Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

Jollybear said:

I dont NEED to say "im a rational christian"

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You don't GET to say "I'm a rational Christian"--at least, not without breaking the commandment against bearing false witness.

Ancient Soul said:

" ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$."
So face it, you've been conned for the last 2,000 years because it's NEVER going to happen. It's a myth, nothing more.
Here, LOOK at the verses your priest hide from you:
Matthew 24:25-34
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 16:28 - Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Luke 9:27 - But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
So SEE, his "return" was supposed to have occurred during the lifetime of his direct disciples. And since it did NOT, that's it, the game was over some 2,000 years and you all have been lied to ever since.

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I don't understand your obsession with $$$$ because Christians do Not charge for teaching. False clergy do.

Both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 have a minor and a MAJOR fulfillment.
The tribulation of the year 70 when the Roman armies destroyed un-faithful Jerusalem has nothing to do with the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 which I see you chose to ignore.

It is Matthew 25:31-33 that is ahead of us. A lot of Matthew 24 is already fulfilled.

How did you get out of Luke 19:11-15 that his ' return ' was to be in the first century.
What did Jesus say to his followers about his return.
Jesus as that nobleman would first have to go away to a far county ( heaven ) before he would later return.
That does Not sound immediate to me, so how do you get immediate out of Luke 19:11-15 ______
Revelation was Not written until the end of the first century.

Luke 9:27-32 and Matthew 17:9 have to do with the ' transfiguration VISION ' Jesus' coming glory time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Why jump all over the place and Not stick to just one topic at a time ______

Good gravy, i gotta get off this forum and take a long break from it because this is just getting on my nerves dealing with this bull crap all the time.

Jollybear said:

For someone that claims to be spiritual, how do you justify mocking and redicule as a part of spirituality and honest/intelligent discussion?

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Thanks for proving that you are clueless on anything truly "spiritual", since you obviously don't even know what it means, so cannot even know the basics.

But enough of your avoidance and back to the dibate on:

The whole jesus myth/bible was "invented" by plagiarizing other previous man/"god" pagan myths to start a then 'new" religion, that morphed into what is known as Christianity today. So THAT is why your mythology/bible falls into the classification of my statement of:

" ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$."

Axe Elf said:

You don't GET to say "I'm a rational Christian"--at least, not without breaking the commandment against bearing false witness.

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You broke it then.

Jollybear said:

And i use logic and reason just fine.

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You use logic and reason like an Amish person uses spandex and electricity.

Jollybear said:

And how do you know being in agreement with you is the result of rationality

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Try rationality sometime and see.

Jollybear said:

To stick to that is the height of arrogance, would it not?

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Maybe, but if I am arrogant about reason, I can afford to be--I'm right.

Jollybear said:

You think your better or above me?

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I am more skilled at logic and reason than you--by a wide margin. Does that make me a more valuable person? Of course not. I'm sure you have your gifts and skills too, it's just that reason isn't one of them. Maybe you can stitch a mean quilt--I would be lost if I tried. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go to a quilting fair and pretend that my rags stapled together are as good of a quilt as any there on display.

You're coming in with nonsense and pretending that it should be given the same consideration as rational arguments, and that is, of course, preposterous.

Jollybear said:

Humility is not one of ypur greater strengths i see.

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Actually, it's only my great humility that makes me better than everyone else.

Ancient Soul said:

Thanks for proving that you are clueless on anything truly "spiritual", since you obviously don't even know what it means, so cannot even know the basics.

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Ok, if i dont understand spirituality, why dont you answer my question and tell me how mocking, being a hypocrite, not discussing intelligently has any part of spirituality?

DEFINE spirituality for me.

But enough of your avoidance and back to the dibate on:

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You see, this is your problem, is this arrogant approuch. You think im "avoiding" and there is no such thing going on. Whats going on is that your mocking is pissing me off.

The whole jesus myth/bible was "invented" by plagiarizing other previous man/"god" pagan myths to start a then 'new" religion, that morphed into what is known as Christianity today. So THAT is why your mythology/bible falls into the classification of my statement of:

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Ok, how do you know that?

" ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$."

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Theres atheists that write books and make money off it, this means nothing.

Axe Elf said:

You use logic and reason like an Amish person uses spandex and electricity.



