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Comparing Catholic Beliefs with the Teachings of Jesus in Scripture

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Deeje, you're mistaken...

Sorry, I missed this.

NOBODY kneels to statues or crosses.

You don't seem to understand that images of anything were forbidden in God's law. They should not even be there. What part of "do not make images" does the Catholic church not understand?

If you look closer at those propoganda pictures, it is what is inside the monstrace that they're kneeling and prostrating before. Also, many non-Catholics don't realize this, but in every church and chapel, you will see a lit candle that shows which direction the tabernacle is, which is a locked up box that contains the Body of Christ. Here is the tabernacle:

OK....lets talk about the Monstrance.

images
images
images


Where will I find a monstrance used in Christian worship ever mentioned in the Bible? This too is idolatry.

Did you never wonder why the monstrance is in the shape of the sun? Or why the wafer is round?

images


If you read the Bible accounts, the bread offered at the last Passover, was broken by Jesus and handed to all of his disciples. It would have been no particular shape. So why is the Monstrance and the wafer the same shape as the sun?.....It was a leftover from pagan Roman sun worship. Just like the obelisk in the middle of the Babylonian sun wheel in St Peter's "Square". The obelisk was transported from Egypt where it was honored as a symbol of Ra, the Egyptian sun god. There right in the center of supposedly "Christian" worship are the pagan symbols of sun worship...larger than life.

The Romans felt right at home with Catholicism......especially when it became very familiarly, "Roman".

Constantine was an astute politician. It was said that for every Christian church he built, he also built a temple for Zeus. He was a worshipper of Zeus all his life, pretending to favor Christianity when all he really wanted to do was to consolidate his religiously divided empire. He did not Christianize the paganism, but he successfully paganized the Christianity.

The idea of transubstantiation is actually repulsive to anyone who has knowledge of the scriptures. If the bread and wine were turned into the literal flesh and blood of Jesus, then anyone partaking would be breaking God's law. Consuming human flesh and drinking human blood are not something sacred, but offensive, even as the ones hearing Jesus speak of it, walked away in disgust, not discerning the spiritual nature of what he was saying. The apostles were shocked too, and Jesus asked if they were going to walk away as well......Peter asked where they would go to, since Jesus was the son of God, who had the sayings of everlasting life....there was nowhere else to go....(John 6:48-69) In verse 63 Jesus indicated that his sayings were "spirit and life".....certainly not to be taken literally.

Look closer, at your own pictures, and you will likely see one of the following things that they kneeling or bowing before -which contains, at it's center, Christ Jesus' Body:

Where will I find anything like this in first century Christianity?

31824_a6acbecada38fd817ed9db75f1a4b80f.jpg


Where will I find images and sun symbols in the Christian worship practiced in apostolic times?

Where will I find relic worship and the adoration of Mary as if she was somehow more important than Jesus? There is no special mention of Mary except as the highly favored Mother of Jesus? We don't know when Mary died, but if you believe the Catholic church, she was taken up to heaven without dying. Where does it say any of this in scripture?

When Jesus first instituted the New Covenant with his apostles on the night before he died, there was no pomp or ceremony...it was a simple Passover meal with roasted lamb, bitter greens and bread and wine.

As he broke the bread and shared it, and he drank the wine and shared that, he asked that his disciples keep doing this "to proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes". The Passover was replaced by this memorial celebration and it was held annually. Anniversaries are also held annually. Jesus is the Passover Lamb but the Passover was not held weekly...it was held on the specific date on which it fell.

Have you done any research on Easter yet? Did you ever wonder why it always falls on a Friday? What anniversary that you celebrate always falls on the same day of the week each year?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What are my thoughts? I think of Samuel, who I believe is a Saint in the eyes of the Lord, and I read and believe what the prophet Sirach wrote concerning Samuel. Sirach 46: 20; "Moreover after he died he was inquired of. He declared unto the King his way and he lifted his voice from the earth to blot out iniquity by prophecy."

Two things....

1) Samuel is a dead prophet, a righteous man no doubt, but he is not a saint in the same way that Jesus' apostles are. Only after Jesus died was the way open for those taken into the new covenant to join him in heaven. He said he was going away to prepare a place for them and that he would return to take them "home" to be with him. No one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13) No one was to be resurrected before Christ's return.

No pre-Christian servant of God was taken into the new covenant because it was for a Kingdom....it meant a place in a heavenly government with Jesus as King and his assistants acting as co-rulers and priests for obedient mankind.

This kingdom was prophesied by Daniel who described the events of "the time of the end". The "Kingdom" that he foretold was going to "crush" all existing rulerships out of existence and replace them as earth's only ruling government, (Daniel 2:44) made up of the "chosen ones"...the "saints". (Revelation 20:6)
Only these will go to heaven.

Whatever God has in store for the righteous dead whom he will use Jesus to resurrect, remains to be seen. (John 5:28-29) But they will be brought back to this life and will no doubt contribute greatly in the earthly courtyards of the heavenly Kingdom.

