John 14:28

nPeace said:

Yes, thanks my brother. If it were my head I was banging against this wall, I would quit. However, these words are more than what they seem to be. The words may seem like they are deflecting, but take a closer look.

No brick wall can stand up to a 6 ton ball of steel. Something will give, and it's not the steel. This wall is going down, brother.

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Yeah, some day it will. We know what will do it....God’s Kingdom in the hands of Jesus, clearing out all opposition. 1 Corinthians 15:24-27.

Your reasoning may have a good effect on others reading your responses. Keep on ‘adorning the teachings of Jehovah’ and His Christ with mildness, my brother! Titus 2:10; Titus 3:2.

Agapé

Faithofchristian said:

Jesus wasn't all flesh and blood, inside the body of Jesus is God the Father.

God the Father made himself a body and in case himself inside of the body of Jesus.

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I would see these few passages would give other thoughts;

1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

John 5:37"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,"

Thus it is the spirit of Christ that is God in Jesus, likewise when we accept Jesus in Faith, that spirit lives in us.

Placing importance on flesh, in my opinion is why christianity has now missed 3 more of God's Messengers.

The Jews still await a Messiah and they also await a Flesh King.

Regards Tony

Faithofchristian said:

Jesus wasn't all flesh and blood, inside the body of Jesus is God the Father.

God the Father made himself a body and in case himself inside of the body of Jesus.

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Faithofchristian said:

God the Father is the Father of Jesus in the flesh.
But Jesus as God is greater than Jesus of flesh and blood.

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God encased himself in Jesus?
But Jesus as God is greater than Jesus of flesh and blood?


So Jesus was never a zygote? How tiny God must be. microscopic it seems.
Is Jesus a person? Was Jesus mad, or deceptive, when he raised his eyes heavenward, and prayed to his father?
When the voice came from heaven, it was really a rumbling coming from inside Jesus? So God reflected his voice to heaven and back? Isn't that deceptive?
You worship that God?

Where are these stories written? Not that I want to read them, but just curious what book your God wrote that contain these things. It sounds like a book of lies too.
It certainly is different from the Bible, as the Bible does not contain any such stories.

Am I hearing you correctly, or am I somehow misunderstanding what you are saying?

nPeace said:

That's all because? What do you mean? What's all because?
You haven't addressed the post. All you did was ignore it, and repeat words that you and some pastor speak - words not found or supported in scripture.

You see, facts don't become such, based on how often one repeats something that's not true.
Can you show anything to support claims you are making?
Then they are just claims - not facts.

Facts are things like this, things you can actually show, verify, and confirm. So please, rather than repeat what the facts show are lies, show something that says otherwise... if you can.
You can't, can you?

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I can,I can,I can and I did,and I did.

And by the way, how do you come by what I and some pastor speak. As to how that you go about accusing someone but don't know for sure.
Just so you know, I don't belong to any Religious organizations nor any church, so maybe next time before you go accusing someone get your facts straight first.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I would see these few passages would give other thoughts;

1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

John 5:37"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,"

Thus it is the spirit of Christ that is God in Jesus, likewise when we accept Jesus in Faith, that spirit lives in us.

Placing importance on flesh, in my opinion is why christianity has now missed 3 more of God's Messengers.

The Jews still await a Messiah and they also await a Flesh King.

Regards Tony

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John 14:5-9--"Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"

Therefore you have Jesus is God the Father.

Faithofchristian said:

I can,I can,I can and I did,and I did.

And by the way, how do you come by what I and some pastor speak. As to how that you go about accusing someone but don't know for sure.
Just so you know, I don't belong to any Religious organizations nor any church, so maybe next time before you go accusing someone get your facts straight first.

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I did not say you belong to any organization. Are you saying that no pastor says what you say, so you are alone in what you speak?

nPeace said:

God encased himself in Jesus?
But Jesus as God is greater than Jesus of flesh and blood?


So Jesus was never a zygote? How tiny God must be. microscopic it seems.
Is Jesus a person? Was Jesus mad, or deceptive, when he raised his eyes heavenward, and prayed to his father?
When the voice came from heaven, it was really a rumbling coming from inside Jesus? So God reflected his voice to heaven and back? Isn't that deceptive?
You worship that God?

Where are these stories written? Not that I want to read them, but just curious what book your God wrote that contain these things. It sounds like a book of lies too.
It certainly is different from the Bible, as the Bible does not contain any such stories.

Am I hearing you correctly, or am I somehow misunderstanding what you are saying?

