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Comparing Catholic Beliefs with the Teachings of Jesus in Scripture

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
There is indeed a master deceiver at work in the world, who has convinced his bride the mother church, from whose spirit=teachings the JWs and the majority of Christian denominations were spawned, that Jesus was an eternal God, who existed before the creation of the cosmos and who, some two thousand years ago, came down to earth and entered the womb of some supposed virgin and created for himself a human-like body in which he could walk the earth disguised as a descendant of Adam.

The good ol' church which was established by King Constantine, was established according to the plane of God. But, does that make it righteous?

Many were the leaders of Nations that God rose up as his rod to chastise his son "Israel," the actions of God were righteous, the actions of those leaders whose hated of Israel God used to accomplish his will, were not righteous.

Acts 2: 23; In accordance with his own plan God had already decided that Jesus would be handed over to you; and you killed him by letting sinful men crucify him. Does this mean that the act of Judas's betrayal, which was in accordance with God's plan, was a righteous act? The act according to God's plan, is justified in the end result, but does that justify the intent of Judas?

Zechariah 11: 12-17; speaks of the plan of God, to raise up a worthless shepherd, to guide his stubborn flock after they had valued him (As seen in his obedient servant Jesus, who he had filled with his spirit) at 30 pieces of silver. This worthless shepherd that God rose up to fulfil his purpose, is the church of Constantine, who, with her daughter bodies have spread their misleading teaching throughout the earth, which was the will of God, that the minds of the people should be made dull, their eyes blind, and their ears deaf to the truth, otherwise, to receive the great reward that is offered to those who are able to win the victory, they would have turned to God while still in their sins, and he would have to have forgiven them.

Christ the anointed one whose spirit filled the body of his earthly host body, “Jesus” used that body established by Constantine, to fulfil the mission that was given to him by God. Isaiah 6: 8-19; (8) Then I heard the Lord say, “Whom shall I send? Who will be our messenger?” I answered, “I will go! Send me!” (9) So the Lord told me to go and give the people this message: “No matter how much you listen, you will not understand. No matter how much you look, you will not know what is happening.” Then He said to me, “Make the minds of these people dull, their ears deaf and their eyes blind, so that they cannot see or hear or understand, If they did, they might turn to me and be healed.”

Matthew 13: 14; The reason I use parables in talking to the people, is that they will look, but will not see, and they listen, but hear not, nor understand. (14) So the prophecy of Isaiah applies to them; “This people will listen and listen, but not understand; they will look and look, but not see, because their minds are dull, and they have stopped up their ears and have closed their eyes. Otherwise, their eyes would see, their ears would hear, their minds would understand, and they would turn to me says God, and I would heal them, (While still in their sins.)

Again, the intent of the Lord is righteous, in raising up the worthless shepherd, and given them over to believe the lie, in order that only those who would endure in the truth of his word, would win the victory, while the intent of the church was to seek out and devour and become bloated on the fat of the lambs of God’s flock.

O! You shepherd of the darkness who claims God sent him out
And even though we know that’s true, that fact I wouldn’t flout
For God commanded Zechariah, “Throw my wages ‘cross the floor,
Those thirty bits of silver, for I’ll guide this flock no more
A worthless shepherd now I’ll raise to guide this stubborn flock
And he will be a useless one, of him I’ll take no stock
For he’ll not feed my little ones, nor search for them that’s lost
But he eats the meat of the fattest sheep. And their hoofs? He tears them off
That worthless shepherd, he is doomed for abandoning my flock
His power, will I destroy by war, his arm will wither dry, then drop
And his right eye will I turn Blind, that’s why he’s never seen
The passage where I speak of him, Zechariah eleven—twelve to seventeen.

Zechariah 13: 7, The Lord Almighty says, “Wake up Sword, and attack the shepherd who works for me! Kill him, etc.

All bodies must die then go off into judgment, even the religious bodies that have burned the pagans at the stake, who have murdered, how many thousands of women, who were accused by their husbands as witches, knowing that the church who forbade them to divorce their wives would burn or drown them as witches instead. And how many atrocities were perpetrated during the inquisition? There is not enough room in this entire forum to record the sins of the church of Constantine which has fulfilled the purpose for which God allowed it to be established.