2) I do not accept apocryphal writings as scripture.

The dead are dead and will remain so until the Kingdom rules this earth. Samuel was not raised by the voice of a spirit medium because God forbade such activity as detestable to him. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) If the living prophets would not speak with Saul, why would a faithful dead one? Samuel still sleeps.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Two things....

1) Samuel is a dead prophet, a righteous man no doubt, but he is not a saint in the same way that Jesus' apostles are. Only after Jesus died was the way open for those taken into the new covenant to join him in heaven. He said he was going away to prepare a place for them and that he would return to take them "home" to be with him. No one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13) No one was to be resurrected before Christ's return.

No pre-Christian servant of God was taken into the new covenant because it was for a Kingdom....it meant a place in a heavenly government with Jesus as King and his assistants acting as co-rulers and priests for obedient mankind.

This kingdom was prophesied by Daniel who described the events of "the time of the end". The "Kingdom" that he foretold was going to "crush" all existing rulerships out of existence and replace them as earth's only ruling government, (Daniel 2:44) made up of the "chosen ones"...the "saints". (Revelation 20:6)
Only these will go to heaven.

Whatever God has in store for the righteous dead whom he will use Jesus to resurrect, remains to be seen. (John 5:28-29) But they will be brought back to this life and will no doubt contribute greatly in the earthly courtyards of the heavenly Kingdom.

2) I do not accept apocryphal writings as scripture.

The dead are dead and will remain so until the Kingdom rules this earth. Samuel was not raised by the voice of a spirit medium because God forbade such activity as detestable to him. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) If the living prophets would not speak with Saul, why would a faithful dead one? Samuel still sleeps.

Deeje wrote...… The dead are dead and will remain so until the Kingdom rules this earth.

The Anointed...…….. So you think that the satirical writing of Solomon, where he said; "The living know they will die, but the dead know nothing, were actually the words of the Lord and not the Satrical work of Solomon.

The prophet Sirach wrote of Solomon; "By the Songs, Parables, Dark speeches and Satires, thou did astound the people. Solomon wrote four works, His Songs are found in the book Song of Songs, his Parables in the book of Proverbs, his Dark Speeches in The Wisdom of Solomon, now where do you think we would find his book of Satires?


Deeje wrote...….. Samuel was not raised by the voice of a spirit medium because God forbade such activity as detestable to him. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) If the living prophets would not speak with Saul, why would a faithful dead one?

The Anointed...…. God may have forbade such activity and saw it as being detestable, but God did not say that it was impossible to disturb the rest of the righteous dead, and we know from the prophets that it was possible. Even if the JW cult say that it was a demon that the medium brought up.

Deele wrote........ Samuel still sleeps.

The Anointed...… Are you so sure of that? Matthew 17: 51-53; At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 the tombs broke open and many bodies of the Saints who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs (Three days later) after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

If as you say, Samuel is still asleep in death, then perhaps you can name those Saints whose graves were opened, among whom you say Samuel is not counted, and who three days later came out of their graves and showed themselves to many.

And perhaps you can also name the spirits in hades to whom Jesus, while dead in flesh, but alive in spirit, preached the Good News too, but they were possibly the same who came out of their graves, weren't they?

 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
They do not materialize now, but they did back in Noah's day.

If you think about this, it reveals how unrestrictive Jehovah is toward His intelligent creatures....He allows them a lot of leeway, in abilities and in making decisions.

Thank goodness He put a stop to that ability!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If you think about this, it reveals how unrestrictive Jehovah is toward His intelligent creatures....He allows them a lot of leeway, in abilities and in making decisions.

Thank goodness He put a stop to that ability!

Yes, not to mention the trust he places in them when he assigns them responsibilities. Satan was a covering cherub in Eden, but allowed his own ambitions to cause him to abuse that trust.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Two things....

1) Samuel is a dead prophet, a righteous man no doubt, but he is not a saint in the same way that Jesus' apostles are. Only after Jesus died was the way open for those taken into the new covenant to join him in heaven. He said he was going away to prepare a place for them and that he would return to take them "home" to be with him. No one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13) No one was to be resurrected before Christ's return.

No pre-Christian servant of God was taken into the new covenant because it was for a Kingdom....it meant a place in a heavenly government with Jesus as King and his assistants acting as co-rulers and priests for obedient mankind.

This kingdom was prophesied by Daniel who described the events of "the time of the end". The "Kingdom" that he foretold was going to "crush" all existing rulerships out of existence and replace them as earth's only ruling government, (Daniel 2:44) made up of the "chosen ones"...the "saints". (Revelation 20:6)
Only these will go to heaven.

Whatever God has in store for the righteous dead whom he will use Jesus to resurrect, remains to be seen. (John 5:28-29) But they will be brought back to this life and will no doubt contribute greatly in the earthly courtyards of the heavenly Kingdom.

2) I do not accept apocryphal writings as scripture.

The dead are dead and will remain so until the Kingdom rules this earth. Samuel was not raised by the voice of a spirit medium because God forbade such activity as detestable to him. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) If the living prophets would not speak with Saul, why would a faithful dead one? Samuel still sleeps.

