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Questions...

Jos

Well-Known Member
Think for a moment what that is saying. If the devil can transform himself into "an angel of light", then who is going to see the darkness behind his activities? They will seem to be legitimate and beneficial.
Why would God allow him to have that power?
Only then can the Lord's prayer be fulfilled.....God's will can "be done on earth as it is in heaven" because all the nations ruled by satan will be eliminated. There will be just one government for the whole earth...and one people....God's people.

Can you think what good news that will be for suffering and divided humanity?
OK I understand
He gave the spiritual gifts to build the church that Jesus founded in the first century. Once that church was established back then, after the deaths of the apostles, there would be no more gifts because the apostles were the only ones who could pass them on. They were a demonstration on a small scale of what to expect once the Kingdom began to rule the earth
Why not allow to keep performing miracles especially given that it can persuade agnostics and atheists in the modern era?
Not so. God has planned the existence of very few individuals. We are the random generation of the union of two people. I
What about Jeremiah 1:5 or 1 Peter 2:9 or Ephesians 2:10?
If God was pre-ordaining the existence of individual people, then please explain how rape or incest can produce a child? Or produce a deformed or stillborn child.
I asked other Christians that and they said it was part of God's plan
So in keeping with Jewish understanding of the term, the whole person is consumed by this symbolic fire. In the Revelation, the lake of fire is called "the second death". This also pictures everlasting death. Nothing that goes into this "fire" ever comes out. The second death has no resurrection. And even "death and hades" end up in this lake....never to dog mankind ever again
Ok but what about people who have seen visions of hell and people burning or people who had near death experiences and went to hell?
I think its the other way around actually. It is because of adaptation that many diseases that were previously cured by antibiotics, are now coming back stronger and immune to the antibiotics because the drugs were over-prescribed and the bacteria have armed themselves for their preservation and become untreatable "superbugs". This is adaptation at work. It is a natural process designed to help living things survive in a changed environment. Because man is not as wise as he imagines himself to be, sometimes he gets it very wrong.
But evolution has been studied for over 150 years, they've been wrong this entire time? I find that hard to believe...
Also, how can gay people be at fault for being gay if they didn't choose to be gay?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Why would it be evident? What does believing in the Trinity have to do with how you treat others? Where have trinitarians supported war and conflict?
A religion would have to be obedient to God and His Son to have His blessing, wouldn't you think?

An organization having God's blessing, would not only be displaying the fruitages of His spirit, as outlined @ Galatians 5:22-23 (as best they could...everyone's imperfect); as a group, they would also be given accurate knowledge of His Word: that comes from Jehovah Himself. -- Luke 10:21

Do you think a religion joining a side in war, supporting the killing of other people, regardless of dogma, would bring God's blessing on them? Or His disfavor? I think you know the answer. (Matthew 7:23; question...how could they be doing "powerful works", if Jesus isn't with them?)


No matter how you slice it, mostly-trinitarian Christendom's reputation is atrocious....

Catholic historian E. I. Watkin acknowledged: “Painful as the admission must be, we cannot in the interest of a false edification or dishonest loyalty deny or ignore the historical fact that Bishops have consistently supported all wars waged by the government of their country. I do not know in fact of a single instance in which a national hierarchy has condemned as unjust any war . . . Whatever the official theory, in practice ‘my country always right’ has been the maxim followed in wartime by Catholic Bishops.”

*********


Protestant clergyman Harry Emerson Fosdick admitted: “Even in our churches we have put the battle flags . . . With one corner of our mouth we have praised the Prince of Peace and with the other we have glorified war.”

*********


Columnist Mike Royko of the Chicago Tribune wrote: "Nor have Christians ever been squeamish about waging wars on other Christians. If they had been, most of the liveliest wars in Europe would never have occurred.”

*********


Anne Fremantle wrote in the book Age of Faith: “Of all the wars men have waged, none have been more zealously undertaken than those on behalf of a faith. And of these ‘holy wars,’ none have been bloodier and more protracted than the Christian Crusades of the Middle Ages.”
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why would God allow him to have that power?

Because it is his. He was created as a powerful spirit creature. As was demonstrated with Job, though he doesn't have a free hand....he and his cronies have restrictions placed on what they are permitted to do now.

