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Explain to me why god is real using facts
- Thread starter Felix Harris
- Start date
lukethethird
unknown member
Now you tell us.
Baha'u'llah translated means 'Glory of God'.
Christ means 'Annointed'.
Jesus, Baha'u'llah and all Gods Messenhers are all 'Annointed' as they are born of the Holy Spirit, not the human spirit and thus all we can know of God.
Look at them, their person, their lives and what they have offered and that is proof of God.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I cannot speak for other theists and their facts and evidence...
When I do post facts or evidence that support my beliefs I do not fail. I only fail to give you what you WANT, but that does not mean I failed to produce facts and evidence.
The logical conclusion is that you did not LIKE the facts and evidence so you concluded that the claims are false.
I have been going around the same block with atheists on several forums for five years so I know the drill.... I even have something all prepared for you because I knew this was coming:
Re: Evidence vs. Actual Evidence
What I have is evidence by the definition of the word evidence.
Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. https://www.google.com/search
Evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true:
EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary
Since my evidence indicates *to me* whether my belief is true and helps to prove *to me* that my beliefs are true it is evidence *to me.*
Since my evidence does not indicate *to you* that my belief is true and does not help to prove *to you* that my belief is true it is not evidence *to you.*
All you can do is decide what evidence is good or bad for you. You cannot define what is good or bad evidence unless you have proof that the evidence is good or bad. You have no proof, all you have is a personal opinion about my evidence.
Your personal opinion that I do not have any good evidence to support my beliefs amounts to nothing more than a personal opinion. It is amazing to me how many atheists do not understand something this basic. And they all say they are so good at logic.
This is the second funniest thing I have heard all year. How do you figure it is MY responsibility to prove anything to YOU?
I already believe in God and Baha’u’llah so I did MY homework. If you want to believe you have to do your own homework. I am not here to prove my beliefs to other people but if you have a *specific question* I can answer that.
I do not make claims, I just have beliefs. I *believe* they are true but I do not *claim* they are true.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is not *expected* that anyone will agree with it so any enquirer who does not agree can move along the road to the next bus stop.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Believe whatever you wish. That is why God gave us all free will.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
And a Messenger of God makes sense all of the time because He is infallible. He won’t make sense to everyone though. Because humans are fallible only some people will understand.
Which verse should I pick? There are so many to choose from. They are all in this book: William Sears, Thief in the Night
I really like this verse though, because I like geography, since it was my first major in college:
Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.”
He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.
and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.
The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.
and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.
and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.
and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.
The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Here is the problem. You alone cannot judge the evidence. If only you think what you have is evidence then it is clearly not reliable and your beliefs would be irrational.
By your standards the beliefs of Flat Earthers are "rational".
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Nice to see you again too... You are like a *breath of fresh air.*
What would first hand reports look like? That would require that God show up in person, but God is not a person so God cannot do that. Also, God is immaterial, so God cannot show up in a material world. This is *one reason* why God sends Messengers on His behalf. There are other reasons.
That is true. It is possible that all such writing is from messengers who represent imaginary gods. But logically speaking just because some messengers represent imaginary gods that does not mean all messengers represent imaginary gods. There can be two kinds of Messengers; Messengers who represent the Real God and messengers who represent imaginary gods. God has tasked us with making the differentiation as per Matthew 7:16-20
Matthew 7:20 “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”
No, not at all. The essential knowledge of God surrounds the realities of all things so God knows everything all at once, before, during and after it happens in this world where time is measured by the Sun and the stars. So God knows what you will do before you do it, but the fact that *God knows* what you will do is not what causes you to do it. Does the fact that scientists can predict the exact time and place of an eclipse before it occurs cause that eclipse to occur?
So what this amounts to is that since we can only do what God knows we will do, what we choose to do is *identical* with what God knows we will do.In a sense we determine our own fate which has already been written on the Tablet of fate, we make the movie whose script has already been written. However, some things that happen in our lives are outside of our control; e.g., accidents, injuries and diseases, thus we are not responsible for them. It is our moral choices that we have control over and are responsible for.
Why do you think that if there were such a god, there would be a way for humans to detect or discern it? If a God exists and is omnipotent, the God is the one who decides how it will be detected, so if the God does not want to be detected in any way other than Messengers, it won’t be. The thing that atheists miss is that omnipotence does not only imply *God can do anything;* it also implies the converse, *God only does what God chooses to do* which is what God wants to do.
You are correct. God usually allows us to make our own choices but God can intervene since God is omnipotent. There is no way we can know if or when God intervenes since nobody can ever know what God is doing at any time.The upshot is that we can never know how much of what we do is our will vs. God’s will, or it could be that they sometimes intersect.
True, that makes sense. But who makes the determination as to what is outstanding and impressive, what is something much less, and what could easily have been written by people without the help of God? Unless that is measurable by come objective measure it is a subjective call.
That is true, but how can we know if we are getting answers? What is we prayed for x, but God thought y was better for us and gave us y? That would be an answer even if we do not like it. An omniscient God has to know what is best for us, logically speaking. It is impossible to know if our prayers are answered unless we get exactly what we prayed for, and even then it could be a coincidence.
From you said it seems like you have certain *expectations* as to what would be observed if God existed, but how can you know what would be observed unless you know *something* about God and what is in His job description?
You just nailed it. We live in a universe with a God that does not want to be found. You have pretty good analytical abilities.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
After all that work I did, you still did not get my point.
Here is the problem. You alone cannot judge the evidence.
I have no idea why you said that but that is not true.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I understand that. The problem is that it is almost a dead certainty that your so called evidence applies only to your personal beliefs. Reliable evidence exists regardless of observer. You as much as admitted that was not the case.
If you have no idea why I said that then you cannot judge whether it is true or not. To Flat Earthers they think that they have valid evidence just as you do. That means by the standards you defined their beliefs are rational. And the inability to see this would be an example of cognitive dissonance on your part.
If the truth isn't out there, well, something pretty like it likely is, so some of us tend to continue the hunt regardless.It is not *expected* that anyone will agree with it so any enquirer who does not agree can move along the road to the next bus stop.
Can you forgive us?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is nothing to forgive you for... You are what we Baha'is refer to as a true seeker.
Carry on...
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What else would it apply to?
Whether evidence is reliable or not is in the eyes of the observer. That was my point. How we interpret evidence, even if it is objective evidence, is subjective.
That does not apply because we know the earth is not flat (there is scientific proof) but we do not know that Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger of God. Moreover, you are comparing something that can be proven with something that cannot be proven so the analogy does not work.
lukethethird
unknown member
This messenger dude, where is he now?
Skreeper
Member
You just nailed it. We live in a universe with a God that does not want to be found. You have pretty good analytical abilities.
Then I hope your God is smart enough to not blame us or punish us if we don't find him or don't even bother searching for him.
If his goal was that humans believe and worship him then it's his fault for not being more open and obvious.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Wrong. A single individual cannot decide whether evidence is reliable or not. You do not seem to understand this. You cannot afford to understand that. Reliable evidence is the same regardless of who observed it. Your "evidence" is on the same level as the " evidence " of Flat Earthers. And your weak attempt to shift the burden of proof shows that You know that you are wrong. It is not up to others to refute your prophet. The burden of proof is upon the believers.
We can show that the Earth is spherical, something you seem to understand. You cannot show your prophet is a messenger of god.
syo
Well-Known Member
God of stone, stonegod
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
In the spiritual world aka heaven with the Concourse of angels..
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God will not punish us if we do not find Him but it is to our benefit to bother searching for Him.
“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
There is no reason to think that God should be any more obvious, He is obvious enough to find if we are really looking.