Deeje wrote...…. 2) I do not accept apocryphal writings as scripture.

The Anointed...…. Genesis 11: 12; "When Arpachshad was 35 he had a son, 'Shelah.' 1 st Chronicles 1: 18; "Arpachshad was the father of Shelah. These are the only two times in the OT canon of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, which your mother church allows you to use, where the father of Shelah is mentioned.

How faithful you are to the canon of limited scriptures that the Roman church of Emperor Constantine has allowed you to study.

Luke 3: 35-36; states that Kainam/Cainam is the father of Shelah, do you accuse Luke of lying? The Prophet Sirach says that Ezekiel describes in what forms the cherubs are depicted. Do you know where in Ezekiel he does this? would you like me to go on?

 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
NOBODY kneels to statues or crosses. If you look closer at those propoganda pictures, it is what is inside the monstrace that they're kneeling and prostrating before. Also, many non-Catholics don't realize this, but in every church and chapel, you will see a lit candle that shows which direction the tabernacle is, which is a locked up box that contains the Body of Christ. Here is the tabernacle:

There is no "Body of Christ" in that box. The unleavened bread symbolizes the bread of life without the leaven/hypocrisy of the Pharisees. The "good seed", the wheat seed, represents the "word of the kingdom", (Matthew 13:19). We are talking symbolism, such as done in parables, and not real flesh and blood. The "blood" represents the Spirit of God, in as you need both the "Word", the "Law and the prophets" plus the Spirit of God, which is symbolized by the blood.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Where will I find a monstrance used in Christian worship ever mentioned in the Bible? This too is idolatry.

Your "monstrance" would be the image of the crown of the sun god, Sol Invictus, who was the "dragon" who gave his authority to the "beast" (Revelation 13:4).
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
and went to a parochial school

I don't know the time frame you are referring to, but I would not allow my children to attend a parochial school. As a matter of fact for children preparing for the sacraments of initiation it was mandatory that student of parochial schools attend the diocesan instruction in their local parish.

The last time I went to that church, for a funeral, they had removed the statues. I think the hypocrisy might have been getting to them, but on second thought, it was a rich church, and they redid the whole church in a more modern motif, and who knows what they did with the statues.

They removed many statues because of the rampant Marian piety and Vat II's asserting Mary's proper place in the Church.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I don't know the time frame you are referring to, but I would not allow my children to attend a parochial school. As a matter of fact for children preparing for the sacraments of initiation it was mandatory that student of parochial schools attend the diocesan instruction in their local parish.

Try the 1950s. 95% of instruction was done by the nuns in the classrooms. The nuns were good educational instructors. I never bought into the religious aspect. When I went to a public school, the students were a mix of Protestants, and they were just as indoctrinated as anyone from a parochial school, just in different ways. The difference between the Protestants and the Catholics is only on the surface. Like mother, like daughter. At that time, the Catholics were still in the role of Luther's, the "whore of Babylon". Actually, the Roman Church is simply a leading daughter of Babylon. (Revelation 17:5) Her sister/daughters, the Protestant share much the same false core beliefs. According to Ezekiel 34, the shepherds, and the sheep will all be judged, and "one shepherd", "David", will be placed over all the sheep. The "fat" and the "strong", "I will destroy", "I will feed them with judgment" (Ezekiel 34:16). You might want to consider joining Weight Watchers.
Roughly two-thirds of adults, nearly 30% of children are overweight or obese
The vast majority of American adults are overweight or obese, and weight is a growing problem among US children
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
in as you need both the "Word", the "Law and the prophets" plus the Spirit of God, which is symbolized by the blood.

According to the account of the 'transfiguration' Jesus is the embodiment of the 'Law and the Prophets

There is no "Body of Christ" in that box. The unleavened bread symbolizes the bread of life without the leaven/hypocrisy of the Pharisees. The "good seed", the wheat seed, represents the "word of the kingdom", (Matthew 13:19). We are talking symbolism, such as done in parables, and not real flesh and blood. The "blood" represents the Spirit of God, in as you need both the "Word", the "Law and the prophets" plus the Spirit of God, which is symbolized by the blood.

The host in the monstrance has been consecrated, and in faith it is the Body of Christ. Spending time in prolonged silence before the Eucharist "is one of the most authentic experiences of our being church," and it finds its complement at Mass when Catholics "celebrate the Eucharist, listening to the word of God, singing, approaching together the table of the bread of life."
Catholic faith recognizes Jesus truly present in the Eucharist and worthy of adoration.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
According to the account of the 'transfiguration' Jesus is the embodiment of the 'Law and the Prophets

The host in the monstrance has been consecrated, and in faith it is the Body of Christ. Spending time in prolonged silence before the Eucharist "is one of the most authentic experiences of our being church," and it finds its complement at Mass when Catholics "celebrate the Eucharist, listening to the word of God, singing, approaching together the table of the bread of life."
Catholic faith recognizes Jesus truly present in the Eucharist and worthy of adoration.