But now has come the time for her to be judged, and no matter how righteous we become in the twilight of our years, no matter how repentant we are for the sins of our past, and no matter how many tears we shed in the passion of our despair, we must all pay the blood price for the mistakes of our past, even those whose are judged while alive and the elements of their physical bodies become so excited they burn up, and disappear. But it is the hope of God, that his children will hear his call and come out of her, and that only the empty shell will be destroyed.

Revelation 18: 4 to 8.

Come out of her my people, do not share in her sin.
You must not share her punishment, her judgment day has come
Her sins are piled to heaven and God recalls her evil ways,
She says I am no widow and I’ll never see the grave
Because of that in just one day disease will strike her down
Plagues and famine she’ll receive until the day she’s burned
You must pay her back two fold for all that she has done
Fill her cup as she filled yours, but make it twice as strong
For all the glory she has claimed and all her luxury
Must be repaid this very day with pain and misery.

Zechariah 11:12-13 is about Judas Iscariot, the 3rd shepherd of Zechariah 11:8. Zechariah 11:14-17, is about the 2nd staff, who would be Peter, and who would leave the flock (Zechariah 11:17), as shown in Acts 15:7, whereas supposedly Peter leaves the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 10:6). You might consider finding a better translation. The "worthless shepherd", Peter, is along with Paul, the staff "Favor", the two shepherds to "pasture" the "flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7). Judas, the 3rd shepherd, was to be annihilated along with the other two, in one month/generation.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Zechariah 11:12-13 is about Judas Iscariot, the 3rd shepherd of Zechariah 11:8. Zechariah 11:14-17, is about the 2nd staff, who would be Peter, and who would leave the flock (Zechariah 11:17), as shown in Acts 15:7, whereas supposedly Peter leaves the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 10:6). You might consider finding a better translation. The "worthless shepherd", Peter, is along with Paul, the staff "Favor", the two shepherds to "pasture" the "flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7). Judas, the 3rd shepherd, was to be annihilated along with the other two, in one month/generation.

The master deceiver has certainly got you by the you know whats. Your detestable hatred of Peter and Paul, who were chosen by Jesus, along with Judas, who is the only one of the 12 who was destined to be lost, has blinded you to the truths as revealed in the scriptures.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
There is indeed a master deceiver at work in the world, who has convinced his bride the mother church, from whose spirit=teachings the JWs and the majority of Christian denominations were spawned, that Jesus was an eternal God, who existed before the creation of the cosmos and who, some two thousand years ago, came down to earth and entered the womb of some supposed virgin and created for himself a human-like body in which he could walk the earth disguised as a descendant of Adam.

The good ol' church which was established by King Constantine, was established according to the plane of God. But, does that make it righteous?

Many were the leaders of Nations that God rose up as his rod to chastise his son "Israel," the actions of God were righteous, the actions of those leaders whose hated of Israel God used to accomplish his will, were not righteous.

Acts 2: 23; In accordance with his own plan God had already decided that Jesus would be handed over to you; and you killed him by letting sinful men crucify him. Does this mean that the act of Judas's betrayal, which was in accordance with God's plan, was a righteous act? The act according to God's plan, is justified in the end result, but does that justify the intent of Judas?

Zechariah 11: 12-17; speaks of the plan of God, to raise up a worthless shepherd, to guide his stubborn flock after they had valued him (As seen in his obedient servant Jesus, who he had filled with his spirit) at 30 pieces of silver. This worthless shepherd that God rose up to fulfil his purpose, is the church of Constantine, who, with her daughter bodies have spread their misleading teaching throughout the earth, which was the will of God, that the minds of the people should be made dull, their eyes blind, and their ears deaf to the truth, otherwise, to receive the great reward that is offered to those who are able to win the victory, they would have turned to God while still in their sins, and he would have to have forgiven them.

