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The Lord's Prayer...What are we Praying For?

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
If God has already told us by means of his word exactly how he will bring peace and security to this earth, and it doesn't involve any organization or nation of men to bring it about, why would we need faith in humans when we can have faith in God?

Humans fail again and again.....God never fails to do what he says he will. (Isaiah 55:11)

It’s faith in God’s system. The Kingdom of God is His Kingdom and cannot fail.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Christendom is fractured into thousands of disunited churches.....something Paul said would not identify true Christianity.....all had to be united in one faith. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

Paul's babel is "all things to all men", and apparently the road to approximately 38,000 (many) different sects.(1 Corinthians 9:19-23) & (Matthew 7:13)

 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Jesus taught His disciples to teach the Gospels to all the Nations, an achievement accomplished by the Christian Church's missionary work by the mid-nineteenth century despite its divisions.
Yeshua did no such thing, the Christian religion created that as part of their religious myth.
You cannot dogmatically uphold that the Chistian Bible is infallible truth and at the same time uphold that Christianity has "lost the proper way".
This is not only done by Bahai, but also by Protestants including Yehova Witnesses.

If you wish to explain where Christians fell out of touch with the (Tantric) mission of the historical Yeshua, you will have to analyse and criticize the texts in the Christian Bible as well.
If you fail to do so, you are no different from the Christians who deviated in earlier days, creating and believing in your own religious myths instead of finding truth.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
There are two forms of this prayer found in the Gospels and of the two Luke's is considerably shorter than Matthew's. The form found in the Didache is longer than MT's by a doxology at the end, which you refer to. So the question, which is original? Most believe that it would be difficult to conceive of Luke daring to leave out petitions from a longer form since the prayer is Jesus' own. More likely is the probability that Matthew added the doxology.
Jesus told us Not to use the same wording over and over again (repetition) in prayer.
Matthew and Luke are thus samples of that model Our Father prayer.
Since much is Not recorded about what Jesus said to all the peoples, then those two accounts are samples.
In other words, Jesus most likely gave a model or example of that prayer many different times or on many occasions.
So, to me that means it has nothing to do with the first time he phased it.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I might could understand saying this prayer one time but when people repeat it 20 or 30 times I think it becomes meaningless repetition. Di they think God is hard of hearing and cannot hear them the first time? What would your best friend think if you called him on the phone and repeated something 20 or 30 times? He would probably think you went crazy and I wonder if God thinks people who repeat the same thing many times are crazy.

Jesus taught us Not to repeat at Matthew 6:7, so we are Not to repetitiously say the same words but use one's own words.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I find the Kingdom of God is 'the' kingdom mentioned at Daniel 2:44
So, to me that means God's kingdom is a real government, just as the other world powers are real governments.

The "kingdom of God" will be a real governing power, after it crushes the other powers, "all at the same time", listed in Daniel 2:44-45 & 2:35. It will rule the nations with a "rod of iron" (Revelation 19:15). On the other hand, the "kingdom of heaven, at hand", in conjunction with the healing of the sick, is the kingdom at hand, using the power and Spirit of God, to show its presence.
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Jesus taught us Not to repeat at Matthew 6:7, so we are Not to repetitiously say the same words but use one's own words.

Or it could mean not to use "repetition", and once should be sufficient. In other words, a rosary would not be in order, or the use of "one's own words", repetitiously, such as is done with the "Hail Mary" sequence, and keeping tract with a rosary.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The "kingdom of God" will be a real governing power, after it crushes the other powers, "all at the same time", listed in Daniel 2:44-45 & 2:35. It will rule the nations with a "rod of iron" (Revelation 19:15). On the other hand, the "kingdom of heaven, at hand", in conjunction with the healing of the sick, is the kingdom at hand, using the power and Spirit of God, to show its presence.
I find the healing of the sick by kingdom power (Jesus) is future time as per Isaiah 33:24.
For now, there is ' spiritual healing ' with the 'oil of God's Word ' (Bible).
I find ' faith healers ' can't even heal baldness. Can't heal missing body parts, etc.
Physical healing ended with the apostles.
Physical healing will return at the coming time of Revelation 22:2.
This is when there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations at that kingdom time of a thousand years.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
It’s faith in God’s system. The Kingdom of God is His Kingdom and cannot fail.

"God's system" is the Law. The false prophet Paul has supposedly released his followers from the Law (Romans 7:6). Allah's system seems to be called Sharia. The "Word of God", the Law and the prophets, will prevail.(Revelation 19:13-15)
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I find the healing of the sick by kingdom power (Jesus) is future time as per Isaiah 33:24.
For now, there is ' spiritual healing ' with the 'oil of God's Word ' (Bible).
I find ' faith healers ' can't even heal baldness. Can't heal missing body parts, etc.
Physical healing ended with the apostles.
Physical healing will return at the coming time of Revelation 22:2.
This is when there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations at that kingdom time of a thousand years.