I hate to be the bringer of bad tidings, but the "Eucharist" doesn't "see nor hear nor walk" (Revelation 9:20). Adoring water mixed with flour in the shape of the sun doesn't make for wise time management. According to Matthew 5:17, Yeshua came to "fulfill" the "Law" and the "prophets", and according to Revelation 19:13-15, he has much yet to fulfill. As for Catholics listening to the "word of God", most of it is the word/leaven of the Pharisee Paul.
Catholics apparently come under the spell of their churches, just as Protestants often come under the spell of their pastors. Sometimes it is better to snap out of a spell, and avoid the coming train wreck.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Sometimes it is better to snap out of a spell, and avoid the coming train wreck.

Most people who give up their belief system know the reasons they have done so to be true and move on in peace. You my friend express nothing but anger and resentment belonging to the past and are unable to 'move on' without the 'train wreck'.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Most people who give up their belief system know the reasons they have done so to be true and move on in peace. You my friend express nothing but anger and resentment belonging to the past and are unable to 'move on' without the 'train wreck'.

I never had a belief system. We moved to the Protestant countryside when I was in 3rd grade. My contact with the 10% tithes sermons of the Catholic Church was quite short, and based on doing what your parents say. I didn't have contact with the real "Word of God", until I was 23 years old, and a Protestant friend gave me a bible. The family Catholic bible was only for writing down birth and marriage dates. As for anger, I think not, I enjoy playing with you guys. Most of you guys apparently even haven't read the bible, or in the case of the Protestants, so indoctrinated, it makes no difference. There are a select few, written in the book of life (Revelation 13:8), who haven't worshipped the beast, and the dragon, and can perceive the light from the darkness, but the "many" are drawn to the darkness, and will worship the "another beast" and his "false prophet". (Revelation 13:11). That is life and death. Now that we are at the "end of the age", the "tares" are no longer protected, and I can pull them up as I please (Matthew 13:27-30). As for the "stumbling blocks" (Matthew 13:41), they are fare game. The first "stumbling block to me" (Matthew 16:23), is Peter, and subsequently, his successor, the pope. (Isaiah 22:25) Both their days as the "first" in the chow line, will soon turn to be the "last" (Matthew 19:27-30) & (Ezekiel 34:16). As for the "train wreck", the "wrath to come" (Matthew 3:7), she is a coming.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The Anointed...…….. So you think that the satirical writing of Solomon, where he said; "The living know they will die, but the dead know nothing, were actually the words of the Lord and not the Satrical work of Solomon.

Since Solomon was gifted with Godly wisdom, his satires were a commentary on the futility of this life. And because the "sacred mystery" of the kingdom was yet to be clarified only after the outpouring of holy spirit received by Jesus' disciples at Pentecost, his words still convey the same meaning that many today lament. What is the point of this life, full of vanity and suffering? We have a full understanding now, as Daniel foretold we would have, in this "time of the end". (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)

The prophet Sirach wrote of Solomon; "By the Songs, Parables, Dark speeches and Satires, thou did astound the people. Solomon wrote four works, His Songs are found in the book Song of Songs, his Parables in the book of Proverbs, his Dark Speeches in The Wisdom of Solomon, now where do you think we would find his book of Satires?

Do you believe that God's word is his....or man's?
If it is God's word, then he controls what is included in it. If it is man's word, then God is deliberately misleading the whole world....yet, God said that satan is the greatest deceiver in this world. (1 John 5:19) We choose who to believe.....but, do people know when they are deceived? The master deceiver has had a very long time to perfect his craft.

The Anointed...…. God may have forbade such activity and saw it as being detestable, but God did not say that it was impossible to disturb the rest of the righteous dead, and we know from the prophets that it was possible. Even if the JW cult say that it was a demon that the medium brought up.

It was a demon impersonating Samuel. The prophet was dead, and Saul had lost God's favor. If his living prophets refused to speak to Saul, why would a dead prophet speak to a man, using a forbidden means of communication, to tell him anything? Use your reasoning skills. Let the Bible itself explain.

The Anointed...… Are you so sure of that? Matthew 17: 51-53; At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 the tombs broke open and many bodies of the Saints who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs (Three days later) after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

This passage has lost something in the translation. The Bible does not contradict itself. The earthquake was a strong one and it is not at all unusual for graves to be upturned and the bodies of the dead exposed. A reading of that vague passage can also be understood to indicate that it was the people who observed the exposed bodies who went into the city to report it.

If as you say, Samuel is still asleep in death, then perhaps you can name those Saints whose graves were opened, among whom you say Samuel is not counted, and who three days later came out of their graves and showed themselves to many.

As I have mentioned, "holy ones" are spoken about in the OT part of the Bible, but they are not part of those with "the heavenly calling". Only those taken into the new covenant, instituted by Jesus just before his death, are those he promised to be "saints" (holy ones) in a special capacity to become 'kings and priests' and rule with Christ in his Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) No pre-Christian servant of God had that expectation....not even the apostles, at first.