Paul wrote...."No temptation has come upon you except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it." (1 Cor 10:13)
This means that God knows our limitations and will not allow satan to take us beyond them.

God only allowed satan to test Job to that limit because he knew how much his faith could stand. It ended well for him.

In Noah's day the demons materialized and mated with human women to produce the "giants" (Nephilim) that were the source of all the immorality and violence that forced God to bring the flood.

Violence and immorality are still their stock in trade, but they just can't engage in it physically anymore.

Why not allow to keep performing miracles especially given that it can persuade agnostics and atheists in the modern era?

Its actually a sure fire way to tell the fakes. If only the fakes can do tricks, then it stands to reason why God said that "love" would identify his Christian worshippers (John 10:34-35).....satan doesn't do love very well.....he's more into hate.

Its not about the show or the displays of emotion....its about the truth.
I try to imagine Jesus and his disciples performing like a lot of charismatics do. :facepalm:
That is not the way Jesus taught us to worship the Father.


Yes, Jeremiah was one of those people chosen before birth....like John the Baptist, he was to carry out a special role.
The other two scriptures are about the foreordaining of the group who would make up the ranks of the heavenly kingdom....not the individuals who would make up the group.

I asked other Christians that and they said it was part of God's plan

Really? Then God is a fiend. If they believe that he tortures people forever in hell, then no wonder they could think that. :( God takes no delight in even the wicked suffering. (Matthew 5:45; Ezekiel 18:23)

Ok but what about people who have seen visions of hell and people burning or people who had near death experiences and went to hell?

NDE's are the product of an oxygen deprived brain. They are often in keeping with a person's religious beliefs, so unless God is the author of all those religions, then they are the product of individual brain chemistry gone awry. The fires of hell exist in false religions.
People who see visions (or delusions) these days are invariably suffering mental health issues or drug induced psychosis.

But evolution has been studied for over 150 years, they've been wrong this entire time? I find that hard to believe...

The devil had to wait for men to discover science before he could pull that one. Its only been around for 150 years, but boy, has it worked in his favor. Propaganda is a handy tool. Have you ever heard of perception management?

Also, how can gay people be at fault for being gay if they didn't choose to be gay?

No one said that gay people are at fault for being gay. No one can help their genetics. If you are familiar with the Bible's moral code, you will see where God draws the line. His laws states that immoral conduct cannot be tolerated. So what constitutes "immorality?

From the Bible's perspective, it is any "unlawful" sexual practice.....so what is unlawful? Simple....it is having sex with someone to whom you are not scripturally married. God's arrangement from the beginning was one man, one wife. No one was permitted to take what belonged to another man or woman because when they were married, God yoked them together in a binding, life-long arrangement. (Matthew 19:6) To become "one flesh" meant that their bodies were now the property of their mate. No one was allowed to break that bond. It went as far as Jesus saying 'don't even look lustfully at a woman who is not your wife'. (Matthew 5:28) This would of course, include pornography.

Immorality knows no gender. Regardless of whether its gay or straight, sex is for married people and the whole purpose of sex was to raise a family. Remember that it was the first thing God commanded Adam and his wife to do. Abstaining from sex is not life threatening, lots of people do it and live productive lives.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
In Noah's day the demons materialized and mated with human women to produce the "giants" (Nephilim) that were the source of all the immorality and violence that forced God to bring the flood.
On that note, how were Adam and Eve able to produce all those generations of kids through inbreeding even though inbreeding allows can only go on for a few generations?
That is not the way Jesus taught us to worship the Father.
Regarding miracles what do you think of John 14:12?
Have you ever heard of perception management?
No what's that?
Immorality knows no gender. Regardless of whether its gay or straight, sex is for married people and the whole purpose of sex was to raise a family. Remember that it was the first thing God commanded Adam and his wife to do. Abstaining from sex is not life threatening, lots of people do it and live productive lives.
So as long as they don't act out their desires, they're OK? Also, why would God want Adam and Eve to have kids and pass on original sin knowing that it could result in things like homosexuality?
 

9-18-1

Active Member
How do you understand it differently?

Primordial Triunity:
Shared Will
To Bestow
And Receive

Paternal Triunity:
Father
Mother
Child

The former is the basis of Christianity's Father/Son/Holy Spirit where the Holy Spirit is the feminine aspect of god.