Try rationality sometime and see.



Maybe, but if I am arrogant about reason, I can afford to be--I'm right.



I am more skilled at logic and reason than you--by a wide margin. Does that make me a more valuable person? Of course not. I'm sure you have your gifts and skills too, it's just that reason isn't one of them. Maybe you can stitch a mean quilt--I would be lost if I tried. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go to a quilting fair and pretend that my rags stapled together are as good of a quilt as any there on display.

You're coming in with nonsense and pretending that it should be given the same consideration as rational arguments, and that is, of course, preposterous.



Actually, it's only my great humility that makes me better than everyone else.

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Everything you said here, EVERYTHING is completely rediculious.

You have proven that you are NOT skilled at logic or rationality due to the FACT that you have not answered my points and pending questions on the adam/eve topic.

Actions speak louder then words and your actions prove your not rational and my actions prove i am.

URAVIP2ME said:

I don't understand your obsession with $$$$ because Christians do Not charge for teaching. False clergy do.

Both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 have a minor and a MAJOR fulfillment.
The tribulation of the year 70 when the Roman armies destroyed un-faithful Jerusalem has nothing to do with the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 which I see you chose to ignore.

It is Matthew 25:31-33 that is ahead of us. A lot of Matthew 24 is already fulfilled.

How did you get out of Luke 19:11-15 that his ' return ' was to be in the first century.
What did Jesus say to his followers about his return.
Jesus as that nobleman would first have to go away to a far county ( heaven ) before he would later return.
That does Not sound immediate to me, so how do you get immediate out of Luke 19:11-15 ______
Revelation was Not written until the end of the first century.

Luke 9:27-32 and Matthew 17:9 have to do with the ' transfiguration VISION ' Jesus' coming glory time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Why jump all over the place and Not stick to just one topic at a time ______

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Ha, YOU are the one trying these tactics of avoidance by constantly bringing in things that have nothing to do with the discussion about:

" ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$."

URAVIP2ME said:

Both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 have a minor and a MAJOR fulfillment.
The tribulation of the year 70 when the Roman armies destroyed un-faithful Jerusalem has nothing to do with the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 which I see you chose to ignore.

It is Matthew 25:31-33 that is ahead of us. A lot of Matthew 24 is already fulfilled.

How did you get out of Luke 19:11-15 that his ' return ' was to be in the first century.
What did Jesus say to his followers about his return.
Jesus as that nobleman would first have to go away to a far county ( heaven ) before he would later return.
That does Not sound immediate to me, so how do you get immediate out of Luke 19:11-15 ______
Revelation was Not written until the end of the first century.

Luke 9:27-32 and Matthew 17:9 have to do with the ' transfiguration VISION ' Jesus' coming glory time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Why jump all over the place and Not stick to just one topic at a time ______

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None of which refutes the verses I posted. Did you even read them???

Here, now read them VERY CAREFULLY:

Matthew 24:25-34
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 16:28 - Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Luke 9:27 - But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

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Now pat strict attention to these statements:

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."

Jollybear said:

In his mind, being a christian PERIOD isnt rational.

Good luck.

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I'm just pointing out the fact.

I mean, when someone thinks "God" is a 2,000 year old dead guy, well, that alone isn't rational.

Good night all. My head has had enough for one night.

Ancient Soul said:

I'm just pointing out the fact.

I mean, when someone thinks "God" is a 2,000 year old dead guy, well, that alone isn't rational.

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Thats a strawman argument.

The body of Jesus died. It rose. The evidence of resurrection is the apostles dying for the claim of what they witnessed.

Rationality does not mock, it breaks apart, patiently and intelligently the other persons position.

Your not doing that though. Your mocking. Thats the oposite of rationality. That also does not make you spiritual either. Spirituality realizes that your a human just like "those christians" thus making you no better then they are.

Axe Elf said:

The only thing you got wrong was the part about Satan being destroyed, as if he was just another wicked human. The passage I quoted, in Revelation 20:10, clearly states that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night forever and ever. The distinction you're trying to draw between "torment" and "torture" is not only a thin one, it's irrelevant to the topic of destruction (in which one could be neither tortured nor tormented) versus eternal suffering.