Now, if the bodies of those saints were in fact resurrected, where are they? Where is there any mention of them after that brief account, and only in one of the gospels, by Matthew? Surely it would have been a big deal? No other mention is made of it. Or what these "saints" did or where they went.

The resurrection of the saints is said to be to immortal life in heaven. These "saints" were supposedly flesh and blood, walking about. That does not fit the Bible's scenario at all. It is clearly a misinterpretation.

And perhaps you can also name the spirits in hades to whom Jesus, while dead in flesh, but alive in spirit, preached the Good News too, but they were possibly the same who came out of their graves, weren't they?

This is also misinterpreted. Jesus was dead in his tomb for all three days. He did not go anywhere during that time, any more than Jonah went anywhere whilst confined to the belly of the sea creature who swallowed him. Jesus said that he would be in the heart of the earth just like Jonah was in the belly of the fish. (Matthew 12:38-40)
The Bible says that in the spirit, he "made a proclaimation to the spirits in prison"...what spirits are these?

I'll let Peter explain.....

"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water." (1 Peter 3:18-20 - NRSV)

You can see if you read this scripture, that people assume that Jesus was resurrected before the three days he said he would be in the tomb....but he was dead all that time. So when he was resurrected, he did go to deliver a judgment message to the wicked spirits who were disobedient in Noah's day. It was not the spirits of former humans. There are no such things as spirits of the dead.

What prison are these spirits occupying?

"And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great day." (Jude 1:6 - NRSV)


"For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment; and if he did not spare the ancient world, even though he saved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood on a world of the ungodly; and if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example of what is coming to the ungodly". (2 Peter 2:4-6 NRSV)

The "spirits" were rebel angels who materialized in Noah's day and caused the world of that time to be plunged into an extreme level of violence and immorality. God put a stop to it by eliminating that world and its wicked inhabitants, and forcing those wicked angels back to the spirit realm where he placed them under restraint. Not in "hell" as this erroneous translation indicates but in what is called "Tartarus". It is a condition, more than an actual prison. They were no longer able to take on human flesh.....a restriction, but not something that makes it impossible for them to cause trouble, which they continue to do.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Your "monstrance" would be the image of the crown of the sun god, Sol Invictus, who was the "dragon" who gave his authority to the "beast" (Revelation 13:4).

The Monstrance is indeed a symbol of the Sol Invictus, but as for this god being the "dragon" of Revelation 13:4 which says.....

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? "

You have to have context to interpret this verse. Please consider the following.....

First of all...who are "they"? "They" are the people who have been deluded into accepting the lies that the dragon has been telling all along. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

"In the vision had by the apostle John and recorded at Revelation 13, a seven-headed, ten-horned wild beast comes up out of the sea, leopardlike, yet with feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion. It is thus a composite form of several of the symbols appearing in Daniel’s vision of the four beasts. The dragon, identified at Revelation 12:9 as Satan the Devil, gives the beast its authority and power. (Revelation 13:1, 2) This beast’s seven heads (bearing ten horns) distinguish it from the one-headed beasts of Daniel’s vision. Seven (and ten) are commonly acknowledged as Biblical symbols of completeness. This is corroborated by the extent of this beast’s domain, for it exercises authority, not over one nation or a group of nations, but “over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.” (Revelation 13:7, 8; compare Revelation16:13, 14.)

Noting these factors, The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible comments: “The first of these beasts [of Revelation 13] combines in itself the joint characteristics of the four beasts of Daniel’s vision . . . Accordingly, this first beast represents the combined forces of all political rule opposed to God in the world.”—Edited by G. Buttrick, 1962, Vol. 1, p. 369.

Two-horned beast. Then John saw a beast out of the earth with two horns like those of a harmless lamb, yet speaking as a dragon, exercising the full authority of the first wild beast, just described. It directs making an image of the globally ruling seven-headed beast, putting all persons under compulsion to accept its “mark.”—Revelation 13:11-17."

As for "The scarlet-colored wild beast. At Revelation 17 the apostle records his vision of a scarlet-colored beast with seven heads and ten horns, mounted by the symbolic woman “Babylon the Great.” This beast thus resembles, or is in the image of, the first beast of Revelation 13 but is distinct because of its scarlet color and the fact that no crowns are seen on its ten horns. Beholding the beast, John is told that five of the seven kings represented by the seven heads had already fallen, while one existed at that time, and the seventh was yet to come. The scarlet-colored beast itself is an eighth king but springs from or is a product of the previous seven. The “ten kings” represented by the ten horns exist and exercise authority in association with the scarlet beast for a short time. Warring against the Lamb, Jesus Christ, and those with him, they go down in defeat.—Re 17:3-5, 9-14."

Excerpts from Beasts, Symbolic — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is what we believe.....
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The Monstrance is indeed a symbol of the Sol Invictus, but as for this god being the "dragon" of Revelation 13:4 which says.....

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? "

You have to have context to interpret this verse. Please consider the following.....