Isaiah 33:24 is about the healing in line with "forgiven their iniquity". People are sick, mostly because they are living in their sins. If there were some righteous sitting around, their prayers, along with the confession of the offender, could result in forgiveness of sin and healing. (James 5:15). Paul's congregation of sinners would have problems losing weight, much less growing hair. As for Revelation 22:2, that is with respect to the therapeutic value of the of certain leaves for healing the nations. Not so much for forgiving sin. The "wicked"/sinners will not be in Jerusalem, for "Jerusalem will be holy" (Joel 3:17), and the sinners, will be "outside" the "gates" (Revelation 22:14-15).
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeshua did no such thing, the Christian religion created that as part of their religious myth.
You cannot dogmatically uphold that the Chistian Bible is infallible truth and at the same time uphold that Christianity has "lost the proper way".
This is not only done by Bahai, but also by Protestants including Yehova Witnesses.

If you wish to explain where Christians fell out of touch with the (Tantric) mission of the historical Yeshua, you will have to analyse and criticize the texts in the Christian Bible as well.
If you fail to do so, you are no different from the Christians who deviated in earlier days, creating and believing in your own religious myths instead of finding truth.

But Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God being within...

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:20-21

How tantric is that?

Of all that Christ commanded, the achievement of the great commission is testimony to the persistence and resilience of Christians, despite their faults.

Christianity became derailed through the Nicene Creed in the 4th century, coincidently when the choice of New testament books was largely finalised.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
So many church goers pray the Lord's Prayer (The Our Father) rountinely in their church service, but how many actually understand what the words mean?

Matthew 6:7-13

7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8 So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

9 “Pray, then, in this way:

‘Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 ‘Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 ‘Give us this day our daily bread. 12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [ For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’ ]
(NASB)

For those who were raised in Protestant churches, the closing words in brackets are not part of the original Prayer, but were added later. Some might be surprised about that.

So....what does the Lord's Prayer mean, and did Jesus actually tell us to repeat that prayer?
What was he telling us to pray for? Is the order of our requests important?

Probably the earliest written version of the Lords prayer is found in the Didache.
In 2014 I tried to make some sense of it Using the Translation by Aaron Milavec in his work on the Didache.
First of all it should be remembered that the lords prayer is one about looking forward to the coming of the end of times (Eschatology)

The Lords prayer

from the Didache Aaron Milavec The Didache Text, translation, analysis, and commentary.

Our Father, the one in heaven,
your name be made holy,
your kingdom come,
your will be born upon earth as in heaven,
give us this day our loaf that is coming,
and forgive us our debt at the final judgement
as we likewise now forgive our debtors.
and do not lead us into the trial of the last days
but deliver us from that evil
because yours is the power and glory forever.

-o-0-o-

Below, is an attempt to give the essence of this Lords Prayer using the above translation, and some of the logic from the commentary of Aaron Milavec's book, as a guide to the sense.

our heavenly father” makes clear which father;”May your name....”his name is already holy, this make the wish clear for it to be so everywhere; “your kingdom...”makes clear the imperative for it to be established here;

may we soon be gathered in to your kingdom “ is a reference to the thought given in the didache Eucharist, comparing the gathering of the grain into a loaf to the gathering of the people into the kingdom and the desire that it should be soon.

I have left open “what” we are to be forgiven. As it is a reciprocal of what we forgive.

The second coming and the end of times was thought to be imminent.. “but spare us....”the trial and the evil of the last days are inevitable, except for the elect, who they hope to be amongst. All the petitions would seem to be eschatological and referring to one time events.

The prayer is a collective petition to God, by his people, for the establishment of his kingdom on earth. And for their successful place within it. When we repeat it as individuals we do so as one of many of the petitioners.

(my version of this)

Our Heavenly Father,
may your name be holy throughout the world
and your kingdom established among us,
so that the earth, like heaven, obeys your will.
may we soon be gathered in to your kingdom
and be forgiven at the final judgement,
as we have forgiven others.
but spare us on the day of trial
and from the evil of the last days.
because yours is the power and glory forever.




Terry Andrews July 2014


 
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Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
That is an astute observation....and one that I agree with. So what do you think that means?

well, since the outcomes of either type of prayer are mutually exclusive, there seems to be a logical contradiction in their Bible.
I don’t expect either type of prayer to be answered. Near as I can determine, there is no god to answer them.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
well, since the outcomes of either type of prayer are mutually exclusive, there seems to be a logical contradiction in their Bible.
I don’t expect either type of prayer to be answered. Near as I can determine, there is no god to answer them.

Your initial comment was.....
"It is interesting that Christians pray for god’s will to be done in one prayer, and in another prayer ask him to bend to their will and change the course of events in their favor."

Perhaps not all prayers are in accord with the instruction manual?
It basically says that all prayers must be offered "according to God's will".....not according to ours, so sometimes we can ask for an outcome that is in accord with both. That is not bending God's will, but asking for it to be applied in our case.

OTOH, some people treat God as some kind of Celestial Waiter, so when they snap their fingers, he should eagerly jump to their service. But when he fails to meet their expectations, they ditch him. (Not going back to that restaurant, the service was terrible!)

Our perception of God can come from several sources, and our expectations of who and what he is, can be a confused mix of "churching" and "parenting". For some he remains an enigma. You cannot love a mystery.

Getting an accurate handle on God can be a confounding exercise, so in my case, I ditched all I learned in church and from my parents and allowed the Bible itself to tell me who God is.

He is nothing even remotely close to what Christendom says he is. I discovered a whole other God that is not confusing or confounding at all. He is actually my best friend. More people should meet him. ;)
 
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