Christ the anointed one whose spirit filled the body of his earthly host body, “Jesus” used that body established by Constantine, to fulfil the mission that was given to him by God. Isaiah 6: 8-19; (8) Then I heard the Lord say, “Whom shall I send? Who will be our messenger?” I answered, “I will go! Send me!” (9) So the Lord told me to go and give the people this message: “No matter how much you listen, you will not understand. No matter how much you look, you will not know what is happening.” Then He said to me, “Make the minds of these people dull, their ears deaf and their eyes blind, so that they cannot see or hear or understand, If they did, they might turn to me and be healed.”

Matthew 13: 14; The reason I use parables in talking to the people, is that they will look, but will not see, and they listen, but hear not, nor understand. (14) So the prophecy of Isaiah applies to them; “This people will listen and listen, but not understand; they will look and look, but not see, because their minds are dull, and they have stopped up their ears and have closed their eyes. Otherwise, their eyes would see, their ears would hear, their minds would understand, and they would turn to me says God, and I would heal them, (While still in their sins.)

Again, the intent of the Lord is righteous, in raising up the worthless shepherd, and given them over to believe the lie, in order that only those who would endure in the truth of his word, would win the victory, while the intent of the church was to seek out and devour and become bloated on the fat of the lambs of God’s flock.

O! You shepherd of the darkness who claims God sent him out
And even though we know that’s true, that fact I wouldn’t flout
For God commanded Zechariah, “Throw my wages ‘cross the floor,
Those thirty bits of silver, for I’ll guide this flock no more
A worthless shepherd now I’ll raise to guide this stubborn flock
And he will be a useless one, of him I’ll take no stock
For he’ll not feed my little ones, nor search for them that’s lost
But he eats the meat of the fattest sheep. And their hoofs? He tears them off
That worthless shepherd, he is doomed for abandoning my flock
His power, will I destroy by war, his arm will wither dry, then drop
And his right eye will I turn Blind, that’s why he’s never seen
The passage where I speak of him, Zechariah eleven—twelve to seventeen.

Zechariah 13: 7, The Lord Almighty says, “Wake up Sword, and attack the shepherd who works for me! Kill him, etc.

All bodies must die then go off into judgment, even the religious bodies that have burned the pagans at the stake, who have murdered, how many thousands of women, who were accused by their husbands as witches, knowing that the church who forbade them to divorce their wives would burn or drown them as witches instead. And how many atrocities were perpetrated during the inquisition? There is not enough room in this entire forum to record the sins of the church of Constantine which has fulfilled the purpose for which God allowed it to be established.

But now has come the time for her to be judged, and no matter how righteous we become in the twilight of our years, no matter how repentant we are for the sins of our past, and no matter how many tears we shed in the passion of our despair, we must all pay the blood price for the mistakes of our past, even those whose are judged while alive and the elements of their physical bodies become so excited they burn up, and disappear. But it is the hope of God, that his children will hear his call and come out of her, and that only the empty shell will be destroyed.

Revelation 18: 4 to 8.

Come out of her my people, do not share in her sin.
You must not share her punishment, her judgment day has come
Her sins are piled to heaven and God recalls her evil ways,
She says I am no widow and I’ll never see the grave
Because of that in just one day disease will strike her down
Plagues and famine she’ll receive until the day she’s burned
You must pay her back two fold for all that she has done
Fill her cup as she filled yours, but make it twice as strong
For all the glory she has claimed and all her luxury
Must be repaid this very day with pain and misery.

Zechariah 11:12-13 is about Judas Iscariot, the 3rd shepherd of Zechariah 11:8. Zechariah 11:14-17, is about the 2nd staff, who would be Peter, and who would leave the flock (Zechariah 11:17), as shown in Acts 15:7, whereas supposedly Peter leaves the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 10:6). You might consider finding a better translation. The "worthless shepherd", Peter, is along with Paul, the staff "Favor", the two shepherds to "pasture" the "flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7). Judas, the 3rd shepherd, was to be annihilated along with the other two, in one month/generation.
The master deceiver has certainly got you by the you know whats. Your detestable hatred of Peter and Paul, who were chosen by Jesus, along with Judas, who is the only one of the 12 who was destined to be lost, has blinded you to the truths as revealed in the scriptures.

