• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Question about jesus

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That is why the tree was called "the tree of the knowledge of good and bad". I have heard people simply refer to it as "the tree of knowledge" as if they didn't know anything and the tree was something that would give them knowledge. That is what the devil implied...that they would be like God, "knowing good and bad" for themselves. What that meant in essence was that God placed the distinction between the two in his own jurisdiction. God would decide what was good and bad for them. We see that after the fall, deciding between good and bad became increasingly more difficult. Today both terms have been turned on their ear. What is good is bad and what is bad is good. We would have been so much better off if our parents had simply obeyed. Its all God has ever asked of us.



This is how you tell the true Christians from the false ones, (the wheat from the weeds.) True Christians will follow the teachings of Christ and his apostles regardless of what people think. We don't dictate our preferred standards to God....he is the one who dictates them to us. It is a waste of time claiming to be Christian if you fail to follow what Christ taught. (Matthew 7:21-23; Luke 6:46)
As far as better off goes, naturally if Adam and Eve had not sinned they would have been a better example to their children. Meantime they were no longer allowed to live in the garden of Eden. And life would be harsh.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
As far as better off goes, naturally if Adam and Eve had not sinned they would have been a better example to their children.

Why do you think God put humans on earth if, as some believe, he intended to take them to heaven? He already had millions of angels there and none of them had to be humans first.

Do you think being mortal meant that the humans had to die of some natural cause, or do you see another reason for their mortality? The Bible speaks of everlasting life as well as immortality....but are they the same?

Meantime they were no longer allowed to live in the garden of Eden. And life would be harsh.

Why do you think God kicked them out? Couldn't he have just forgiven them? You see, I had all these questions when I was young and no one had the answers. I found it very frustrating because I have to know the "why's" of everything. How could trained church ministers not know the answers to my many questions? I wondered if there even were answers.....but I was helped to find them in the Bible by someone who was helped to do that too. I love passing on what I have learned. Sometimes its a bit confronting, but the Bible doesn't pull any punches.
 

mindlight

See in the dark
Since Luke 16 is a parable illustrative story it is Not anything else but one of Jesus' illustrations.
Also, I find the 'transfiguration' (Luke 9:28-34) is a 'VISION' and Not a real happening as per Matthew 17:9.
Jesus instructed them to tell the 'VISION' to No one at that time.

You read like a theology student scared of the opinion of a liberal professor. Parables connected to realities and revealed simple truths. The more we allegorise their meaning the less clear the meaning. The straightforward interpretation of a literal heaven and a literal hell between which an impassable gulf is fixed is the context which Jesus affirms in Luke 16.

There is no reason in the text to suspect that the transfiguration did not happen as described.

Jesus was made alive on his Resurrection Day, Not before he was resurrected.
1 Peter 3:18-22; 2 Peter 2:4-5; Jude 1:6.

Preaching in his spirit while dead and being raised to the fullness of his glorified resurrected body to life are not incompatible or contradictory.

Jesus 'ascended' to heaven at the time of Acts of the Apostles 1:9 Not before that.

As God He never left heaven, as man his journey back to heaven started in Acts 1:9. Preaching to the spirits of the dead occurred in Hades.

Revelation was written way after Jesus was resurrected. Revelation was written at the end of the first century.
Revelation was written for our day or time frame.

Revelation was written by John who was an eyewitness to the life of Christ and of His words within a generation of Christs death.

Revelation 6:9-11 is about those martyrs (should rest) resting (sleeping) in their graves.
These martyrs are part of the first or earlier resurrection to heaven as per Revelation 20:6; 2:10.
That resurrection did Not take place in the first century, but at the time of Revelation (Revelation 1:5) happening.

That reads like an attempt to force an interpretative framework on the text. The straightforward reading is of disembodied spirits waiting for justice.