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I find sinner Satan is wicked. No one wicked is granted everlasting life.
Psalms 92:7 says the wicked ( It does Not say human wicked ) will be destroyed forever .
I find Jesus will destroy Satan according to Hebrews 2:14 B. What do you get out of Hebrews 2:14 B.
I think it is Satan who is the crushed/ bruised in the head of Genesis 3:15. Head as in death stroke.
To me that ' bruise ' of Romans 16:20 under Jesus' feet is not just a bruise as we think, but a crushing.
Satan will be crushed under Jesus' feet.
I find Satan to be an enemy of Jesus. Jesus rules until all his enemies are under his feet - Psalms 110
Even the last enemy 'death ' will be brought to nothing as per 1 Corinthians 15:26.
Sinner Satan ends up in ' second death ' as per Revelation 21:8.
I find in Matthew 18:34 Matthew 18:30 that a jailer was a tormentor.
The torment ( Not torture ) was being in jail.- Acts 16:23,27,36.
Torture in jail to me is more than a thin line for torment.
(In school some pupils think they are in torment, but Not tortured by a teacher or classmate)
Before Satan is destroyed he will be abyssed for a thousand years. That is the torment of prison.
Then, Satan's works will die with him - 1 John 3:8 B.
The beast and false prophet are Not a literal beast and false prophet as Revelation is written in signs.

Jollybear said:

Everything you said here, EVERYTHING is completely rediculious.

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Since "rediculious" isn't a word that the rest of us use, I'm going to have to take YOUR word for it.

URAVIP2ME said:

Before Satan is destroyed he will be abyssed for a thousand years. That is the torment of prison.

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But it's only for a thousand years, nowhere near "forever and ever."

Therefore...

::: buzzer sound :::

Axe Elf said:

Since "rediculious" isn't a word that the rest of us use, I'm going to have to take YOUR word for it.

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You know what i mean. Misspelling a word is not a lack of rationality either.

ridiculous, there, ya feel better now?

Anyway, i gotta go to bed.

Jollybear said:

Ok, if i dont understand spirituality, why dont you answer my question and tell me how mocking, being a hypocrite, not discussing intelligently has any part of spirituality?

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I'll answer your question as soon as you answer my question and tell me how tree cutting, roller-coasters, and bumblebees has any part of making bread.

Jollybear said:

DEFINE spirituality for me.

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Thanks for proving the point I keep on repeating that Christians are spiritually clueless, they don't even know what "spiritual" even means. Yet they claim to have all the "spiritual" answers. Funny isn't it?

Does everybody SEE how he doesn't know and is asking me?

Jollybear said:

You see, this is your problem, is this arrogant approuch. You think im "avoiding" and there is no such thing going on. Whats going on is that your mocking is pissing me off.

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Now you know how everyone else feels trying to deal with you arrogant Christians who always avoid facing hard questions about their religion, yet mock everyone else's.

Now enough of this avoidance nonsense, back to the topic at hand:

" ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$."

Jollybear said:

You know what i mean. Misspelling a word is not a lack of rationality either.

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I can understand the occasional typo, but the misuse and misspelling of words throughout the body of one's work is a legitimate indicator of their general level of intellectual functioning.

The saturation of your posts with such errors doesn't look good for you when you are trying to insist that one nonsensical diatribe or another is actually rational.

Axe Elf said:

Well, that's why you have us prophets, to help you sort out the more difficult concepts.

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Umm . . . no. You are no more of a prophet than I am.

URAVIP2ME said:

Yipes! What is ' fear mongering ' about the Resurrection Hope - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
False clergy have used fiery ' scare tactics ' on the flock of God, but that is Not what the Bible teaches.
KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever Not burning forever.
Christians have No fear because it is the wicked will be destroyed forever as per Psalms 92:7.
Only those who bring ruin to Earth will be ruined - Revelation 11:18 B.
God will have Jesus come to the rescue, so Christians do Not have to fear the future but look forward to the future.
A coming future when mankind will have perfect human health as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

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Ha. ha. ha...

The whole Christian brainwashing system is based upon a super heavy duty of FEAR mongering.

So prove me "wrong", if they didn't brainwash FEAR into you, then just walk away and quit being a Christian and join some other mythology. Since you just claimed you have nothing to FEAR, go ahead and quit Christianity. Nothing fearful will happen, right?