Zechariah 11 is about 3 shepherds, not one (Zechariah 11:8) "Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month". Peter wasn't "lost", he was simply "sifted like wheat by Satan" (Luke 22:31).
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I would like to invite the Catholic posters here to give me their definition of each belief represented by the pictures taken from....

cec_title2.png


On the webpage of the Catholic Enquiry Centre of Australia we find the following images, representing some basic Catholic beliefs.


mary.jpg

This I assume is Mary with the child Jesus.
Who is Mary in Catholic belief? What does the Bible say about her?

baptism-small.jpg

This is infant baptism, practiced by a number of Christendom's churches.
What does the Bible say about this practice?


candle.jpg

What does the lighting of candles represent in Catholic belief?
Will I find this practice in Christian scripture?

eucharist-jpeg.jpg

The host, said to transform into the body of Christ, his actual flesh, and the wine his actual blood.
Why is it round? What does the Bible say about this?

bible-and-rosary.jpg

Rosary beads and repetitive prayers.
Is there any mention of them in the Bible?

redeemer-small.jpg

An image of Jesus on the cross, familiar in most Catholic churches.
What does the Bible say about the use of images in worship?

CallandResponse_150.jpg

This book is used to teach the basics of the Catholic faith but in the image on the front cover, we see a representation of a halo on the subject. (whom I assume is Jesus Christ)
What is the origin of the halo in Catholic art?

I would like to give Catholic posters here the opportunity to explain their beliefs before I comment further.

Over to you.

Hey Deeje, how do you know, and why are you so confident that the bible is the fulfillment of Christian beliefs?

Does the bible say it is?
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Zechariah 11:12-13 is about Judas Iscariot, the 3rd shepherd of Zechariah 11:8. Zechariah 11:14-17, is about the 2nd staff, who would be Peter, and who would leave the flock (Zechariah 11:17), as shown in Acts 15:7, whereas supposedly Peter leaves the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 10:6). You might consider finding a better translation. The "worthless shepherd", Peter, is along with Paul, the staff "Favor", the two shepherds to "pasture" the "flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7). Judas, the 3rd shepherd, was to be annihilated along with the other two, in one month/generation.


Zechariah 11 is about 3 shepherds, not one (Zechariah 11:8) "Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month". Peter wasn't "lost", he was simply "sifted like wheat by Satan" (Luke 22:31).

Are you saying that of the three that were ANNIHILATED, only one was lost? ANNIHILATE: 'To destroy completely, to wipe out, to reduce to nothingness."
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Hey Deeje, how do you know, and why are you so confident that the bible is the fulfillment of Christian beliefs?

Does the bible say it is?

Since Christ himself is the example that we are to follow, then we should see how Jesus taught.....what Jesus taught....and what kind of people became his disciples.

The apostle Peter wrote...." As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil. 17 Honour everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honour the emperor. . . . For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it you take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take it patiently, you have God’s approval. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps." (RSVCE)

What did Jesus do when he taught his disciples? He always taught from the word of God. He said in John 17:17..."Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth."

1 Peter 2:12...."Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that in case they speak against you as wrongdoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation."

So those who profess to be "Christians" cannot be such in name only....they have to adhere to God's word....follow Jesus' example, and be identified by "good conduct". Taking the history of the Roman Catholic Church into account up to the present, can you see that the church has fulfilled any of those requirements?

They have complete disregard for God's word if it gets in the way of their traditions. (Something that Jesus castigated the Pharisees for) They will choose the man-made tradition over the Bible. (Matthew 15:7-9)

Do the leaders of the church follow Jesus' example in their teaching or their institutional practices, such as forbidding priests to marry and cloistering people away with vows of silence when Jesus told his disciples to go out and preach? (Matthew 28:19-20; 2 Timothy 4:2-5)

How can they claim to love their own spiritual family when in times of war, they have killed their own brethren at the command of their governments. Can your brother in Christ ever be your enemy? And besides, we are to love our enemies...not kill them. (Matthew 5:44-45) What war have the clergy not supported?