I find Solomon at Ecclesiastes 9:5 is in harmony with Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18

Maybe but Solomon only had a limited vision compared to a NT Christian.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
You read like a theology student scared of the opinion of a liberal professor. Parables connected to realities and revealed simple truths. The more we allegorise their meaning the less clear the meaning. The straightforward interpretation of a literal heaven and a literal hell between which an impassable gulf is fixed is the context which Jesus affirms in Luke 16.
There is no reason in the text to suspect that the transfiguration did not happen as described
Preaching in his spirit while dead and being raised to the fullness of his glorified resurrected body to life are not incompatible or contradictory.
As God He never left heaven, as man his journey back to heaven started in Acts 1:9. Preaching to the spirits of the dead occurred in Hades.
Revelation was written by John who was an eyewitness to the life of Christ and of His words within a generation of Christs death.
That reads like an attempt to force an interpretative framework on the text. The straightforward reading is of disembodied spirits waiting for justice.
Maybe but Solomon only had a limited vision compared to a NT Christian.

Seems to me you are also trying to say Jesus had a limited vision because Jesus based his teachings on the OT.
Jesus taught 'SLEEP' in death at John 11:11-14.
Jesus being well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures would have learned that sleeping condition from them.
So, what Jesus taught is in harmony with Solomon at Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18

Those ' disembodied spirits ' were those fallen angels who used 'materialized bodies' that were washed away in the Flood, thus placed in the darkness of tartarus - Jude 1:6; 2 Peter 2:4-5; 1 Peter 3:18-19.

Agree, Revelation was written by John, John who also penned John 11:11-14.
Since Revelation was written at the end of the first century it does Not apply to the first century.

Jesus was asleep in the grave ( Acts of the Apostles 2:27) until his God resurrected Jesus out of the grave.
Resurrection did Not happen on the day Jesus' died. Jesus went to 'hell' the day he died.
There is No life in hades/hell because biblical hell is only the temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
Those ' spirits ' were never in biblical hell. Tartarus is Not another word for hades/hell/ grave.

Yes, the transfiguration vision happened just as described at Matthew 17:9 it was a VISION.
Jesus said to tell the transfiguration VISION to no one at that time frame.
A VISION is Not a literal happening but was a VISION according to Matthew 17:9.

Luke 16 is a parable story just as Matthew 13:35-36 informs us Jesus would Not speak to them without a parable.
Mark agrees at Mark 4:11.
 
Last edited:

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
He said he was dead and then described what that meant. It is clear that Lazarus and the rich man were conscious in death but separated as are heaven and hell.

The Lazarus in Luke 16 is Not the same Lazarus as found at John 11:11-14 who lived with Mary and Martha.
Lazarus was a common name back them, to the Lazarus of Luke 16 stands for the 'common man'.
The 'rich man' stood for the Pharisees (Luke 16:14-15; Luke 16:19) whom Jesus was there addressing.
So, the parable illustration was showing the spiritual change that was happening,
Now the Pharisees would Not have God's favor, but the common Lazarus people would be blessed spiritually.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Speaking of which, if someone doesn't know which way is pleasing to God, then what?

First of all, God is only a prayer away, and we can be like the people of Acts of the Apostles 17:11 who searched or researched the Scriptures daily to see if what they were hearing, what they were learning, was really found in Scripture.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Seems to me you are also trying to say Jesus had a limited vision because Jesus based his teachings on the OT.
Jesus taught 'SLEEP' in death at John 11:11-14.
Jesus being well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures would have learned that sleeping condition from them.
So, what Jesus taught is in harmony with Solomon at Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18

Those ' disembodied spirits ' were those fallen angels who used 'materialized bodies' that were washed away in the Flood, thus placed in the darkness of tartarus - Jude 1:6; 2 Peter 2:4-5; 1 Peter 3:18-19.

Agree, Revelation was written by John, John who also penned John 11:11-14.
Since Revelation was written at the end of the first century it does Not apply to the first century.

Jesus was asleep in the grave ( Acts of the Apostles 2:27) until his God resurrected Jesus out of the grave.
Resurrection did Not happen on the day Jesus' died. Jesus went to 'hell' the day he died.
There is No life in hades/hell because biblical hell is only the temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
Those ' spirits ' were never in biblical hell. Tartarus is Not another word for hades/hell/ grave.