The latter is the framework through which creation happens. When the will is not shared, this is destruction and manifests as men dominating women as we find in Islam.

So He creates for no reason?

Not "He"; Shared Will between Matriarchy and Patriarchy.

So God is a man and a woman?

Neither - both masculine and feminine united as 'one'. Adam and Eve are both man and woman which are made in the image and likeness - male and female.

So He needs to create before He can know what He wants?

One does not come before or after the other - they are co-mutual. Time is a human construct and is essentially a circle, just as every solar "year" is a circle 'in time'. One can not create anything unless there is a will. A will can not manifest unless there is creation within which it can manifest. This is the cosmos - the non-physical will aspect is related to "heavens" and they are one: as above, so below.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
The former is the basis of Christianity's Father/Son/Holy Spirit where the Holy Spirit is the feminine aspect of god.
I was taught that the Holy Spirit is a He.
One can not create anything unless there is a will. A will can not manifest unless there is creation within which it can manifest.
This sounds like a contradiction or maybe I'm just not getting it. This is a bit like asking which came the first: the chicken or the egg?
 

9-18-1

Active Member
I was taught that the Holy Spirit is a He.

Really? I really wish I understood the motivations of such teachings; for contained in the name YHVH the two possible manifestations of the spirit (H) (pure/impure) flank the vav. The word HVH itself refers to Havah; Eve. The Yud is the expression of the masculine/feminine as 'one' but the 'feminine' portion is filtered through/as HVH; hence YHVH. This can be read both ways: left-to-right often "Yahewh" and right-to-left often "Havayah". The word "Halleluyah" literally means 'praise Yah'.

As such the Holy Spirit expresses as/through HVH, which is the feminine aspect. How/why institutions teach the opposite is interesting. I can understand the argument that the Holy Spirit is both masculine and feminine (I partially agree with this) by virtue of the Y already containing both polarities before it can be expressed through two, but not that it is strictly masculine.

This sounds like a contradiction or maybe I'm just not getting it. This is a bit like asking which came the first: the chicken or the egg?

Indeed - the problem of the chicken and the egg is a contradictory problem in and of itself. It treats object [chicken] and [egg] as two separate things: a first one thus required to give to the next. However this is a fallacy: chicken and egg are 'one' thing. They are only different stages of this one 'thing'.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Yeah it kinda confuses me too how there's supposedly one God but everyone describes Him differently and even contradict others' description of Him. I'm more of an agnostic theist. I believe that some sort of higher power exists but I don't know who it is although it looks like Christians might have it right. I guess I believe because I find it hard not to believe that something is out there and because of the stories of personal experiences of God from believers.

What is easy to believe. Hmm. Of course much that turns out to be
so is counterintuitive. Simple example- heavy things fall faster, till
you test it.

But why is it easier to believe in
something even greater than all the
universe(s, infinite)?

Experiences. Listen to "Coast to coast".
People talk about experiences you know
good and well they did not have. People
lie, they make things up. Why? Hardly
matters.

People attribute to "god", or, spirits, experiences
that are not.

Example- a Mormon told me he had doubts.
He prayed, fervently he said, asking god if
LDS is all true. Kept it up for a week, in increasing
distress, because he so wanted this guidance.

What do you suppose happened?
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Really? I really wish I understood the motivations of such teachings; for contained in the name YHVH the two possible manifestations of the spirit (H) (pure/impure) flank the vav. The word HVH itself refers to Havah; Eve. The Yud is the expression of the masculine/feminine as 'one' but the 'feminine' portion is filtered through/as HVH; hence YHVH. This can be read both ways: left-to-right often "Yahewh" and right-to-left often "Havayah". The word "Halleluyah" literally means 'praise Yah'.
I think the motivation behind it is that God is seen as the ultimate authority over everything and since authority is normally associated with masculinity, they refer to all members of the Trinity using masculine pronouns. Although they'll also say that God has both masculine and feminine traits.
However this is a fallacy: chicken and egg are 'one' thing. They are only different stages of this one 'thing'.
As with creation and God's will? How are they the same thing in two differing stages?
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
But why is it easier to believe in
something even greater than all the
universe(s, infinite)
I guess we'd like to think that there's something greater than ourselves looking out for us and guiding us, a father figure in a sense who is greater than us and who'll make things right eventually for us, if we mess up, IDK... I'm rambling here lol.
Listen to "Coast to coast".
Is this a podcast?
People attribute to "god", or, spirits, experiences
that are not.
What would you attribute those experiences to?
What do you suppose happened?
He got his faith restored?
What is easy to believe. Hmm. Of course much that turns out to be
so is counterintuitive. Simple example- heavy things fall faster, till
you test it.
I know it can be counterintuitive but faith makes it seem all rational.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Why did God create anything at all if He existed by Himself in perfect relationship as a Holy Trinity having everything He would ever want or need?
In my opinion it is an interesting question to ask all theists. Why would any God have needs, like humans do?
 