Did Jesus wear distinctive robes identifying himself by some sort of title? Did he tell anyone to call him "Father"? (Matthew 23:9)

Is the Catholic church known for its adherents being people of fine conduct? Would there be millions of dollars being paid to child abuse victims all over the world if even the clergy were known for their good conduct? This is not to disparage the good people in the church, but it is hitting at the institution itself. Its not how it views itself, but how Christ views it that matters.

Did we read of Jesus doing or advocating any of this?

images
images
images
images
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images


It is so far removed from anything that Christ taught, but so ingrained in the Catholic population after centuries of this departure from true worship, that hardly anyone questions it. But IMO you must, in view of Matthew 7:21-23.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Since Christ himself is the example that we are to follow, then we should see how Jesus taught.....what Jesus taught....and what kind of people became his disciples.

The apostle Peter wrote...." As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil. 17 Honour everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honour the emperor. . . . For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it you take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take it patiently, you have God’s approval. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps." (RSVCE)

What did Jesus do when he taught his disciples? He always taught from the word of God. He said in John 17:17..."Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth."

1 Peter 2:12...."Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that in case they speak against you as wrongdoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation."

So those who profess to be "Christians" cannot be such in name only....they have to adhere to God's word....follow Jesus' example, and be identified by "good conduct". Taking the history of the Roman Catholic Church into account up to the present, can you see that the church has fulfilled any of those requirements?

They have complete disregard for God's word if it gets in the way of their traditions. (Something that Jesus castigated the Pharisees for) They will choose the man-made tradition over the Bible. (Matthew 15:7-9)

Do the leaders of the church follow Jesus' example in their teaching or their institutional practices, such as forbidding priests to marry and cloistering people away with vows of silence when Jesus told his disciples to go out and preach? (Matthew 28:19-20; 2 Timothy 4:2-5)

How can they claim to love their own spiritual family when in times of war, they have killed their own brethren at the command of their governments. Can your brother in Christ ever be your enemy? And besides, we are to love our enemies...not kill them. (Matthew 5:44-45) What war have the clergy not supported?

Did Jesus wear distinctive robes identifying himself by some sort of title? Did he tell anyone to call him "Father"? (Matthew 23:9)

Is the Catholic church known for its adherents being people of fine conduct? Would there be millions of dollars being paid to child abuse victims all over the world if even the clergy were known for their good conduct? This is not to disparage the good people in the church, but it is hitting at the institution itself. Its not how it views itself, but how Christ views it that matters.

Did we read of Jesus doing or advocating any of this?

images
images
images
images
images
images


It is so far removed from anything that Christ taught, but so ingrained in the Catholic population after centuries of this departure from true worship, that hardly anyone questions it. But IMO you must, in view of Matthew 7:21-23.

No, I'm serious... How do you know that the bible is the fulfillment of the Christian faith?

Please explain why oral teachings, not found in the bible, are automatically evil and not Christ-like. Where does the bible state this exactly..? word for word.

(And please refrain from using scriptures out of their original context in attempt to stretch them into teachings that are multi-meaning)

...If you cannot do it, then your entire argument holds no value.
 
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Cooky

Veteran Member
Since Christ himself is the example that we are to follow, then we should see how Jesus taught.....what Jesus taught....and what kind of people became his disciples.

The apostle Peter wrote...." As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil. 17 Honour everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honour the emperor. . . . For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it you take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take it patiently, you have God’s approval. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps." (RSVCE)

What did Jesus do when he taught his disciples? He always taught from the word of God. He said in John 17:17..."Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth."

1 Peter 2:12...."Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that in case they speak against you as wrongdoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation."

So those who profess to be "Christians" cannot be such in name only....they have to adhere to God's word....follow Jesus' example, and be identified by "good conduct". Taking the history of the Roman Catholic Church into account up to the present, can you see that the church has fulfilled any of those requirements?

