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Comparing Catholic Beliefs with the Teachings of Jesus in Scripture

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Emperor Constantine who founded his church in the fourth century, was only converted to that false religion while he lay on his death bed.

That was the story written by Constantine's guy Friday, Eusebius, an original member of the Arian theology. I doubt the story is true. Constantine's god, was the god of war, and a united empire, and he gave honor to Sol Invictus to bring about this united empire. The new Roman church was simply and effort to unite his kingdom, which included the pagans and the variable so called Christians.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
As the "sons of God took wives and had offspring (Genesis 6:2-4), I am thinking angels/Cherubim/Seraphim could procreate, but were not supposed to.

According to Jude 6...."You also know that the angels who did not keep within their proper domain but abandoned their own place of residence, he has kept in eternal chains in utter darkness, locked up for the judgment of the great Day."

It seems as if "the angels who did not keep within their proper domain but abandoned their own place of residence" materialized human bodies for the unnatural intent of carnal pleasures of the flesh, taking human women "all they chose" as wives. (Genesis 6:1-4) These produced hybrid offspring called the "Nephilim" (giants) who had no right to live, and hence the need for the global deluge to eradicate these violent, freakish beings and send their errant fathers back to the spirit realm as demons, now under restraint. (Tartarus. 2 Peter 2:4) There is no record of the demons ever being able to materialize again after that.

According to Enoch, the "heavenly watchers took wives, which might have been the seraphim. There is some thought that one pair of the 6 wings was to cover the genitals of the Seraphim. Not proof, but interesting. Seraphim, Cherubim & The Four Living Creatures -- whyangels?com

Yes the term "watchers" is a little obscure, but one I am sure was in keeping with what was understood in Hebrew. One who keeps watch was a guard, so it would be in keeping with angels posted as guardians, a position which usually fell to cherubs. Seraphs were the personal attendants around the throne of God. Isaiah 6:2)

The Catholic Church does not even know who Azazel is. In the margins of the Good News Bible Catholic Study Edition, it is written that the Hebrew word 'AZAZEL' is unknown and may be the name of some desert demon, whereas the Holy Scriptures reveal that Azazel was one of the sons of God who came down to earth as observers, or watchers as Enoch calls them, and it was Azazel to whom all sin is to be ascribed.

That is why Moses gave to his brother Aaron the religious regulation, to choose a scape goat and lay his hands upon its head thereby symbolically transferring the sins of Israel unto the goat which was sent out into the wilderness to Azazel.

Not too sure of your explanation but according to my sources......The word “Azazel” occurs four times in the Bible, in regulations pertaining to Atonement Day. (Leviticus 16:8; 10; 26)
The etymology of this word is disputed. If we hold to the spelling in the Hebrew Masoretic text, ʽazaʼ·zelʹ seems to be a combination of two root words meaning “goat” and “disappear.” Thus the meaning “Goat That Disappears.” According to another derivation, based on the belief that there has been a transposition of two consonants, it means “Strength of God.” The Latin Vulgate renders the Hebrew word as caper emissarius, that is, “the emissary goat,” or “the scapegoat.” And the Greek expression used in the Septuagint means “the one carrying away (averting) evil.”[/QUOTE]
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
They probably destroyed them and threw them away. Personally, I wouldn't be offended if people got on peoples cases who get carried away with the statues... They're certainly not meant to be worshipped, but there are stupid people in every Church, Lord have mercy.

Our priest and monsignor drove big expensive cars, and I doubt if they would throw something away if they could sell them and make some money. You seem a post ecumenical type of guy. Not really tuned in to the traditional Latin speaking services, were the people were to be kept under the veil, or at least the women. The church is the same, but with a different face. I think the basement services have guitars. It is a big church with 3 double services on Sunday, one in the upstairs and one downstairs, every hour. It was a money machine.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
There is no record of the demons ever being able to materialize again after that.

Demons don't "materialize", they possess their hosts, whether human or swine. The big move of the demons comes in Revelation 16:13-16, which appears to be happening while we speak.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Landon Caeli can you please tell me what you believe a "saint" is......and when they are chosen to be saints...who chooses them?
 