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Well you just fulfilled scriptures and don't even know it.

1 Corinthians 2:14--"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

Faithofchristian said:

John 14:5-9--"Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"

Therefore you have Jesus is God the Father.

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What Phillip saw in Jesus was the Holy Spirit given of God, that is all we can know of God, we can not know the Essence of God.

Christ means 'Annointed' All Gods Mesengers are 'Annointed', thus are also Christ. This is how Christ is the First and the Last.

We find Christ in Baha'u'llah the same way we find it in Jesus.

Those who know Jesus Christ the Son can know Baha'u'llah the Father.

Regards Tony

Faithofchristian said:

Well you just fulfilled scriptures and don't even know it.

1 Corinthians 2:14--"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

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Another misapplication. Were you trying to surprise me? Sorry, I'm not surprised.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

What Phillip saw in Jesus was the Holy Spirit given of God, that is all we can know of God, we can not know the Essence of God.

Christ means 'Annointed' All Gods Mesengers are 'Annointed', thus are also Christ. This is how Christ is the First and the Last.

We find Christ in Baha'u'llah the same way we find it in Jesus.

Those who know Jesus Christ the Son can know Baha'u'llah the Father.

Regards Tony

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Nope not at all What Jesus revealed to Philip is when Philip look at Jesus Philip was seeing God the Father standing there right before him.

nPeace said:

We also must realize the difference between reasonable and unreasonable, because there are religious views that are reasonable - based on good reason and evidence, and religious views that are unreasonable - based on a position held to, despite all reason and evidence against it.
Some call that irrational faith.

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The bible, in words attributed to Jesus in direct speech, contains more than fifteen denials that Jesus is God.

It contains no statement by Jesus that he's God.

Paul says Jesus is not God.

The author of 1 Timothy says Jesus is not God.

To the Trinitarians of the the world, I say, Believe anything you want, since that's what living in a free country is all about. Ignore, if you will, that the doctrine is not only incoherent but acknowledged by the churches to be incoherent (ie to be 'a mystery in the strict sense').

But don't pretend the bible supports that view, since that's to embrace a manifest falsehood, and insults the ancient documents involved.

nPeace said:

This is perhaps the kind of faith some say must be unquestioned.

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For the thoughtful person, how can anything, faith included, be unquestionable? Outside of this sentence, there are no absolutes. To crave absolutes so much that one invents them is to demean oneself.

nPeace said:

However, Biblical faith can be questioned,
1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.

...but it depends on what you mean by question.

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Truth is conformity with reality. Reality is the world that exists external to the self, the sum of all things with objective existence, the realm of the physical sciences. Does what I believe conform with reality? If not, what instead is the truth?

nPeace said:

The Bible speaks of persons being persuaded, so obviously one who is persuaded of something, should be able to give a reasonable explanation when questioned. 2 Timothy 3:14, 15

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Ahm, 2 Timothy 3:14 doesn't quite say that. Instead it says, '... continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it'. If it had added, 'Keep re-examining it to satisfy yourself that it is expressed in meaningful terms and is true in the sense that it makes only accurate statements about reality,' then its author and I might be in agreement.

Hockeycowboy said:

Nice post!
Faith is supposed to be based on knowledge, but some people have been given false knowledge. Like with Hitler (an extreme example, I know): how many Germans in the ‘30s thought he was the greatest? Grief, were they wrong!!

Question everything! That’s good!
Really, isn’t that what we do here? Question people’s beliefs? It’s a hodgepodge, that’s for sure!

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The quest for what is true in reality is where scientific method, which maximizes objectivity, comes into its own.

InChrist said:

None of those verses disprove the deity of Christ. He, as God the Son chose to come to earth in human flesh, laid down His life and as God raise it up again.
Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:18

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In post # 29 I was showing verses showing that Jesus did Not resurrect himself, but that his God resurrected him.
I don't know of anyone claiming to be Christian that does Not think that Jesus is Not divine. (divine Not deity)
God sent the divine pre-human-heavenly Jesus to Earth for us. Jesus did Not send himself.
Jesus himself said he believes he is God's Son at John 10:36. In heaven and on earth Jesus was God's Son.
If Jesus was his own deity then Jesus could Not die, and Jesus would resurrect himself because of Not being dead.
So, to me God resurrecting Jesus means the divine-heavenly Jesus is Not his own God (deity)
Rather, Jesus had the power to choose to die of his own free-will choice or not, in fulfillment of Isaiah 53:9-10.
It was his God who loosed death for Jesus as per Acts of the Apostles 2:24 in fulfillment of Psalms 16:10.
Thus, Jesus changed places with 'us' (Not with his God) Jesus being made lower than angels as per Hebrews 2:9.
The resurrected heavenly Jesus now sits at the right hand of the throne of his God - Hebrews 12:2; Revelation 3:21.

blü 2 said:

The bible, in words attributed to Jesus in direct speech, contains more than fifteen denials that Jesus is God.