They have complete disregard for God's word if it gets in the way of their traditions. (Something that Jesus castigated the Pharisees for) They will choose the man-made tradition over the Bible. (Matthew 15:7-9)

Do the leaders of the church follow Jesus' example in their teaching or their institutional practices, such as forbidding priests to marry and cloistering people away with vows of silence when Jesus told his disciples to go out and preach? (Matthew 28:19-20; 2 Timothy 4:2-5)

How can they claim to love their own spiritual family when in times of war, they have killed their own brethren at the command of their governments. Can your brother in Christ ever be your enemy? And besides, we are to love our enemies...not kill them. (Matthew 5:44-45) What war have the clergy not supported?

Did Jesus wear distinctive robes identifying himself by some sort of title? Did he tell anyone to call him "Father"? (Matthew 23:9)

Is the Catholic church known for its adherents being people of fine conduct? Would there be millions of dollars being paid to child abuse victims all over the world if even the clergy were known for their good conduct? This is not to disparage the good people in the church, but it is hitting at the institution itself. Its not how it views itself, but how Christ views it that matters.

Did we read of Jesus doing or advocating any of this?

images
images
images
images
images
images


It is so far removed from anything that Christ taught, but so ingrained in the Catholic population after centuries of this departure from true worship, that hardly anyone questions it. But IMO you must, in view of Matthew 7:21-23.

Oh Deeje, you act as though the clergy should be extra-human and incapable of sin... We're all sinners because we're all human. Even you are a sinner.

...I completely disagree with the entirety of your sentiments in this post. You really have no business trying to shame the Church unless you can demonstrate that your church members are all 100% sin free. Otherwise it's just a childs game of 'who sins worse'.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
No, I'm serious

So am I.

How do you know that the bible is the fulfillment of the Christian faith?

Because without the Bible giving us the complete story from Genesis to Revelation, we would know nothing of the Christ or his role in the redemption of mankind. He gave us all the instruction we need to fulfill our own role as his disciples. He gave us the message....the method of preaching it, and the outcome for all who respond and obey. Why do we need more? There was nothing to add. It seems as if the church did not know when to stop adding and adding.

Oral traditions crept into Judaism too....Jesus left us in no doubt how he felt about those who choose tradition over God's word. (Read Matthew 23)

Please explain why oral teachings, not found in the bible, are automatically evil and not Christ-like.

If the oral teachings are not in agreement with what Jesus taught, then they are not from God. They are "evil" if they contradict the teachings of Jesus, especially if they lead people away from God, rather than to him. Satan's greatest pleasure is getting humans to disobey God's commands. It separates them from God.

Where does the bible state this exactly..? word for word.

I have provided scripture for your information. But you follow a faith that does not adhere to scripture anyway, so what does it matter what the Bible says?
The church is not God, nor is the Bible a product of the Catholic church. Not a word in it was written by a Catholic. God can use even his enemies to accomplish his will.

(And please refrain from using scriptures out of their original context in attempt to stretch them into teachings that are multi-meaning)

You are free to read them in context...they will still apply in principle as all scripture does.

Can you respond to any of those scriptures to defend your church? How does the context make any difference?
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Oh Deeje, you act as though the clergy should be extra-human and incapable of sin... We're all sinners because we're all human. Even you are a sinner.

When did I say we were perfect? The "clergy" are doubly accountable because they are teachers who will render an account. (Hebrews 13:17)
Incidentally, there were no clergy in first century Christianity. No priests.

...I completely disagree with the entirety of your sentiments in this post. You really have no business trying to shame the Church unless you can demonstrate that your church members are all 100% sin free. Otherwise it's just a childs game of 'who sins worse'.

Please just address the issues. If we don't know the "wheat" from the "weeds" then we are in big trouble.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Because without the Bible giving us the complete story from Genesis to Revelation, we would know nothing of the Christ or his role in the redemption of mankind. He gave us all the instruction we need to fulfill our own role as his disciples. He gave us the message....the method of preaching it, and the outcome for all who respond and obey.

Well that can't be true, Deeje because several hundreds of years passed before the bible was published, and generations of Christians lived out their entire lives without the scripture... And they most certainly did know things about the Christ and his role in the redemption of mankind. So you're wrong there.

Why do we need more? There was nothing to add. It seems as if the church did not know when to stop adding and adding.

Nothing was added though Deeje, things were just expanded on and clarified.