Yes, the transfiguration vision happened just as described at Matthew 17:9 it was a VISION.
Jesus said to tell the transfiguration VISION to no one at that time frame.
A VISION is Not a literal happening but was a VISION according to Matthew 17:9.

Luke 16 is a parable story just as Matthew 13:35-36 informs us Jesus would Not speak to them without a parable.
Mark agrees at Mark 4:11.

Correct! You will also notice in Luke 9: 32----that Peter and his companions were HEAVY WITH SLEEP, but awake when they saw the vision and heard the heavenly voice say; "This is my son whom I have CHOSEN; listen to him."
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why do you think God put humans on earth if, as some believe, he intended to take them to heaven? He already had millions of angels there and none of them had to be humans first.

Do you think being mortal meant that the humans had to die of some natural cause, or do you see another reason for their mortality? The Bible speaks of everlasting life as well as immortality....but are they the same?



Why do you think God kicked them out? Couldn't he have just forgiven them? You see, I had all these questions when I was young and no one had the answers. I found it very frustrating because I have to know the "why's" of everything. How could trained church ministers not know the answers to my many questions? I wondered if there even were answers.....but I was helped to find them in the Bible by someone who was helped to do that too. I love passing on what I have learned. Sometimes its a bit confronting, but the Bible doesn't pull any punches.
In answer to your first point, God wanted a new creation on the earth. Yes, He already had myriads of angels in heaven.
I don't think immortality is the same as everlasting life, if that's what you are asking. Although the immortal ones (like Jesus) cannot die.
I don't use the expression"kicked them out" of the Garden. He banished them but He gave them clothing to cover them up. It is wonderful that we have answers to these questions. I agree, not everyone is ableto answer such questions. People in general are in the dark. Jesus is the light. He does not allow everyone and anyone to know him and His Father.
He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. Matthew 25:33.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
First of all, God is only a prayer away, and we can be like the people of Acts of the Apostles 17:11 who searched or researched the Scriptures daily to see if what they were hearing, what they were learning, was really found in Scripture.
As Paul reasoned with the Greeks in Acts 17, v26, not everyone prays to the true God.
"that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,"
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Seems to me you are also trying to say Jesus had a limited vision because Jesus based his teachings on the OT.
Jesus taught 'SLEEP' in death at John 11:11-14.
Jesus being well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures would have learned that sleeping condition from them.
So, what Jesus taught is in harmony with Solomon at Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18

Those ' disembodied spirits ' were those fallen angels who used 'materialized bodies' that were washed away in the Flood, thus placed in the darkness of tartarus - Jude 1:6; 2 Peter 2:4-5; 1 Peter 3:18-19.

Agree, Revelation was written by John, John who also penned John 11:11-14.
Since Revelation was written at the end of the first century it does Not apply to the first century.

Jesus was asleep in the grave ( Acts of the Apostles 2:27) until his God resurrected Jesus out of the grave.
Resurrection did Not happen on the day Jesus' died. Jesus went to 'hell' the day he died.
There is No life in hades/hell because biblical hell is only the temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
Those ' spirits ' were never in biblical hell. Tartarus is Not another word for hades/hell/ grave.

Yes, the transfiguration vision happened just as described at Matthew 17:9 it was a VISION.
Jesus said to tell the transfiguration VISION to no one at that time frame.
A VISION is Not a literal happening but was a VISION according to Matthew 17:9.

Luke 16 is a parable story just as Matthew 13:35-36 informs us Jesus would Not speak to them without a parable.
Mark agrees at Mark 4:11.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Seems to me you are also trying to say Jesus had a limited vision because Jesus based his teachings on the OT.
Jesus taught 'SLEEP' in death at John 11:11-14.
Jesus being well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures would have learned that sleeping condition from them.
So, what Jesus taught is in harmony with Solomon at Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18

Those ' disembodied spirits ' were those fallen angels who used 'materialized bodies' that were washed away in the Flood, thus placed in the darkness of tartarus - Jude 1:6; 2 Peter 2:4-5; 1 Peter 3:18-19.

Agree, Revelation was written by John, John who also penned John 11:11-14.
Since Revelation was written at the end of the first century it does Not apply to the first century.