First of all...who are "they"? "They" are the people who have been deluded into accepting the lies that the dragon has been telling all along. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

"In the vision had by the apostle John and recorded at Revelation 13, a seven-headed, ten-horned wild beast comes up out of the sea, leopardlike, yet with feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion. It is thus a composite form of several of the symbols appearing in Daniel’s vision of the four beasts. The dragon, identified at Revelation 12:9 as Satan the Devil, gives the beast its authority and power. (Revelation 13:1, 2) This beast’s seven heads (bearing ten horns) distinguish it from the one-headed beasts of Daniel’s vision. Seven (and ten) are commonly acknowledged as Biblical symbols of completeness. This is corroborated by the extent of this beast’s domain, for it exercises authority, not over one nation or a group of nations, but “over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.” (Revelation 13:7, 8; compare Revelation16:13, 14.)

Noting these factors, The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible comments: “The first of these beasts [of Revelation 13] combines in itself the joint characteristics of the four beasts of Daniel’s vision . . . Accordingly, this first beast represents the combined forces of all political rule opposed to God in the world.”—Edited by G. Buttrick, 1962, Vol. 1, p. 369.

Two-horned beast. Then John saw a beast out of the earth with two horns like those of a harmless lamb, yet speaking as a dragon, exercising the full authority of the first wild beast, just described. It directs making an image of the globally ruling seven-headed beast, putting all persons under compulsion to accept its “mark.”—Revelation 13:11-17."

As for "The scarlet-colored wild beast. At Revelation 17 the apostle records his vision of a scarlet-colored beast with seven heads and ten horns, mounted by the symbolic woman “Babylon the Great.” This beast thus resembles, or is in the image of, the first beast of Revelation 13 but is distinct because of its scarlet color and the fact that no crowns are seen on its ten horns. Beholding the beast, John is told that five of the seven kings represented by the seven heads had already fallen, while one existed at that time, and the seventh was yet to come. The scarlet-colored beast itself is an eighth king but springs from or is a product of the previous seven. The “ten kings” represented by the ten horns exist and exercise authority in association with the scarlet beast for a short time. Warring against the Lamb, Jesus Christ, and those with him, they go down in defeat.—Re 17:3-5, 9-14."

Excerpts from Beasts, Symbolic — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is what we believe.....

Nice try. Now dump the watch tower library version, and find the truth for yourself. The "another" horn/king of Daniel 7:24, is Constantine, who will follow the ten horns coming out of Dictator Julius Caesar, the 10 kings (Augustus Caesars) that ruled in the era of the first two destructions of Jerusalem by Roman Generals/emperors, Pompey and Titus. The "another" king/horn/head is the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17:10, who also the "another beast" of Revelation 13:11, who is also Constantine, who was to "intend to make alterations in the times and in the law" (Daniel 7:25). The 8th head of the beast, who "was, is not, is himself the 8th" (Revelation 17:11). The 8th, who "was", and "is not" is the emperor Julius Caesar, and his 10 horns of the 8th head of the beast can be displayed as emperor kings, such as the Czar/Caesar of Russia, and the Kaiser/Caesar of Germany who hate the "harlot" Judah, and will persecute and burn her, as done by Hitler. The totality of all these kings have to fit in the summation of what is to take place via Daniel 2:35 & 44-45. They are all descriptions of the same events via different perspectives. The "holy people" of Daniel 12:7, are not the JWs, they are the Jews who have been under "shattering power" of the 7th head of the beast, Constantine and his Babylonian imaged church, and have been given to his power for time, times, and half a time (Daniel 7:25 & Dan 12:7). The beast of Revelation 13:11 is not "like a lamb", but his two horns, are like a lamb, in that they were the Christ like Peter and Paul, and by these two horns, he was to "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14). As per Revelation 20:2, the "dragon" is the "devil", and "serpent", the father of lies. He comes in the form of the sun god, Apollo, Sol Invictus, etc. The pillar of Constantine had the face of Apollo, and the crown of Sol Invictus. The devil, the dragon, is the source of the power of "beast" of Revelation 13:4, who as Julius Caesar, was "slain", and later "healed" as Augustus Caesars, and ruled for 42 months as Emperor of Rome after crossing the Rubicon. If you want to know why things are happening as they are, it is because the demons know their time is ending, and the demons will gather all the kings of the whole world to Har-Magedon to destroy Jerusalem (Revelation 16:13-16) & (Zechariah 14:1-3) but will be crushed per Daniel 2:35 & 44-45, and Joel 3:2, and Zechariah 14:1-3 & Jeremiah 30:11. All you will find in your JW library is the opinions of those who consider themselves wise and intelligent (Matthew 11:25), those who are kept in the dark.
 
