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Does God make everything happen how he plans no matter what?

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I certainly do not think God planns or causes all the crime and hatred and war that happens in this world. All that is caused by humans who do not follow thw laws God made. But He gives us free will to do or not do what He wants. We are paying the price of not following God's plan.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So then, an all-powerful and all-knowing God could prevent cancer; there is cancer, so then, God doesn't care to cure cancer.

If I were to know how to cure cancer, but kept this knowledge to myself, that'd be immoral. Likewise, an omniscient and omnipotent God who doesn't do anything to cure cancer is immoral.

Do you know why the world is the way it is, with so many inhumane things going on? Do you know why so many die of awful diseases like cancer?
Its because God is not ruling the world.....his adversary is. (1 John 5:19) The systems that we rely on to do what they are trained to do, just don't deliver.....Not the political system, not the medical system, not the religious system......but the commercial system is delivering more than we can afford.

Do you know why that situation exists?

But your enemies' little ole' children? Really?

This again, if you think about it, isn't as bad as you assume. Why did God take the lives of all the children in the global flood? If they were raised by wicked parents, then their attitudes and behaviors may well have been reflected in their own conduct. Why would God expect Noah to have to deal with that? God gave all an opportunity to survive the flood, but no one listened. It was going to happen again...(Matthew 24:37-39) Parents are responsible for their own children.


When I hear that whole families have lost their lives in a car crash or a house fire, I am grateful that none of them will have to grieve for their parents or children. When there is a sole survivor who has to face life without their loved ones, they often wish that they would have gone with them. I don't blame them.

From God's perspective, whatever he has taken can be returned. Death is no impediment to the Creator because he can restore life as easily as he created it. No one has to be erased from the Creator's memory if he can recall all the stars by name. (Psalm 147:4) Death to God is not final.
 
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Earthling

David Henson
Foreordained is a much better translation than predetermined, though predetermined could work it could be misleading.

Greek mythology portrayed the three goddesses, the Fates, as those who spun the thread of life and determining the length of it, cut it. The Bible teaches no such thing. Though the language used in modern translations can be somewhat misleading, when looking at this difficult subject it is important that we are careful with language. For example, under the heading “God determines who is going to heaven” it is important to note that that statement is true. God does determine, or decide, who is going to heaven. It doesn’t necessarily imply that God predetermines this. There is no conflict with an accurate interpretation of scripture in the statement "God determines" whereas there would be with "God predetermines."

Acts of the apostles 13:48 (KJV) uses the term “ordained.” To be ordained in a religious sense is to officially appoint someone to a position such as Priest or Rabbi. Keep in mind that to appoint someone doesn’t in itself determine the outcome of it. It doesn’t dictate their success or failure. To ordain in a legal sense means to establish something formerly as by law. Again, this doesn’t dictate success or failure. The law ordained isn’t necessarily obeyed or followed.

In an attempt to get a better sense of what is being implied, compare the verse with other translations. The NIV, YLT and ESV use the term appointed. To me this is a more appropriate term. It can mean previously agreed upon, and met at the appointed time, but it can also mean decorated in the sense of being well furnished or equipped.

With all of this in mind consider the NWT, which uses the most easily understood and scripturally accurate (supported) terminology. They use the term “rightly disposed.”

So the reader has the choice of leaning towards a fate predetermined like the goddesses of Greek mythology mentioned above, which isn’t supported by scripture, or leaning, instead, to the peoples of the nations hearing the statement given at Acts of the apostles 13:47: “For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth” they would see themselves as being given the opportunity to meet this appointment quoted from Isaiah 42:6-7. The Christian era had opened the possibility of salvation to the Gentiles; the nations.

The possibility of salvation. There would be no need for repentance of the wicked, nor the need to continue in righteousness if it were all decided for each of us beforehand. (2 Peter 3:17)
The point being that God at some point knew that the Gentiles would have this opportunity but didn’t foreordain the acceptance of those Gentiles of that opportunity, the choice was up to them.

When considering Romans 8:29-30 it is apparent that it isn’t a reference to specific individuals, but rather with a class of people. Jehovah has determined that there will be a group of people - Christians - who would be justified or declared righteous rather than that specific individuals were predestined for it. This is obvious, again as with Acts of the apostles 13:48, when addressing the same group of possible candidates for this group, Peter warns of the possibility of failing. (2 Peter 1:10) If God had predestined these individuals for either failing or succeeding in being a part of this group there would be nothing they could do to change that. The possibility of failing wouldn’t be for those whom God had foreordained for that position, so that isn't the case.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think because God is all powerful the answer is yes.Just read ephesians 1:11 and see what i am talking about.
No. .. god is a slacker, only a little tiny part of a single species brain even asks such questions. It should be called the dumbest part but its named itself the higher functioning part. Ha ha ha... With No evidence... Silly little intellect.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Why does God plan to give children cancer?