Jesus was asleep in the grave ( Acts of the Apostles 2:27) until his God resurrected Jesus out of the grave.
Resurrection did Not happen on the day Jesus' died. Jesus went to 'hell' the day he died.
There is No life in hades/hell because biblical hell is only the temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
Those ' spirits ' were never in biblical hell. Tartarus is Not another word for hades/hell/ grave.

Yes, the transfiguration vision happened just as described at Matthew 17:9 it was a VISION.
Jesus said to tell the transfiguration VISION to no one at that time frame.
A VISION is Not a literal happening but was a VISION according to Matthew 17:9.

Luke 16 is a parable story just as Matthew 13:35-36 informs us Jesus would Not speak to them without a parable.
Mark agrees at Mark 4:11.

Jesus was not asleep in the grave as you have erroneously stated.

Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross, deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into Hades to communicate with the Gods.

1 Peter 3: 18-20; He (JESUS) was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, and in his spiritual existence He went and preached to the imprisoned spirits (The Sons of God who descended as observers in the days of Jared the father of Enoch).

These were the spirits of those who had not obeyed God in the days that Noah was building the boat..

1 Peter 4: 6; The reason why the Good News was preached also to the dead, (Can the dead hear?) to those who have been judged in their physical existence as everyone is Judged; it was preached to them (THE DEAD) so that in their spiritual existence they may LIVE as God lives.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
In answer to your first point, God wanted a new creation on the earth. Yes, He already had myriads of angels in heaven.
I don't think immortality is the same as everlasting life, if that's what you are asking. Although the immortal ones (like Jesus) cannot die.
I don't use the expression"kicked them out" of the Garden. He banished them but He gave them clothing to cover them up. It is wonderful that we have answers to these questions. I agree, not everyone is able to answer such questions. People in general are in the dark. Jesus is the light. He does not allow everyone and anyone to know him and His Father.
He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. Matthew 25:33.

From the Dictionary of all scripture and Myths.

"The Kabbala describes four Adams, the two highest of which are celestial and spiritual. The third Adam is the terrestrial Adam, made of 'dust' and placed in the Garden of Eden. This Adam was also an androgene . . . .it had, when first created, a glorious simulacrum or light body, and answers to the Yetzeeratic World". --- Ibid., p, 418.

The fourth Adam was the third Adam (With the glorious body of light) as he was after the fall, when he was clothed with animal skin, flesh, nerves, etc. This answers to the lower nephesh and guff, i.e, body, united. He has the animal power of reproduction and continuance of species and also answers to the Aseeyatic World, but in him, is some of the LIGHT of all the preceding Adams.---Ibid., p, 148.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
He said he was dead and then described what that meant. It is clear that Lazarus and the rich man were conscious in death but separated as are heaven and hell.
The problem with this comparison is that the Lazarus that Jesus raised from the "sleep" of death was a real person. The Lazarus (a common name in those days) in Jesus' parable was just a man in a story told to illustrate a situation taking place at that time. A separation of the Jews between those following the Pharisees (the rich man) and those who like the beggar (Lazarus) acknowledged Jesus as Messiah and took their place in God's affections (Abraham' bosom). This parable in included among many other parables that Jesus gave. Taken literally it is ridiculous.

There is no heaven or hell scenario in the Hebrew Scriptures and there continued to be none in the teachings of Jesus. Gehenna is not a fiery hell. It is Israel's rubbish dump where discarded things were disposed of.

Jesus was, by his own admission, "in the heart of the earth for three days and nights". His resurrection was NOT immediately after his death, but three days later. Jesus did not go to hades to preach to the spirits of the dead whilst his body was in the tomb. The spirits to whom Jesus "preached" were demon angels who were in a condition of restraint (Tartarus) since the days of Noah.

There is no such thing as spirits of the dead. The dead "know nothing". (Ezekiel 9:5, 10) There is no part of man that departs from the body at death. The soul dies (Ezekiel 18:4) The Bible does not say that souls are immortal.
 
Last edited:

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
From the Dictionary of all scripture and Myths.

