she says as a reply.

It's up to you. I'm letting you know not telling you what to do.

Unveiled Artist said:

Shrugs. Slavery is immoral in itself. The god of christians is different than the god of the OT.

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Immorality is decided by society, which is just another way of saying slavery was a product of mankind rather than God.

The Bible no more justifies slavery than it does polygamy.

InChrist said:

The Bible no more justifies slavery than it does polygamy.

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Correct, the Bible is both proslavery and pro-polygamy.

Earthling said:

Immorality is decided by society, which is just another way of saying slavery was a product of mankind rather than God.

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It is rather than god. To me, its immoral regardless

Segev Moran said:

God doesn't allow slavery as you think.

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Then why did/does it exist?

This is not the full picture.
If you'll read the entire chapter, it explains as follows:

Every 49 years, there is a year called "Yovel".
In this year all slaves are released from their slavery.

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Nice, I guess. At most, one only has to be a slave for forty-nine years.


Although, because the life expectancy in those times was only 37-41 years, it's doubtful many slaves lived long enough to be freed.

In any case, you also have this little gem to deal with:

I leave it to you to work out the apologetics here.

A slave can become a slave as a mean to work instead of paying money. so if someone owes money and cannot pay it, he can become a slave instead of the payments and will be released once the "salary" covers the debt. in any way, he will be release in the "Yovel" year.
Any time, The slave's family or friends can pay the debt of the slave and release him )with a cap of the amount of money that will be paid until reaching the Yovel year_.
So if one owes more money then can be covered until the Yovel, if one wants to pay his debt, he doesn't need to pay all rather to the amount the slave have paid until the Yovel.
Besides that, slaves are not allowed to be abused. they are to be treated as a paid employee, they are to be taken care of, fed and treated with honor and dignity.
There are many more rules that clearly point to how slavery should be counted as a paid employee and not really slavery.

Click to expand...

A Slave Is A Slave, Is A Slave, Is A Slave

This says that if one sold his daughter (Please note this was the way accepted in the past, and these rules are a way to lower to abusive way woman were treated. if you'll look at rules further in the books, you will see the rules are much more restricting until slavery is not allowed at all [which is the original rule]) she will not be treated as slaves as the only allowed to sell your daughter (which is considered a treason of the father in his daughter and is something that is treated as a bad thing) if she is to be wedded to the buyer or his son.
In this case, the buyer can either send her free, sell her back to the father or wed her as intended.
This is also, again, only to restrict the already existing custom to sell daughters.

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A Slave Is A Slave, Is A Slave, Is A Slave

Its not if the salve survives a day or two, rather if he survives and not dead. in case the salve dies (regardless of the time), the owner will be punished.
Again, this is a restriction. you can already see in the first verses you pasted here, that this is not allowed in the future as slaves are not to be abused rather treated as employees.

Here i cannot reply as i don't know the subject enough.

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A Slave Is A Slave, Is A Slave, Is A Slave

Unveiled Artist said:

It is rather than god. To me, its immoral regardless

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Well, that's an individual opinion of what is wrong. Man decided that it was moral at that time and likely, had you lived at that time, you would have come to that same conclusion, that it was moral. That's kind of why judging someone else's morality from another time and place is pointless in a way. What they thought of slavery was based upon what they knew of it, which differs a great deal with what you knew as slavery.

Earthling said:

Well, that's an individual opinion of what is wrong. Man decided that it was moral at that time and likely, had you lived at that time, you would have come to that same conclusion, that it was moral. That's kind of why judging someone else's morality from another time and place is pointless in a way. What they thought of slavery was based upon what they knew of it, which differs a great deal with what you knew as slavery.

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My morals don't change regardless the time period. I understand it was alright back then it was fine. I disagree whether god or not, I still feel its immoral. I understand, but that's as far as it goes.

Unveiled Artist said:

My morals don't change regardless the time period. I understand it was alright back then it was fine. I disagree whether god or not, I still feel its immoral. I understand, but that's as far as it goes.

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And that's the point. Presumably god's morals don't change either: Killing one's mother and father will always be wrong no matter if it's today or 2,000 BCE. And the same goes for slavery. God condoned it back in biblical times so he would condone it today. Nice guy.

,

Trip Bapho said:

I am unsure how slavery can be justified. How could someone who is all love ever have condoned slavery?

Old Testament:

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."
(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever."(Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property."
(Exodus 21:20-21 NLT)

New Testament:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ."
(Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. "
(1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

"The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.”
(Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

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It was a reference to indentured servitude. Not like unto the slavery one envisions when thinking of that American enterprise.

TheresOnlyNow said:

It was a reference to indentured servitude. Not like unto the slavery one envisions when thinking of that American enterprise.

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Right, Hebrew slavery was akin to indentured servitude. And the slavery of non-Hebrews was akin to the slavery of African-Americans in the Old South.

The Bible also had a way for slave owners to trick their valued Hebrew slaves to be slaves for life, are you aware of that verse?

Earthling said:

Remember the part where I said try not to get emotional? You ****ed that up. All I want you to do is tell me what you think is bad about slavery.

Do you think that it's wrong to kidnap a person to sell or keep them in slavery? Well, that's a crime punishable by death in the Bible.

Do you think that it's disrespectful to keep a slave? Well, slaves were often respected members of the family.