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The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Since Solomon was gifted with Godly wisdom, his satires were a commentary on the futility of this life. And because the "sacred mystery" of the kingdom was yet to be clarified only after the outpouring of holy spirit received by Jesus' disciples at Pentecost, his words still convey the same meaning that many today lament. What is the point of this life, full of vanity and suffering? We have a full understanding now, as Daniel foretold we would have, in this "time of the end". (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)



Do you believe that God's word is his....or man's?
If it is God's word, then he controls what is included in it. If it is man's word, then God is deliberately misleading the whole world....yet, God said that satan is the greatest deceiver in this world. (1 John 5:19) We choose who to believe.....but, do people know when they are deceived? The master deceiver has had a very long time to perfect his craft.



It was a demon impersonating Samuel. The prophet was dead, and Saul had lost God's favor. If his living prophets refused to speak to Saul, why would a dead prophet speak to a man, using a forbidden means of communication, to tell him anything? Use your reasoning skills. Let the Bible itself explain.



This passage has lost something in the translation. The Bible does not contradict itself. The earthquake was a strong one and it is not at all unusual for graves to be upturned and the bodies of the dead exposed. A reading of that vague passage can also be understood to indicate that it was the people who observed the exposed bodies who went into the city to report it.



As I have mentioned, "holy ones" are spoken about in the OT part of the Bible, but they are not part of those with "the heavenly calling". Only those taken into the new covenant, instituted by Jesus just before his death, are those he promised to be "saints" (holy ones) in a special capacity to become 'kings and priests' and rule with Christ in his Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) No pre-Christian servant of God had that expectation....not even the apostles, at first.

Now, if the bodies of those saints were in fact resurrected, where are they? Where is there any mention of them after that brief account, and only in one of the gospels, by Matthew? Surely it would have been a big deal? No other mention is made of it. Or what these "saints" did or where they went.

The resurrection of the saints is said to be to immortal life in heaven. These "saints" were supposedly flesh and blood, walking about. That does not fit the Bible's scenario at all. It is clearly a misinterpretation.



This is also misinterpreted. Jesus was dead in his tomb for all three days. He did not go anywhere during that time, any more than Jonah went anywhere whilst confined to the belly of the sea creature who swallowed him. Jesus said that he would be in the heart of the earth just like Jonah was in the belly of the fish. (Matthew 12:38-40)
The Bible says that in the spirit, he "made a proclaimation to the spirits in prison"...what spirits are these?

I'll let Peter explain.....

"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water." (1 Peter 3:18-20 - NRSV)

You can see if you read this scripture, that people assume that Jesus was resurrected before the three days he said he would be in the tomb....but he was dead all that time. So when he was resurrected, he did go to deliver a judgment message to the wicked spirits who were disobedient in Noah's day. It was not the spirits of former humans. There are no such things as spirits of the dead.

What prison are these spirits occupying?

"And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great day." (Jude 1:6 - NRSV)


"For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment; and if he did not spare the ancient world, even though he saved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood on a world of the ungodly; and if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example of what is coming to the ungodly". (2 Peter 2:4-6 NRSV)

The "spirits" were rebel angels who materialized in Noah's day and caused the world of that time to be plunged into an extreme level of violence and immorality. God put a stop to it by eliminating that world and its wicked inhabitants, and forcing those wicked angels back to the spirit realm where he placed them under restraint. Not in "hell" as this erroneous translation indicates but in what is called "Tartarus". It is a condition, more than an actual prison. They were no longer able to take on human flesh.....a restriction, but not something that makes it impossible for them to cause trouble, which they continue to do.

Would you like a list of some of the false prophecies that have come from the cult that was founded by the false prophets, Russell and Rutherford?

1874 was the year designated by Charles Russell who is accepted as the head of the JW cult as the year of Christs invisible return, with the visible return in 1914. Both false prophecies.

1925 was the year that Rutherford, who succeeded Russell as the head of that cult, falsely predicted/prophesied that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the prophets would return to earth. He had a wonderful mansion built for them at the expense of his gullible followers.

1975 was the year that the cult prophesied as the year of the great battle of Armageddon.

Isaiah 57: 1-2; Good people die and no one understands or even cares, but when they (Good People) die, no calamity can hurt them. Those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death.

Isaiah, the Prophet of the Lord says that good people find peace and rest in death, The false prophets of the JW cult say that those who lead wicked lives will find peace and rest in death.

Sirach the prophet of the Lord says of Samuel, Sirach 46: 20; "Even after Samuel died, he prophesied to King Saul how he would die. Out of the grave he spoke as a prophet, to blot our his peoples wickedness."

The cult of proven false prophesies say; "Do not listen to the prophets, for it was not Samuel that spoke from the grave, but a demon."