"The Kabbala describes four Adams, the two highest of which are celestial and spiritual. The third Adam is the terrestrial Adam, made of 'dust' and placed in the Garden of Eden. This Adam was also an androgene . . . .it had, when first created, a glorious simulacrum or light body, and answers to the Yetzeeratic World". --- Ibid., p, 418.

The fourth Adam was the third Adam (With the glorious body of light) as he was after the fall, when he was clothed with animal skin, flesh, nerves, etc. This answers to the lower nephesh and guff, i.e, body, united. He has the animal power of reproduction and continuance of species and also answers to the Aseeyatic World, but in him, is some of the LIGHT of all the preceding Adams.---Ibid., p, 148.
The kabbala is a book of presumed fairytales. Like a story by Aesop or Hans Christian Anderson. It bears no resemblance to the Bible.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
The problem with this comparison is that the Lazarus that Jesus raised from the "sleep" of death was a real person. The Lazarus (a common name in those days) in Jesus' parable was just a man in a story told to illustrate a situation taking place at that time. A separation of the Jews between those flowing the Pharisees (the rich man) and those who like the beggar (Lazarus) acknowledged Jesus as Messiah and took their place in God's affections (Abraham' bosom). This parable in included among many other parables that Jesus gave. Taken literally it is ridiculous.

There is no heaven or hell scenario in the Hebrew Scriptures and there continued to be none in the teachings of Jesus. Gehenna is not a fiery hell. It is Israel's rubbish dump where discarded things were disposed of.

Jesus was, by his own admission, "in the heart of the earth for three days and nights". His resurrection was NOT immediately after his death, but three days later. Jesus did not go to hades to preach to the spirits of the dead whilst his body was in the tomb. The spirits to whom Jesus "preached" were demon angels who were in a condition of restraint (Tartarus) since the days of Noah.

There is no such thing as spirits of the dead. The dead "know nothing". (Ezekiel 9:5, 10) There is no part of man that departs from the body at death. The soul dies (Ezekiel 18:4) The Bible does not say that souls are immortal.

Let me here repeat for your benefit.

I find the satirical writings of Solomon, which are found in the Book of Ecclesiastes really interesting, don’t you?

From the book of Sirach, which is to be found in the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, coupled together with the book of Job, a number of the Psalms, Parables, Ecclesiastes, and the Wisdom of Solomon, all belong to the Hogmah or Wisdom Literature of the Hebrews, ‘Mashal’ means Similitude, parable, or proverb.----- In the book of Sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, “By thy songs, parables, dark speeches, and satires, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc.

A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off.

Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return. A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don’t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life. So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It’s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you’ll get for all your troubles.

Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of proverbs, his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of ‘Ecclesiastes without realizing that here is the satirical work of Solomon, aimed at those people of the godless religion, who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead. Poor souls, don’t they realise that what the mind believes, is what the mind receives.

Isaiah 57: 1-2; (1) Good people die, and no one understands or even cares. But when they die, no calamity can hurt them. (2) Those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death.

All must die once, then go off into judgement, where the righteous spirits are divided from the unrighteous, these find rest and are gathered to the evolving spirit of 'The Son of Man,' within the bosom of Abraham.

For just as mankind, who stands on the top rung of the ladder of evolution and is currently the Most High in the creation, had developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, so too, 'The Son of Man,' who, according to our concept of one directional linear time, is still developing within the great androgynous body of man.

Although scripture reveals that those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death as they await their resurrection, it also reveals the state of torment that awaits the wicked spirits=minds that had suffered the first death which was that of the physical wombs/bodies in which they had developed, as they await the final judgement, when they shall enter into a state of total oblivion. Only the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet suffer eternal torment as revealed in Rev 20: 10.

Revelation 21: 8; But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars ----- the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

The second death, when those minds are divided from the eternal soul/life-force, that pervades and animates all within this boundless cosmos.

Psalms 146: 4; don't put your faith in the plans of men for their plans die with them. It's hard to accomplish your plans without a physical body.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
In answer to your first point, God wanted a new creation on the earth. Yes, He already had myriads of angels in heaven.