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Cooky

Veteran Member
Actually, the Eastern Catholic church made Constantine a Saint, and they have their own pope, and the Eastern Church, out of Constantinople, was given precedence over Rome, until the Roman Emperor Theodosius convened another Council in 381 AD, which made Rome the first in precedence.

I agree with you. I've never heard of "St. Constantine" before...

Also, here is a short video that shed light for me today, as this "Church of Constantine" really caught me off guard. All new to me!


This video is only 2 or 3 minutes:
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
There are literally hundreds of Canonized Saints. Mother Teresa is one of the Most recent people who have been officially canonized.

...She is now St. Teresa.

The question is, are they in heaven, or dead and in the grave. Can you get a soothsayer to talk to Mother Teresa, and if so, what does God say about such a practice?
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I agree with you. I've never heard of "St. Constantine" before...

The emperor Constantine instituted the Roman church at his convened Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. He is well known for killing his wife and son, which makes his sainthood a bit overboard. His god was the sun god, Sol Invictus, whose given sign, in 312 AD, was the sign of the cross. Of course, the Roman church has edited history by way of Constantine's right hand man Eusebius.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
@Landon Caeli aeli can you please tell me what you believe a "saint" is......and when they are chosen to be saints...who chooses them?

For the cannonization process, off the top on f my head, I know there are several qualifications, one of which I believe must be something miraculous to have occurred during that persons life.

...Once all conditions are met, that person is eligabke for canonization.

I could look up the exact conditions if you'd like.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Demons don't "materialize", they possess their hosts, whether human or swine.

They do not materialize now, but they did back in Noah's day. Otherwise these "sons of the true God" taking wives for themselves would not have rated a mention in Genesis ch 6. There was nothing new about men taking wives....but something very new for rebel angels. Demons possessing humans is only spoken about in Jesus' day but it sounds like it was not uncommon.
Demon Possession — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The incident with the swine is an interesting one, since only Gentiles herded swine (they were unclean to Jews) and the entire herd leapt to their death. It would have meant a great financial loss to the owners...but what a story for the swine-herders to tell!

The big move of the demons comes in Revelation 16:13-16, which appears to be happening while we speak.

I agree, we are ready for this as it could happen any time now.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
For the cannonization process, off the top on f my head, I know there are several qualifications, one of which I believe must be something miraculous to have occurred during that persons life.

...Once all conditions are met, that person is eligabke for canonization.

I could look up the exact conditions if you'd like.

I understand what they are from a Catholic perspective, but are they the same from the Bible's perspective? Have you ever investigated what is said about "saints" in the NT?
Would you like to explore that?
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
The emperor Constantine instituted the Roman church at his convened Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. He is well known for killing his wife and son, which makes his sainthood a bit overboard. His god was the sun god, Sol Invictus, whose given sign, in 312 AD, was the sign of the cross. Of course, the Roman church has edited history by way of Constantine's right hand man Eusebius.

No, actually all he did was to end widespread persection against Christian's and paved the way for the Roman government to adopt Christianity later on, as the state religion.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I understand what they are from a Catholic perspective, but are they the same from the Bible's perspective? Have you ever investigated what is said about "saints" in the NT?
Would you like to explore that?

I would be open to that. However I'm afraid my attention will be spotty, as I'm getting into some family things right now.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
For the cannonization process, off the top on f my head, I know there are several qualifications, one of which I believe must be something miraculous to have occurred during that persons life.

...Once all conditions are met, that person is eligabke for canonization.

I could look up the exact conditions if you'd like.

Let's look at another Catholic Saint; Saint Clement of Alexandria.

In Alexandria, by the second century, ‘Docetism,’ the concept that Jesus had existed as a spirit rather than a human being, had all but theoretically been stamped out. But still, there persisted the belief that their Jesus, although seen as a sort of human being, did not have our normal bodily needs, such as eating, drinking and excretion, and Clement the bishop of Alexandria, wrote: “It would be ridiculous to imagine that the redeemer, in order to exist, had the usual needs of man. He only took food and ate it in order that we should not teach about him in a Docetic fashion.” Satan must have had some trouble trying to tempt this false Jesus of theirs who had no need of food into turning stones into bread.