syo

Well-Known Member
First question for people of a Christian persuasion:
Why did God create anything at all if He existed by Himself in perfect relationship as a Holy Trinity having everything He would ever want or need?
The holy trinity includes the creation :)
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I guess we'd like to think that there's something greater than ourselves looking out for us and guiding us, a father figure in a sense who is greater than us and who'll make things right eventually for us, if we mess up, IDK... I'm rambling here lol.

Is this a podcast?

What would you attribute those experiences to?

He got his faith restored?

I know it can be counterintuitive but faith makes it seem all rational.
Re coast to coast- giyf (google is your friend)

Re mormon. You are jumping ahead.
What do you think would be the specific event that
ended his intense week -long session of prayer?
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
I see suffering as an unavoidable side product when being alive. Nothing to do with Hell and Satan.

I agree to disagree on this one.
Love, Peace and Blessings to you

Nature doesn't have offer nothingness such as suffering and evil.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
On that note, how were Adam and Eve able to produce all those generations of kids through inbreeding even though inbreeding allows can only go on for a few generations?

This is how we understand the situation, based on what is recorded in scripture......Since the first humans were closer to their 'pre-fall' perfection, despite now being the 'carriers' of "sin" (an archery term that means to "miss the mark") they had no choice but to marry their own kin. If you understand that in the beginning it was only through "inbreeding" that the human race was going to increase anyway......and since there was no law against it, and the gene pool was not as 'polluted' as it would become later, God allowed his first command to the humans to go ahead......they were to "fill the earth"....and they did.

If you read elsewhere in Genesis, you will find that some of the Bible's most significant characters married their own family members. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all married close relatives.

But after God gave his law to Israel, (when he had gathered them as a nation in isolation in the wilderness, preparing to enter the Promised Land, and they had, by their own choice, agreed to abide by his laws) he added the law on incest along with many other moral laws. Perhaps by then, the gene pool had been 'polluted' enough to become a problem genetically, as we know it is now. But even a few centuries ago, when monarchies ruled some nations, inbreeding was a problem when "blue-bloods" felt that they were too 'royal' to mix with 'commoners' and so mental and physical disabilities resulted among them.

So before genetic problems arose, God put a stop to it.

Regarding miracles what do you think of John 14:12?

"Most truly I say to you, whoever exercises faith in me will also do the works that I do; and he will do works greater than these, because I am going my way to the Father."

Initially, Jesus was talking to his apostles who did exactly that.
When Gentiles began to be added, the disciples would take the good news way beyond the boundaries of Israel and into new territories and a new audience.

The apostle Paul indicated that the miracles that got Christianity established in the beginning would cease, and once the apostles died, the gifts died with them. They were not to be a permanent arrangement....otherwise there would be no need for doctors and hospitals because healers would be everywhere and the medical system would be unnecessary. Since the cures that occurred in the first century were instantaneous, it would simply be a matter of walking in sick and walking out cured......thousands of people could be cured every day. Faith healing these days doesn't work like that, does it? There are way more failures than successes. Not the result of holy spirit, but of an inferior deceptive spirit, according to our understanding.

The other point that needs understanding is that the gifts, like healing, were not performed on those who were already believers.

The apostles never used the power of the spirit on themselves or each other. Paul told Timothy to use a little wine for his stomach complaint. (1 Timothy 5:23) The miracles were designed to show 'unbelievers' what the benefits of the Kingdom would bring to mankind in the future.