Not many people appreciate that fact. He intended this new creation to live on earth forever, and provided the means to do so. Had our first parents remained obedient, they would still be here enjoying life with all their progeny. The whole earth would now be the paradise that God intended.

I don't think immortality is the same as everlasting life, if that's what you are asking. Although the immortal ones (like Jesus) cannot die.

Not many understand the difference. But it's a very important distinction. Was Jesus immortal when he walked the earth?

I don't use the expression"kicked them out" of the Garden. He banished them

Perhaps "evicted" would have been a more appropriate word?

but He gave them clothing to cover them up.

Yes, because the earth would now produce 'thorns and thistles', the choice of clothing God made for them would cover their nakedness (now a cause of shame to them) and protect them from a somewhat hostile environment outside of the garden.

It is wonderful that we have answers to these questions. I agree, not everyone is ableto answer such questions. People in general are in the dark. Jesus is the light. He does not allow everyone and anyone to know him and His Father.

This is true. It's a shame that these very important details are missing from church education in most cases. Not even many clergy have bothered to educate themselves beyond church doctrine. The details provide facts that clarify many Bible accounts and round out our understanding. It is very rewarding.

John 6:44 is proof that 'no one can come to the son without an invitation from the Father'...not everyone gets that invitation.
I love the fact that God provides the answer to all our questions if we allow his word provide those answers. I hear too many people rely on the "I think" method. We can't get very satisfying answers that way.

He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. Matthew 25:33.

What do you see as the difference?....and according to Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23, why are some shocked to find that Jesus rejects them as ones he "never knew"?
 
Last edited:

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus was not asleep in the grave as you have erroneously stated.

Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross, deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into Hades to communicate with the Gods.

1 Peter 3: 18-20; He (JESUS) was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, and in his spiritual existence He went and preached to the imprisoned spirits (The Sons of God who descended as observers in the days of Jared the father of Enoch).

These were the spirits of those who had not obeyed God in the days that Noah was building the boat..

1 Peter 4: 6; The reason why the Good News was preached also to the dead, (Can the dead hear?) to those who have been judged in their physical existence as everyone is Judged; it was preached to them (THE DEAD) so that in their spiritual existence they may LIVE as God lives.
In order to understand that, we must take into account that when Jesus spoke, some of the 'dead' were hearing his voice. Ephesians 2:1 (there were those dead in their trespasses and sins). Jesus also said the dead should bury the dead. Matthew 8:22. So after these "dead ones" put faith in the good news, they began to live spiritually.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not many people appreciate that fact. He intended this new creation to live on earth forever on earth and provided the means to do so. Had our first parents remained obedient, they would still be here enjoying life with all their progeny. The whole earth would now be the paradise that God intended.

Not many understand the difference. But it's a very important distinction. Was Jesus immortal when he walked the earth?

Perhaps "evicted" would have been a more appropriate word?

Yes, because the earth would now produce 'thorns and thistles', the choice of clothing God made for them would cover their nakedness (now a cause of shame to them) and protect them from a somewhat hostile environment outside of the garden.

This is true. It's a shame that these very important details are missing from church education in most cases. Not even many clergy have bothered to educate themselves beyond church doctrine. The details provide facts that clarify many Bible accounts and round out our understanding. It is very rewarding.

John 6:44 is proof that 'no one can come to the son without an invitation from the Father'...not everyone gets that invitation.
I love the fact that God provides the answer to all our questions if we allow his word provide those answers. I hear too many people rely on the "I think" method. We can't get very satisfying answers that way.

What do you see as the difference?....and according to Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23, why are some shocked to find that Jesus rejects them as ones he "never knew"?
my hmmm that's an interesting question and I'm glad you asked because it's good to go over these scriptures. Here's what he says, in part:
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’
All I can say right now is 'wow,' in response to reading it again.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
The kabbala is a book of presumed fairytales. Like a story by Aesop or Hans Christian Anderson. It bears no resemblance to the Bible.

Presumed by who?
By YOU?