I went through a period with that kind of question. I wound up believing that only the Eastern concepts of reincarnation and karma resolved the issue for me.

Along with that, there's another piece that occurs to me. Parents allow kids to run around. Sometimes they fall and injure themselves. Most parents hate to see their children in pain but realize that allowing children to explore and run around being happy means that sometimes injuries can happen. I don't call them bad parents if that happens. Because growth involves risk and good parents try to minimize risk without stunting growth.

Foreordained is a much better translation than predetermined, though predetermined could work it could be misleading.

To me, 'foreordained' and 'karma" are pretty close to being the same thing. The difference is that karma is the foreordained outcome of actions in past lives.
 

Earthling

David Henson
To me, 'foreordained' and 'karma" are pretty close to being the same thing. The difference is that karma is the foreordained outcome of actions in past lives.

Interesting. From the Biblical perspective foreordained means that God would see that it happened. He would know that it was going to happen before it did because he knew he was going to make it happen.

The common mistake there is to think that this applies to specific people. That isn't the case. It applies to a group. In other words, God would make sure that some people will do it as it is made available to them through his efforts. Who those people are remains uncertain until it happens.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Could be, maybe we choose to ask for help and those that ask get prodded towards God's final plan. Those that don't are on their own.

The end result is what? Being that of those that asked for help or do God's will see paradise. Those that don't don't.

What would we humans really know of his final plan. Maybe it is simply to separate the chaff from the wheat.
He does not give the impression that He has a final plan yet to be revealed. We know that creation of the solar system will come to an end sometime in a few million or billion or so years - I do not know how many, and then we will all perish.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I think because God is all powerful the answer is yes.Just read ephesians 1:11 and see what i am talking about.
Well and I come from a Hindu Advaita Vedanta position and also say ‘Yes’.

The entire universe is a thought/play/drama of God and the author writes the script as he chooses.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I certainly do not think God planns or causes all the crime and hatred and war that happens in this world. All that is caused by humans who do not follow thw laws God made. But He gives us free will to do or not do what He wants. We are paying the price of not following God's plan.

Isaiah 45:7
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Its because God is not ruling the world.....his adversary is.
So did God intentionally hand the world over to "his adversary" or was God unable to stop "his adversary" from taking it?

And where did this "adversary" come from?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So did God intentionally hand the world over to "his adversary" or was God unable to stop "his adversary" from taking it?

When Jesus was baptized, he retreated into the wilderness alone because the account says that "the heavens were opened up" and because Jesus was 100% human, it was only then that he was endowed with holy spirit and all memory of his past existence in heaven came flooding back. For 40 days he remained, communing with his Father, preparing for the difficult mission he was about to undertake.

When he returned, the devil took no time to begin his temptations, targeting his hunger (he had not had any food all that time, obviously physically sustained by God in some way) appealing to his ego, and testing his trust in his God. (Luke 4:1-13)

In Luke 4:5-8 we see one of the temptations was to offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for just one act of worship. He said that all authority over these kingdoms were his because they had been "delivered" to him....and he also said that 'he could give rulership to whomever he wished'. He could not offer the son of God something that was not his to give....and Jesus did not challenge his claims.

Why would God "deliver" rulership of the world over to his adversary? Because this 'pretender' had made accusations about God's sovereign right to set limits for his creation, and basically called him a liar and suggested that humans would be better off making their own decisions....that they don't need God at all. Sound familiar? Has anything changed?

So the best way for God to settle this issue once and for all, was to hand rulership of the human race over to the one they chose to obey. Satan then became the god and ruler of this world. (1 John 5:19; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Since telling the humans that they needed to abide by his commands (given only for their good) didn't prompt their obedience, then showing them what happens when he withdraws his protection and blessings from them would clearly demonstrate that they cannot exercise self determination, (whilst ignoring God's direction) without serious consequences. We are living in the outcome of that demonstration.....the world is in an awful mess, politically and socially, as well as affecting so many, mentally, emotionally and physically.....regardless of our progress in science and technology, humans cannot successfully rule themselves.

We have reached the real possibility of committing self-annihilation. I believe God will step in before we reach that situation. (Isaiah 55:11)

And where did this "adversary" come from?

According to scripture, the adversary was a beautiful angel stationed in Eden as a guardian. (Ezekiel 28:13-15) But he abused his position of trust and his free will, and plotted a way to make himself a god. He wanted worship as he demonstrated with Jesus, and humans are the only ones who can give it to him. He had already tricked two perfect humans into doing his bidding and the perfect Jesus would have been another feather in his cap. Jesus showed by his steadfast obedience that Adam and his wife had no excuse to cave.