It contains no statement by Jesus that he's God.

Paul says Jesus is not God.

The author of 1 Timothy says Jesus is not God.

To the Trinitarians of the the world, I say, Believe anything you want, since that's what living in a free country is all about. Ignore, if you will, that the doctrine is not only incoherent but acknowledged by the churches to be incoherent (ie to be 'a mystery in the strict sense').

But don't pretend the bible supports that view, since that's to embrace a manifest falsehood, and insults the ancient documents involved.
For the thoughtful person, how can anything, faith included, be unquestionable? Outside of this sentence, there are no absolutes. To crave absolutes so much that one invents them is to demean oneself.

Truth is conformity with reality. Reality is the world that exists external to the self, the sum of all things with objective existence, the realm of the physical sciences. Does what I believe conform with reality? If not, what instead is the truth?

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Yes.

blü 2 said:

Ahm, 2 Timothy 3:14 doesn't quite say that. Instead it says, '... continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it'. If it had added, 'Keep re-examining it to satisfy yourself that it is expressed in meaningful terms and is true in the sense that it makes only accurate statements about reality,' then its author and I might be in agreement.

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2 Timothy 3 English: King James Version
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2 Timothy 3 NWT
14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them

How do you understand the terms "hast been assured of", and "were persuaded to believe"?

Faithofchristian said:

John 14:5-9--"Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"
Therefore you have Jesus is God the Father.

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Two peas in a pod, a chip off the old block, to me means knowing one as one knows one's father shows: closeness.
Closeness does Not make a father and a son as equals, but in a family it is the brothers who are the equals.
Since Jesus was doing his Father's will - John 5:17-19 - then they were equal in doing spiritual works.
In verse 19 to me that means that Jesus was Not acting on his own, but doing his Father's will.- John 10:36.

nPeace said:

So according to you, - Emphasis on according to you - Jesus is a shell that God made to dwell in.

Hence God let the shell be killed, left laughing. So nobody died, but just the shell. Then when God raised up the shell and seated it at his right hand, what then dwelt in the shell?



According to the Bible, Jesus is not a shell in which God dwells. He is the only begotten son, of the father.

The father sent him to earth for a purpose, and he came willingly. He was a messenger, both in the heavens, and on the earth.

Are you denying these facts?



Certainly, from what you are saying, not only do you seem to be denying them, but you are saying things found nowhere in the scriptures.

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Look, Jesus was God manifest; but God expressed fully in human form. That is body, soul and spirit. Jesus Himself claimed to have "proceeded forth and came from God".

We see that the holy Spirit proceeds forth from God. (John 15:26)
And we see that the Word of God proceeds forth from the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)

So it's obvious that Jesus proceeding forth from God; means He is God. And you deny that Jesus is in fact what the scriptures say He is: the Word of God. So you insist on listening to the Watchtower rather than the holy Spirit.

As for Jesus existing before birth. Yes, He was foreordained and predestined of God. This is why John says the "Word" was made flesh. The Word is God manifest in the flesh. And you ignore the scripture that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever which contradicts "Michael is Jesus" theology.

Jesus the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world. There never was a time when He was not already what He is.

nPeace said:

The prophecy in Isaiah is about whom? Is it not a prophecy about the son of God? So why are you applying the prophecy to God?

Jesus Christ is Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. So what are you saying, he can't be?

He is not the mighty God. He has become the everlasting father of those redeemed by his blood. He is the prince of peace that will bring all things back to God, his father, after which... you ready for this?

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Are you afraid to consider my point of view? The prophecy is clearly about the Son but we see language used only for God. The implication is that Jesus is God.

And now you admit you have two Fathers. God the Father and the separate Jesus the Father. So that contradicts more than one scripture. 1 Corinthians 8:6 being an obvious example.

Already you JWs claim there are two gods (by your interpretation of John 1:1) and now two fathers also by your interpretation of Isaiah 9:6. Always two of everything because you cannot afford to admit the truth that Jesus is who He claims to be: God.

nPeace said:

(1 Corinthians 15:24-28) 24 ...he [Christ] hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

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You're acting uneducated but I've told you the truth before.You can read that again. On the nature and mission of the Lord Jesus.