Oral traditions crept into Judaism too....Jesus left us in no doubt how he felt about those who choose tradition over God's word. (Read Matthew 23)

Please stop comparing / drawing parallels to things that are not exactly the same. This is know as "abstraction", and while it is a natural human tendency, it's not always correct. As I mentioned earlier, Christians survived for centuries without the bible, and relied solely on oral traditions.

If the oral teachings are not in agreement with what Jesus taught, then they are not from God. They are "evil" if they contradict the teachings of Jesus, especially if they lead people away from God, rather than to him. Satan's greatest pleasure is getting humans to disobey God's commands. It separates them from God.

Yes, which is why there are no Catholic teachings that contradict scripture... Nobody is obligated to genuflect or pray in front of statues. And nobody Is praying to statues. To suggest otherwise is a display of dishonesty.

I have provided scripture for your information. But you follow a faith that does not adhere to scripture anyway, so what does it matter what the Bible says?

I find that comment to be not only rude, but dishonest.

The church is not God, nor is the Bible a product of the Catholic church. Not a word in it was written by a Catholic. God can use even his enemies to accomplish his will.

Yes, the bible actually was written by Catholics. Later, those writings were sifted through, and compiled by Roman Catholic clergymen. :)

You are free to read them in context...they will still apply in principle as all scripture does.
Then please do show me the scripture that explains that the bible is the sole source of Christian teaching.

Can you respond to any of those scriptures to defend your church? How does the context make any difference?

Which scriptures are you asking about?
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
When did I say we were perfect? The "clergy" are doubly accountable because they are teachers who will render an account. (Hebrews 13:17)

But we were talking about sin. And now you cite a verse based on obeying those who rule over you. You're way out of context, seeming to attempt to use scripture to fit your agenda.

Incidentally, there were no clergy in first century Christianity. No priests.

If there were no priests in the first century, then why did Jesus choose 12 apostles? Why didn't he just make all of his followers apostles?

Also, how do you explain Hebrews 4:14-10:18, where scripture calls Jesus "High Priest"?
20 Bible verses about Christ, The High Priest

Also how do you explain Peter the Apostle acting as bishop, deciding on how the Law of Moses should be applied, and whether or not uncircumsized men could be baptized and welcomed into the Church?
Council of Jerusalem - Wikipedia


Please just address the issues. If we don't know the "wheat" from the "weeds" then we are in big trouble.

Address what issues? That men are all sinners?

...And with figuring out the wheat from the weeds? I fear you are in very serious trouble if you're claiming the Catholic Church as being the weeds. Because I could also say that JW lacks in charity, where a JW would watch a man starve to death naked, and only hand him a pamphlet on the good news as he dies.

Watchtower Quotes Regarding Donating to Charity

"Witnesses are discouraged from giving to charitable organisations"

"Like the neighborly Samaritan in Jesus’ illustration, we want to help suffering people, including those who are not Witnesses. (Luke 10:33-37) The best way to do so is by sharing the good news with them. “It is important to make clear right away that we are Jehovah’s Witnesses and that our primary mission is to help them spiritually, not materially,”
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Are you saying that of the three that were ANNIHILATED, only one was lost? ANNIHILATE: 'To destroy completely, to wipe out, to reduce to nothingness."

Judas was annihilated the same as Peter and Paul. They all died and were supposedly buried, or thrown into Sheol. Different translations use different verbs. "annihilate", "got rid of", "destroyed". To fit in with Isaiah 22:18, with respect to Peter, you could use "cast into a vast country; there you will die".
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
When did I say we were perfect? The "clergy" are doubly accountable because they are teachers who will render an account. (Hebrews 13:17)
Incidentally, there were no clergy in first century Christianity. No priests.

Please just address the issues. If we don't know the "wheat" from the "weeds" then we are in big trouble.