Satan also demonstrated with Job, how malicious his intent is concerning humans. He doesn't care about their welfare, only what he can gain from exploiting their disobedience. He will make humans pay for staying faithful (the reason why the road to life is "cramped and narrow" is not because God makes it so. Matthew 7:13-14) Staying faithful in this world is hard because satan makes it so.

The only way to get what he wanted was to separate the humans from their God by tricking them into disobedience. He wasn't successful with Job and he wasn't successful with Jesus or any of the other faithful servants down through time. Will he be successful with us? Only we can answer that.

He hasn't ever changed his tactics. But how do you fight an enemy that you don't believe exists?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
When Jesus was baptized, he retreated into the wilderness alone because the account says that "the heavens were opened up" and because Jesus was 100% human, it was only then that he was endowed with holy spirit and all memory of his past existence in heaven came flooding back. For 40 days he remained, communing with his Father, preparing for the difficult mission he was about to undertake.

When he returned, the devil took no time to begin his temptations, targeting his hunger (he had not had any food all that time, obviously physically sustained by God in some way) appealing to his ego, and testing his trust in his God. (Luke 4:1-13)

In Luke 4:5-8 we see one of the temptations was to offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for just one act of worship. He said that all authority over these kingdoms were his because they had been "delivered" to him....and he also said that 'he could give rulership to whomever he wished'. He could not offer the son of God something that was not his to give....and Jesus did not challenge his claims.

Why would God "deliver" rulership of the world over to his adversary? Because this 'pretender' had made accusations about God's sovereign right to set limits for his creation, and basically called him a liar and suggested that humans would be better off making their own decisions....that they don't need God at all. Sound familiar? Has anything changed?

So the best way for God to settle this issue once and for all, was to hand rulership of the human race over to the one they chose to obey. Satan then became the god and ruler of this world. (1 John 5:19; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Since telling the humans that they needed to abide by his commands (given only for their good) didn't prompt their obedience, then showing them what happens when he withdraws his protection and blessings from them would clearly demonstrate that they cannot exercise self determination, (whilst ignoring God's direction) without serious consequences. We are living in the outcome of that demonstration.....the world is in an awful mess, politically and socially, as well as affecting so many, mentally, emotionally and physically.....regardless of our progress in science and technology, humans cannot successfully rule themselves.

We have reached the real possibility of committing self-annihilation. I believe God will step in before we reach that situation. (Isaiah 55:11)
So your answer is that God handed the world over to this "adversary" willingly?

According to scripture, the adversary was a beautiful angel stationed in Eden as a guardian. (Ezekiel 28:13-15) But he abused his position of trust and his free will, and plotted a way to make himself a god. He wanted worship as he demonstrated with Jesus, and humans are the only ones who can give it to him. He had already tricked two perfect humans into doing his bidding and the perfect Jesus would have been another feather in his cap. Jesus showed by his steadfast obedience that Adam and his wife had no excuse to cave.

Satan also demonstrated with Job, how malicious his intent is concerning humans. He doesn't care about their welfare, only what he can gain from exploiting their disobedience. He will make humans pay for staying faithful (the reason why the road to life is "cramped and narrow" is not because God makes it so. Matthew 7:13-14) Staying faithful in this world is hard because satan makes it so.

The only way to get what he wanted was to separate the humans from their God by tricking them into disobedience. He wasn't successful with Job and he wasn't successful with Jesus or any of the other faithful servants down through time. Will he be successful with us? Only we can answer that.

He hasn't ever changed his tactics. But how do you fight an enemy that you don't believe exists?
So your answer is that this "adversary" cane from God?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So your answer is that God handed the world over to this "adversary" willingly?

No. not willingly, but out of necessity. If all God did was exercise his power, and eliminate the rebels, then what was to stop another "satan" from raising the issues that the original rebel raised? Was God lying? Was he holding back something to which his children were entitled? Could humans make their own decisions and "be like God" and have things turn out well? Did they need God's guidance at all? If there was no settling of these issues, then life could never become as the Creator intended....such is the value of free will, that the Creator was determined to show the humans and his rebel spirit sons the folly of disobeying him. As our Creator he knows better than we do what is good for us and what is not....but apparently the humans and God's spirit sons had to find out the hard way.

The lesson will never be forgotten. The precedents it creates will apply for all time to come. No rebel will ever derail God's purpose again.
Free will is then retained as the gift it was meant to be.

So your answer is that this "adversary" cane from God?

The adversary was created just like all the other spirit creatures ...millions of them according to scripture. His post in the garden was one of responsibility and he abused his free will and the trust that was put in him to carry it out well. He was right there observing everything, calculating the right time to make his move.

Just as a child is not born a criminal but can choose to become one later in life, doesn't mean that his criminal activity is the parent's fault.
If he exercised his free will, then the blame rests with him to carry to responsibility for his own actions.
 
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