Jesus the Son of man sits on the right hand of the Father in glorified human form until all His enemies are put under His human feet. This will ensure victory for all those who believe in Him. That is why He must subject all things to Himself in human form. It's for our sake. Because He took on our enemies and made them His own enemies; so that He could defeat them for us! Then when His mission is accomplished He will deliver the kingdom up to God; restored and complete. And Jesus Himself will be the head of the body and His body will be all those who trusted in Him. And they will all come together with Jesus their head unto God. (Daniel 7:13-14) Then everything will rest in the eternal sabbath day because all things will be reconciled unto God again ... So Jesus is the Savior.

nPeace said:

Which book are you basing you doctrines on.

The Bible says one thing. You say another.

What did Jesus say?

Concerning his father, he quotes Isaiah's words...

(Matthew 15:6-11) 6 So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” 10 With that he called the crowd near and said to them: “Listen and get the sense of it: 11 It is not what enters into a man’s mouth that defiles him, but it is what comes out of his mouth that defiles him.”



Do you and your partners get the sense of those words? Do you realize how serious it is to make the word of God invalid in the eyes of onlookers?

By teaching false doctrines, you stumble onlookers, preventing people from entering the Kingdom of God. Under normal circumstances, they may want to enter, but the confusing doctrines hinder them.

Not only them, but those who are mislead by such teachings. Matthew 23:15



This is no joke guys. Some people really think God is mock. Seriously?

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You are quite passionate about what you believe. And I respect that even if it comes across as judgmental. But, the watchtower is wrong and you've unfortunately bought into their man made doctrine. Sorry. It is the watchtower that has made the Word of God of none effect through their human reasoning and doctrine. The JWS are the "Christian" denomination that requires their own Bible just to believe the things they believe. Other denominations are happy to share the same Bible versions. You JWs must use your New Worldly wisdom Translation or else your doctrines don't stand much of a chance ... Speaking of making the Word of God of none effect!

URAVIP2ME said:

Two peas in a pod, a chip off the old block, to me means knowing one as one knows one's father shows: closeness.
Closeness does Not make a father and a son as equals, but in a family it is the brothers who are the equals.
Since Jesus was doing his Father's will - John 5:17-19 - then they were equal in doing spiritual works.
In verse 19 to me that means that Jesus was Not acting on his own, but doing his Father's will.- John 10:36.

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Why can't you just accept the scripture as it is "have I been so long with you and yet you do not know me Philip?"

Faithofchristian said:

Nope not at all What Jesus revealed to Philip is when Philip look at Jesus Philip was seeing God the Father standing there right before him.

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Personally I would think that Phillip would have seen Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Krishna, Jesus the Christ, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah.

All the Holy Books talk of this day, the Day the Father Himself comes. Thus I see if we reject Baha'u'llah the Father, we reject Christ for all eternity and in reality, we have never known Christ.

Of course that is in my opinion based on Baha'i Writings.

Regards Tony

blü 2 said:

The quest for what is true in reality is where scientific method, which maximizes objectivity, comes into its own.

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I was not aware that the scientific method can be used to reach truth or reality concerning historical events. Can it? How are those events tested and observed?

nPeace said:

God encased himself in Jesus?
But Jesus as God is greater than Jesus of flesh and blood?


So Jesus was never a zygote? How tiny God must be. microscopic it seems.
Is Jesus a person? Was Jesus mad, or deceptive, when he raised his eyes heavenward, and prayed to his father?
When the voice came from heaven, it was really a rumbling coming from inside Jesus? So God reflected his voice to heaven and back? Isn't that deceptive?
You worship that God?

Where are these stories written? Not that I want to read them, but just curious what book your God wrote that contain these things. It sounds like a book of lies too.
It certainly is different from the Bible, as the Bible does not contain any such stories.

Am I hearing you correctly, or am I somehow misunderstanding what you are saying?

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You're limiting God and misunderstanding His greatness.

So you should know that God is omnipresent. That is not really to mean that God is everywhere, but that everywhere is present to God. Even though God's throne is heaven. Yet we know God says He fills both heaven and earth. (Jeremiah 23:24)

And God does send out His Spirit. The Spirit moves on things such as in Genesis 1 when the Spirit is fluttering over the water. Now, can you see how God is in Christ and yet in heaven on His throne as He always will be?

Jesus claimed to have proceeded forth and come from God. So you should understand Christ's nature.