Maybe you think that it's wrong to keep a person from advancing on their own - making their own way, becoming rich. Joseph, a slave in Egypt, was the second most powerful and rich man in the entire country. A slave could have his own business, and even buy back his freedom back if he was a Jew.

How were slaves to be gotten if they couldn't be kidnapped and forced into slavery. Prisoners of war, thieves until they paid back the amount of their theft, or debtors until they paid back their indebtedness. They didn't have prisons for that sort of thing.

Now, aside from the Bible, what people throughout history have had slaves, often not nearly as protected as those in the Bible? Any?

Don't blame God for slavery. It's the workings of man. Especially don't blame a God you don't think exists because that would be stupid.

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This illustrates why the unbeliever objects to the Bible's condoning of slavery. It gives the imprimatur of a good and holy god to the practice, meaning that the believer feels compelled to defend the god from this egregious practice, as with conflating slavery with indentured servitude.

Any unbeliever can tell you that it is immoral to steal a person's freedom, to steal his labor, to steal his dignity, to steal and sell off his wife and children, and to beat the victim. The unbeliever has to try to make the practice seem less barbaric, and shift the blame from the god. Remember, with omnipotence and omniscience comes omni-responsibility.

And atheists don't blame gods for anything. We are merely pointing out that slavery is immoral, and that if a believer wants to claim that a god exists, then that god must be immoral or unable to intervene.

loverofhumanity said:

The law protected slaves from being abused by their masters:

• Killing a slave merited punishment.1 (Ex 21:20)
• Permanently injured slaves had to be set free (Ex 21:26-27)
• Slaves who ran away from oppressive masters were effectively freed (Dt 23:15-16)

The law also gave slaves a day of rest every week (Ex 20:10, Dt 5:14).

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Do you consider these moral and acceptable terms? If so, may I make your daughter my slave if I promise to give her a day off every week, to not beat her hard enough to kill her quickly, and to let her go free if I maim or paralyze her in my exuberance?

If that's not good enough for your daughter, why was it good enough for the ancients subject to these laws?

Trip Bapho said:

Islam also supports slavery. Several places in the Quran this is mentioned as well. I understand god regulates it.. Could have just said its haram.. Like Idk listening to music. Instead of saying don't.. He said don't as much.

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No this is not true, please quote these verses. No one single verse exhorting such act.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

This illustrates why the unbeliever objects to the Bible's condoning of slavery. It gives the imprimatur of a good and holy god to the practice, meaning that the believer feels compelled to defend the god from this egregious practice, as with conflating slavery with indentured servitude.

Any unbeliever can tell you that it is immoral to steal a person's freedom, to steal his labor, to steal his dignity, to steal and sell off his wife and children, and to beat the victim. The unbeliever has to try to make the practice seem less barbaric, and shift the blame from the god. Remember, with omnipotence and omniscience comes omni-responsibility.

And atheists don't blame gods for anything. We are merely pointing out that slavery is immoral, and that if a believer wants to claim that a god exists, then that god must be immoral or unable to intervene.



Do you consider these moral and acceptable terms? If so, may I make your daughter my slave if I promise to give her a day off every week, to not beat her hard enough to kill her quickly, and to let her go free if I maim or paralyze her in my exuberance?

If that's not good enough for your daughter, why was it good enough for the ancients subject to these laws?

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You don't get it. I don't see why I have to hold the hands of unbelievers and explain to them, as simply as I can, over and over everything.

A person - an ancient Israelite is desperate. Poor, in debt beyond what they can possibly pay back. They sell themselves or their children, who they can't support - into slavery. You see that? They sell themselves. They get the money. Slaves were expensive. You get it? It's like a job, no, college boy, free thinker, it's like a career. THEY GET THE MONEY!

"Oh! Oh! Oh!" The whining little atheist whines. "It's slavery. Slavery's bad." The person gets paid. Their debts get paid. Their children get fed, housed, clothed and the family gets money to live.

"Ougt O, here come the modern atheists with their time machines, traveling back from the future to protest the horrendous injustices of ancient slavery (they don't have a clue) and yay! A stone from a sling shot hit's it's mark and they send the unconscious idiot back to his time before he ****s everything up."

Earthling said:

You don't get it. I don't see why I have to hold the hands of unbelievers and explain to them, as simply as I can, over and over everything.

A person - an ancient Israelite is desperate. Poor, in debt beyond what they can possibly pay back. They sell themselves or their children, who they can't support - into slavery. You see that? They sell themselves. They get the money. Slaves were expensive. You get it? It's like a job, no, college boy, free thinker, it's like a career. THEY GET THE MONEY!

"Oh! Oh! Oh!" The whining little atheist whines. "It's slavery. Slavery's bad." The person gets paid. Their debts get paid. Their children get fed, housed, clothed and the family gets money to live.

"Ougt O, here come the modern atheists with their time machines, traveling back from the future to protest the horrendous injustices of ancient slavery (they don't have a clue) and yay! A stone from a sling shot hit's it's mark and they send the unconscious idiot back to his time before he ****s everything up."

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It is quite amusing that you think you have to hold people's hands when it is the other way around. You fixate on the indentured servitude of Hebrews while ignoring the life long slavery of non-Hebrews. Is that because you have no facile story to go with that?