Their Jesus was not the Jesus as taught by the apostles, but that other Jesus, taught by the Anti-Christ, who unlike we mere HUMAN BEINGS, did not need to eat, drink, or go to the toilet, as was taught by one of the great teachers that the authorities of Emperor Constantine’s universal church, used as one of their authorities when trying to defend their false doctrines.

Saint Clement of Alexandria, who was a saint in the Martyrology of the Roman universal church, in support of the great lie, speaks of the time that some imaginary midwife, who was supposed to be at the birth of Jesus, (Non-biblical) told some woman by the name Salome, that the mother was still a virgin after the birth and that her hymen was still intact, and that this supposed Salome, stuck her finger into the mother’s vagina to check, and her hand immediately withered up, but the baby Jesus reached out and touched her hand and healed it.

Clement was accepted as a saint in the universal church, which was established by King Constantine, from a rag-tag group of insult hurling religious bodies, who called themselves christians. Eventually, sick to the stomach with their constant quarreling and abuse toward each other, Constantine summoned all the leaders of those groups to the first ever "World Council of churches," where, in 325 AD, some 300 years after the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ had been firmly established in Jerusalem, the non-christian, and almost certainly theologically illiterate Constantine, established his universal church, which has nothing to do with the Jesus as taught by the apostles.

Down to the 17th century Clement was venerated as a saint. His name was to be found in the Martyrologies, and his feast fell on December 4. But when the Roman Martyrology was revised by Clement VIII (Pope from 1592 to 1605), his name was dropped from the calendar on the advice of his confessor, Cardinal Baronius. Pope Benedict XIV in 1748 maintained his predecessor's decision on the grounds that Clements life was little-known; that he had never obtained public cultus in the Church; and that some of his doctrines were, if not erroneous, at least highly suspect.

"ERRONEOUS--HIGHLY SUSPECT," they certainly got that right, but by then the false teaching of the so-called virgin birth had become firmly established in the minds of those people, whose brains are so mixed up and set as hard as concrete, today, one would need a sledge hammer to crack that concrete to allow the light of truth to enter in.

“Jesus The Evidence,” by Ian Wilson. P. 144. The Middle Ages, for the Jews at least, began with the advent to power of Constantine the Great. He was the first Roman Emperor to issue laws which radically limited the rights of the Jews as citizens’ of the Roman Empire, a right conferred on them by Caracalla in 212. As Constantine’s church grew in power it influenced the emperors to limit further the civil and political rights of the Jews.

But if times were again difficult for the Jews, for the Christian Gnostics and other fringe groups they were impossible. The books of Arius and his sympathizers were ordered to be burnt, and a reign of terror proclaimed for all those who did not conform with the new official Christian line.

:Understand now by this present statute, Novatians, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulinians, you who are called Cataphrygians. . . . with what a tissue of lies and vanities, with what destructive and venomous errors, your doctrines are inextricably woven! We give you warning . . . .Let none of you presume, from this time forward, to meet in congregations. To prevent this, we command that you be deprived of all the houses in which you have been accustomed to meet . . . . and that these house should be handed over immediately to the catholic/ i.e. universal church.

Within a generation, hardly leaving a trace of their existence for posterity, the great majority of these groups simply died away as successive Christian emperors reiterated the policies that Constantine had pursued.

The many denominational daughters of the Roman Church of Constantine today, were spawned from the Pagan spirit/teachings of that church.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
OK...According to Roman Catholic teaching, saints are those who died and are now with Christ in heaven and who have been given recognition by the Church for outstanding holiness and virtue. The Tridentine profession of faith states that the saints are to be invoked as intercessors with God and that both the relics of saints and images of the saints are to be venerated.

But is this what scripture says? "Saints" are also called "holy ones". This kind of "holiness" is also used to describe God's spirit.

At Acts 9:32-41 there are two separate accounts mentioning "saints" and "holy ones"......