No what's that?

"Perception management" is the ability to use suggestion to lead someone to believe something that may not be true.

It is used by advertising agencies to sell products by demonizing a competing product. A classic example of this would be the 'margarine verses butter' competition some decades ago. The only way to sell an inferior product is to convince people that it is dangerous in some way, get some "experts" to back up the claim, and then promote your own product as the better alternative. It doesn't matter if it's not true, or if it is detrimental to health, as long as they make money. It plays on people's gullibility and dependence on others to make decisions for them. As it turns out, butter was never the problem.

Another one would be the "low-fat" products that suggested that fat was the reason why so many people were overweight. But even though fat was not the real problem, people believed that if they ate "low-fat" products, they could eat more and lose weight. No one seemed to notice that they just got fatter because the real culprit was sugar and low-fat products were loaded with it. This mind set still persists in some people.

Politics is also known for this tactic. Demonize the opposition and promote yourself as the better alternative. Truth is always the casualty.

The devil invented this ploy...it works well for him.

So as long as they don't act out their desires, they're OK? Also, why would God want Adam and Eve to have kids and pass on original sin knowing that it could result in things like homosexuality?

No one can help the way their genetics are expressed....but they can control their actions. Pedophiles, for example are genetically pre-disposed to be sexually attracted to young children. Those who are not able to control their sexual impulses are arrested and put in jail. They need help, not just punishment.

Sexual addictions of any description are exacerbated by 'feeding' them. Whatever you feed, grows. Pedophilia today is more rampant than ever because pedophiles can feed on disgusting images that come directly into their homes via the internet. Other sorts of pornography too feed unnatural sexual desires and people can become bored with the natural sexual activity within a sanctioned marriage and begin to search for excitement outside of it.

All actions begin with thoughts. So unless we can control our thoughts, by reining them in before they become actions, it becomes a chain reaction. (James 1:14-15)

I was taught that the Holy Spirit is a He.

Just thought I'd address this point. In Greek, like French, there is masculine and feminine gender attached to things that have no gender.

The "paraclete" ("helper", holy spirit) in Greek is masculine. The holy spirit is not a "he" any more than God is a "he". Spirits do not have gender. The holy spirit is an impersonal force, not the third part of a trinity. It is God's power that is sent to carry out his will. It is given in due measure for whatever the situation requires.

Moses was buckling under the weight of his responsibility in leading his wayward nation in the wilderness. It was suggested that he appoint 70 others to help him carry out his assignment. God then took some of the holy spirit from Moses and shared it out among them all. (Numbers 11:13-17) God's spirit is not a person.

God portrays himself as a Father figure because in the family arrangement that he instituted, there is headship (not to be confused with dictatorship) and everyone has a head except God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Back to you. :)
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
What do you think would be the specific event that
ended his intense week -long session of prayer?
A prayer got answered or he received a personal experience of the Divine or he went to church to find answers...
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
If you understand that in the beginning it was only through "inbreeding" that the human race was going to increase anyway......and since there was no law against it, and the gene pool was not as 'polluted' as it would become later, God allowed his first command to the humans to go ahead......they were to "fill the earth"....and they did.
Why couldn't God just create new individual humans without a sin nature?
The apostle Paul indicated that the miracles that got Christianity established in the beginning would cease, and once the apostles died, the gifts died with them. They were not to be a permanent arrangement....
Where did he indicate this?
The apostles never used the power of the spirit on themselves or each other. Paul told Timothy to use a little wine for his stomach complaint. (1 Timothy 5:23) The miracles were designed to show 'unbelievers' what the benefits of the Kingdom would bring to mankind in the future.
So it's sinful for believers to heal themselves?
"Perception management" is the ability to use suggestion to lead someone to believe something that may not be true.
How exactly do proponents of evolution use this tactic? If evolution is true then they wouldn't need to use this tactic.
No one can help the way their genetics are expressed....but they can control their actions.
I get that but why command and Eve to have kids knowing it would lead to a perpetuation of original sin and all these negative effects on humans of later generations?
The holy spirit is an impersonal force, not the third part of a trinity.
Intresting but I was taught He was a personal masculine force... Isn't the Holy Spirit, God's spirit?
 
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