Again I must ask you, who was the father of Shelah, Arpachshad or Cainam?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Nice try. Now dump the watch tower library version, and find the truth for yourself. The "another" horn/king of Daniel 7:24, is Constantine, who will follow the ten horns coming out of Dictator Julius Caesar, the 10 kings (Augustus Caesars) that ruled in the era of the first two destructions of Jerusalem by Roman Generals/emperors, Pompey and Titus. The "another" king/horn/head is the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17:10, who also the "another beast" of Revelation 13:11, who is also Constantine, who was to "intend to make alterations in the times and in the law" (Daniel 7:25). The 8th head of the beast, who "was, is not, is himself the 8th" (Revelation 17:11). The 8th, who "was", and "is not" is the emperor Julius Caesar, and his 10 horns of the 8th head of the beast can be displayed as emperor kings, such as the Czar/Caesar of Russia, and the Kaiser/Caesar of Germany who hate the "harlot" Judah, and will persecute and burn her, as done by Hitler. The totality of all these kings have to fit in the summation of what is to take place via Daniel 2:35 & 44-45. They are all descriptions of the same events via different perspectives. The "holy people" of Daniel 12:7, are not the JWs, they are the Jews who have been under "shattering power" of the 7th head of the beast, Constantine and his Babylonian imaged church, and have been given to his power for time, times, and half a time (Daniel 7:25 & Dan 12:7). The beast of Revelation 13:11 is not "like a lamb", but his two horns, are like a lamb, in that they were the Christ like Peter and Paul, and by these two horns, he was to "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14). As per Revelation 20:2, the "dragon" is the "devil", and "serpent", the father of lies. He comes in the form of the sun god, Apollo, Sol Invictus, etc. The pillar of Constantine had the face of Apollo, and the crown of Sol Invictus. The devil, the dragon, is the source of the power of "beast" of Revelation 13:4, who as Julius Caesar, was "slain", and later "healed" as Augustus Caesars, and ruled for 42 months as Emperor of Rome after crossing the Rubicon.

Who else believes what you believe? How do you know that your own version of events is correct? I'll stick to what has been presented as truth to me. I have examined it carefully and I find it compelling....I don't find your version anywhere near as accurate as those of my own brotherhood. Do you have a brotherhood? Who are they? Do you meet with them as the first Christians did?

If you want to know why things are happening as they are, it is because the demons know their time is ending, and the demons will gather all the kings of the whole world to Har-Magedon to destroy Jerusalem (Revelation 16:13-16) & (Zechariah 14:1-3) but will be crushed per Daniel 2:35 & 44-45, and Joel 3:2, and Zechariah 14:1-3 & Jeremiah 30:11.

We believe this too....so it looks like you got some of it right.

All you will find in your JW library is the opinions of those who consider themselves wise and intelligent (Matthew 11:25), those who are kept in the dark.

You are free to believe whatever you wish. But, what if its you in the dark? How would you know?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Would you like a list of some of the false prophecies that have come from the cult that was founded by the false prophets, Russell and Rutherford?

Do you understand that these were not false prophesies. They were mistaken times for the fulfillment of prophesy......we are still waiting for God's time to bring wickedness to an end. God obviously has his own timetable, but the watchman is posted on the Watchtower, and will alert God's people when something needs their attention. False alarms don't matter as long as we are ready. Why do you think emergency procedures need to be rehearsed?

C.T. Russell was not a prophet, and neither was Rutherford....nor did either of them ever claim to be one. They were both Presidents of a Bible Society. Russell began to publish his findings and gained quite a following as people became hungry for Bible knowledge, sick of the hypocrisy of the churches.
The Watchtower magazine was published and its still circulating even today....spanning three centuries.

Russell was actually one of a group of men from different faiths who were drawn together to examine the scriptures to see if Christendom's doctrines were based on the Bible......they found that none of them were. So gradually, as time went on they dismissed the false doctrines that dishonored Christ and his Father, and were were excited by the Bible's prophesy on the establishment of God's kingdom and hoped that in those various times it would come. God had other plans, but we were ready. Our hope was alive and well.

The cult of proven false prophesies say; "Do not listen to the prophets, for it was not Samuel that spoke from the grave, but a demon."

What is a cult? Do you belong to one? Your posts indicate a complete departure from what is taught in the accepted Bible canon. Do you have a brotherhood with whom you meet together in a congregation or is your membership a church of one? I have a brotherhood of over 8 and a half million strong who are found preaching the same Kingdom message in just about every nation on earth in their own language. What do you have?

You take an obscure personage from the Bible and turn him into a prophet?...and we are supposed to just believe you? Why?

I never said that the Apocryphal books had no truth to them, I said that they do not align with what is found in established scripture.They are out of harmony in many respects.

Again I must ask you, who was the father of Shelah, Arpachshad or Cainam?

What does it matter, The rest of scripture will tell you that Jews had no belief in life after death. It was a spirit that the witch of Endor saw and quoted, not a resurrected Samuel. They were forbidden to consult spirit mediums and Saul himself had removed them at Jehovah's command. Use your reasoning skill if you have any.

Communicating with the dead was a Canaanite practice and so were all the other demonic practices that Israel was told to avoid when coming in to take possession of the Promised Land. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

Saul illegally consulted a medium who brought up a demon to impersonate Samuel. The demons continue to use spirit mediums to convey the idea that satan planted in the woman's mind in Eden... "you surely will not die". God told Adam that he would simply return to the earth from which he was taken. No heaven or hell......just an endless sleep in eternal death for him.
 
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