"Now as Peter was traveling around from place to place, he also came down to the saints who lived in Lydda.. . . . Giving her his hand, he raised her up, and he called the holy ones and the widows and presented her alive."

2 Corinthians 1:1....."From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, to the church of God that is in Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia."

Are we to pray to the "saints" as intercessors?

The practice of praying to saints is based on the doctrine of intercession by saints, taught by the Catholic Church. The basic idea is “pleading by one who in God’s sight has a right to do so in order to obtain mercy for one in need,” according to the New Catholic Encyclopedia. So, one praying to saints does so with the hope that special favor may be obtained through them because of their blessed position before God.

Does the Bible teach such a doctrine? Is that what Jesus taught? Jesus said: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

The apostle Paul added regarding Christ: “He not only died for us—he rose from the dead, and there at God’s right hand he stands and pleads for us.” “He is living for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.” (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25. (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25, JB)
Paul also said....at Ephesians 6:18, 19, JB: “Never get tired of staying awake to pray for all the saints; and pray for me to be given an opportunity to open my mouth and speak without fear and give out the mystery of the gospel."

Do you see any place for the intercession of saints? This also rules out Mary, who was undoubtedly a saint, but no more of an intercessor than the other saints. Jesus was appointed as the only mediator between God and men. (1 Timothy 2:5)

So I am hoping that you will see a very different view of saints from the Bible's perspective. The early Christians were to pray for the saints and whilst they were alive.....not the other way around after they were dead. All the saints mentioned in the Bible were alive, and they were chosen by God, not the church. There is no criteria for the church to judge who is worthy of sainthood, because it was never their call. No one has to 'lobby' God to make someone a saint.

What are your thoughts?
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
OK...According to Roman Catholic teaching, saints are those who died and are now with Christ in heaven and who have been given recognition by the Church for outstanding holiness and virtue. The Tridentine profession of faith states that the saints are to be invoked as intercessors with God and that both the relics of saints and images of the saints are to be venerated.

But is this what scripture says? "Saints" are also called "holy ones". This kind of "holiness" is also used to describe God's spirit.

At Acts 9:32-41 there are two separate accounts mentioning "saints" and "holy ones"......

"Now as Peter was traveling around from place to place, he also came down to the saints who lived in Lydda.. . . . Giving her his hand, he raised her up, and he called the holy ones and the widows and presented her alive."

2 Corinthians 1:1....."From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, to the church of God that is in Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia."

Are we to pray to the "saints" as intercessors?

The practice of praying to saints is based on the doctrine of intercession by saints, taught by the Catholic Church. The basic idea is “pleading by one who in God’s sight has a right to do so in order to obtain mercy for one in need,” according to the New Catholic Encyclopedia. So, one praying to saints does so with the hope that special favor may be obtained through them because of their blessed position before God.

Does the Bible teach such a doctrine? Is that what Jesus taught? Jesus said: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

The apostle Paul added regarding Christ: “He not only died for us—he rose from the dead, and there at God’s right hand he stands and pleads for us.” “He is living for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.” (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25. (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25, JB)
Paul also said....at Ephesians 6:18, 19, JB: “Never get tired of staying awake to pray for all the saints; and pray for me to be given an opportunity to open my mouth and speak without fear and give out the mystery of the gospel."

Do you see any place for the intercession of saints? This also rules out Mary, who was undoubtedly a saint, but no more of an intercessor than the other saints. Jesus was appointed as the only mediator between God and men. (1 Timothy 2:5)

So I am hoping that you will see a very different view of saints from the Bible's perspective. The early Christians were to pray for the saints and whilst they were alive.....not the other way around after they were dead. All the saints mentioned in the Bible were alive, and they were chosen by God, not the church. There is no criteria for the church to judge who is worthy of sainthood, because it was never their call. No one has to 'lobby' God to make someone a saint.

What are your thoughts?

What are my thoughts? I think of Samuel, who I believe is a Saint in the eyes of the Lord, and I read and believe what the prophet Sirach wrote concerning Samuel. Sirach 46: 20; "Moreover after he died he was inquired of. He declared unto the King his way and he lifted his voice from the earth to blot out iniquity by prophecy."
 
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