The "wheat", the righteous (Matthew 13:49), and the "tares", the "wicked"/"lawless", will be distinguished "on the day that I prepare my own possession" (Malachi 3:18). That sparing is yet future.(Malachi 3:17). And yes, the tares are apparently approaching a time of trouble (Matthew 13:40).
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Judas was annihilated the same as Peter and Paul. They all died and were supposedly buried, or thrown into Sheol. Different translations use different verbs. "annihilate", "got rid of", "destroyed". To fit in with Isaiah 22:18, with respect to Peter, you could use "cast into a vast country; there you will die".

So you want your listeners to believe that Peter and Paul, who died for their faith in Jesus and his God, hated and detested the Lord? As is written in Zech 11: 8; concerning the three shepherds; GNB----I lost patience with three other shepherds who hated me, or in the RSV, who detested me.

Good luck with that one mate, the greater majority of Christians do not hate Peter and Paul as you do.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
So you want your listeners to believe that Peter and Paul, who died for their faith in Jesus and his God, hated and detested the Lord? As is written in Zech 11: 8; concerning the three shepherds; GNB----I lost patience with three other shepherds who hated me, or in the RSV, who detested me.

Good luck with that one mate, the greater majority of Christians do not hate Peter and Paul as you do.

The "greater majority of Christians", the "many" (Matthew 7:13), have built their "house"/church on the foundation of Peter and Paul. They will find that any "house" built on such a foundation of sand, will "fall". (Matthew 7:24-27). The pope, the successor of Peter, is getting ready to "fall" "in that day". (Isaiah 22:25). Peter and his successor, the pope, have not fed the sheep (Ezekiel 34:3) & (Zechariah11:16), and will be replaced and judged (Ezekiel 34:17 & 22-23).
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I understand that in order for modern sects to justify their existence they must find ways to degrade the ancient Church.

Peter and Paul were not being mentioned in the old testament book Zechariah 11:8. This is one of the worst cases of -twisting scripture to fit a narrative- that I have ever seen in my entire life.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
The "greater majority of Christians", the "many" (Matthew 7:13), have built their "house"/church on the foundation of Peter and Paul. They will find that any "house" built on such a foundation of sand, will "fall". (Matthew 7:24-27). The pope, the successor of Peter, is getting ready to "fall" "in that day". (Isaiah 22:25). Peter and his successor, the pope, have not fed the sheep (Ezekiel 34:3) & (Zechariah11:16), and will be replaced and judged (Ezekiel 34:17 & 22-23).

And you honestly believe that the pope of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, who claims to be the Shepherd of God's people, is the successor of Peter who died because of his faith in the truth of God's word, which you have abandoned, do you?

2 Peter 3: 15; Look on the Lord's patience as the opportunity he is giving you to be saved, just as our dear brother Paul wrote to you, using the wisdom that God gave him. This is what he says in all his letters when he writes on the subject. There are some difficult things in his letters, which IGNORANT AND MENTALLY UNSTABLE PEOPLE EXPLAIN FALSLY, as they do with other passages in scripture. So they bring on their own destruction.

Peter and Paul, both faithful apostles of the Lord, who are hated and despised by such ignorant and unstable people..
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
And you honestly believe that the pope of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, who claims to be the Shepherd of God's people, is the successor of Peter who died because of his faith in the truth of God's word, which you have abandoned, do you?

2 Peter 3: 15; Look on the Lord's patience as the opportunity he is giving you to be saved, just as our dear brother Paul wrote to you, using the wisdom that God gave him. This is what he says in all his letters when he writes on the subject. There are some difficult things in his letters, which IGNORANT AND MENTALLY UNSTABLE PEOPLE EXPLAIN FALSLY, as they do with other passages in scripture. So they bring on their own destruction.

Peter and Paul, both faithful apostles of the Lord, who are hated and despised by such ignorant and unstable people..

And some question who the real tares are.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
And some question who the real tares are.

The "tares" would be the "wicked"/"lawless"/sinners (Matthew 13:49), who think they are saved, and will be "Raptured", gathered up, before the sky begins to fall. The problem with that scenario, is that the "tares" are gathered up "first" and burned, and then the "wheat" is put "into my barn" (Matthew 13:30). The new "covenant", the "covenant with death", "shall be cancelled" (Isaiah 28:18), and the "tares" will be looking for a rock to hide under (Revelation 6:16).
 
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