365, is the number of days in a calendar year. The Lamb of God who takes on the sins of the world is to be a one year old unblemished Lamb. Enoch the anointed one, who was taken to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation at the age of 365 is the unblemished Lamb of God.

Sandalphon is an archangel in Jewish and Christian writings. Sandalphon figures prominently in the mystical literary traditions of Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, notably in the Midrash, Talmud, and Kabbalah.

Some of the earliest sources on Sandalphon refer to him as the prophet Elijah transfigured and elevated to angelic status. Other sources (mainly from the midrashic period) describe him as the "twin brother" of Metatron, whose human origin as Enoch was similar to the human origin of Sandalphon.

Sandalphron and Metatron are post human angels, Metatron is the name that was given to Enoch after he had been translated from a body of corruptible matter into a glorious body of incorruptible light, and Sandalphron, who is erroneously thought by some to be Metatron"s twin, is in fact Elijah"s angelic name after he was carried up to stand before Enoch and was also transfigured.

Metatron is also mentioned in the Pseudepigrapha, most prominently in the Hebrew Book of Enoch (also called Third Enoch), in which his grand title, "The lesser YHVH" (The Son of God) resurfaces. It is also said that Metatron. The anointed one=CHRIST, was the angel who guided Israel through the wilderness.

The great flood, in which the body of Adam (Pre-flood mankind) was submerged in water and the new man Enoch (The post-flood body of mankind arose) was, according to 1st Peter 3: 21; a symbol of Baptism. Where the old physical man Adam, is submerged and the new spiritual man Enoch/Jesus arises.

Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives are all direct genetic descendants of Enoch, the only man redeemed from the previous world as spoken of by 2nd Peter 3: 5; as they are all descendants of Enoch’s six sons, Methusulah, Rigam, Riman, Urchan, Cherminion, and Giadad.

To equate the MAN Enoch, with the glorious simulacrum at the ends of time, who Enoch had become and who dies in the process of involution for the salvation of we in the process of evolution, would be like equating mankind with the organic molecules in the primeval sludge pools of organic material of the junior earth from which mankind had evolved.

It was the glorious simulacrum, ‘The Son of Man’ at the ends of time, (Of which Enoch was the chosen cornerstone) who, unlike physical mankind did not have the powers of reproduction, who, from the ends of time, mentally descended into the day of Abraham, who chose him as his God, and in Abraham, was the living evolving spirit of Enoch as he was at that point in his evolution.

The Stone that the builders of the so called Christian church rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all.

It was to Abraham, that the MOST HIGH in the creation, [The lesser Jahweh the Son of God] said, "In blessing I will bless you and in multiplying, I will multiply you." Our Saviour who offers up his immortal body for those who believe, multiplies by releasing the spirits on which he had evolved.

From that day forward, all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin, were judged and separated from the unrighteous dead and gathered to the living evolving spirit of Enoch within the bosom of Abraham. Over they, the second death had no power.

Jesus was the compilation of all those righteous spirits over whom death had no more power. Jesus was who Enoch had become at that point in time of his evolution to become the glorious simulacrum=blue-print of the new androgynous body of light beings that evolve from mankind, who will dwell on earth among mankind.

The Book of Jubilees 4: 30; And he (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

After Enoch in his ascension to the ends of time, had been in the valley of man for three days (Three thousand years) he was reborn on earth and revealed as the man Jesus in who were the spirits of the righteous over whom death had no more power. All must die once, even the righteous, but over them, the second death has no power.

1st Peter 1: 19-21; but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

He was chosen before the creation of the world, but which world? The previous world that was destroyed by water, or this world which is destined to be destroyed by fire?

2 Peter 3: 5; "They purposely ignore the fact that long ago God gave a command, and the heavens and earth were created. The earth formed out of water and by water, and it was also by water, the water of the flood that the old world was destroyed. But the heavens and earth that now exist are being preserved by the same command of God, in order to be destroyed by fire, etc.

From the Book of Enoch the prophet 108: 11-13; “And now I will summons the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who, in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name (I Am Who I Am/JHWH,) and I will seat each one on the throne of his honour. And they shall be resplendent for times without number.”
 
Top