Is Jiva the same thing according to Ramanuja and Shankara?

shivsomashekhar said:

If the seen goes, so does the seer.

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This shows poor understanding of Advaita and technique of Neti-neti.

When all that is 'seen' is rejected, what is left behind is indeed the seer or Atman/ Self or awareness.

shivsomashekhar said:

If there is nothing to be seen, then there is no meaning to the idea of a seer. We can tap dance around this forever, but it does not change simple logic.

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You have not understood Jnana Yoga and Advaita properly.

The focus is on negation of all objects and thoughts that is impermanent and temporary till nothing remains other than the Seer or Self.

Neti neti - Wikipedia

shivsomashekhar said:

And this is why I say your idea of Advaita includes Dvaita (oneness-difference).

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This is an erroneous conclusion, as shown above.

The only Yoga that attains knowledge is truth discovery through the process of truth accommodation (satya-advaita).

shivsomashekhar said:

If the seen goes, so does the seer. If there is nothing to be seen, then there is no meaning to the idea of a seer. We can tap dance around this forever, but it does not change simple logic.

You cannot separate the two. If one goes, the other goes.

And this is why I say your idea of Advaita includes Dvaita (oneness-difference).

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No. What I wrote pertains only the first stage of neti neti.

Awareness remains since without that the oneness of seer-seen-seeing will not be discerned.

(It seems that you mix up the process, the upaya, with the truth of advaita).

atanu said:

No. What I wrote pertains only the first stage of neti neti.

Awareness remains since without that the oneness of seer-seen-seeing will not be discerned.

(It seems that you mix up the process, the upaya, with the truth of advaita).

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Can you explain the significance of neti neti?

Shantanu said:

Can you explain the significance of neti neti?

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The significance of neti neti (not this, not this) is that it is a process of negation where one realizes what one is not, removing everything that is not the Atman, facilitating in the realization of one's true nature.

The article linked in post #122 explains it quite well. There is actually a section entitled "Significance of neti neti."

SalixIncendium said:

The significance of neti neti (not this, not this) is that it is a process of negation where one realizes what one is not, removing everything that is not the Atman, facilitating in the realization of one's true nature.

The article linked in post #122 explains it quite well. There is actually a section entitled "Significance of neti neti."

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Thank you Salix: that is indeed profound.

atanu said:

If one pursues the Seer-Seen discrimination till the end, one finds that any 'seen' object is not the 'seer'. Body-Mind, wherein physical or mental actions occur, are the 'seen' and not the 'seer'. After discarding all objects that can be pointed as 'this' or 'that' or 'it', as the 'seen' (object), what remains is the 'Seer' -- the Atman.

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Yes, the indriya called eye is not the real seer. Even a blind man can be aware of its surroundings. This awareness comes from a higher being.
Even the mind is not the real seer, since the mind's activities, both in waking and dream state are observed by a higher being.
And even when the mind is blank in deep sleep, such a blank state is observed by a higher being known as Brahman who is the real seer.

So, Brahman after manifesting as the jiva / sookshma sharira, IT observes all the thoughts, feelings and actions of that jiva.
In other words, Brahman reflects on the the reflecting medium called - (jiva/sookshma sharira),and that's how IT observes not only the individual's thoughts or actions but even the world around him, through the mind & eyes of the individual.
This is how Brahman observes everything from an individual POV, by manifesting as an individual.
Till here i have no confusion.

Now comes the important part. Let's forget about jivas for a moment. Lets focus on other things.
We know Brahman is present everywhere. So, what about the Brahman/Atman present in the walls, chairs, tables, air, rivers, outer space, galaxies etc.
Can Brahman witness the totality of all existence from a non jiva POV?

Like for example, can Brahman/Atman witness the whole creation from a chair or outer space?
I'm asking this because a chair or outer space doesn't have a reflecting medium like sookshma sharira and therefore there's no sentiency in a chair. So can Brahman/Atman witness everything by being present in a chair?

Another example would be, after cosmic annihilation, when all jivas (individuals in the form of sookshma/karana sharira) lie dormant in the womb of avyakta prakriti, then can Brahman/Atman witness the nothingness (non manifested state of the universe)?

Well, your confusion begins with the acceptance of the existence of 'higher being', though in Hinduism, you have all the authority to hold a personal view. Sukshma or Sthoola, all things in 'Advaita' are Brahman. When you think as a layman with all your biases, you are not the 'seer', but when you abandon your biases, you are Brahman and you are the seer. You are not attached to what you see. The Brahman in walls, chairs, tables, air, rivers, outer space, galaxies, does not see it as a human would see. It would see by the four fundamental forces of nature and gravity. What need Brahman would have for a chair or a throne when Brahman itself is the chair and the throne. That is anthropomorphism. 'Avyakta Prakriti' is the great void. All what we observe arises out of that void and subsides in it too. Brahman is the 'Vyakta' as well as the 'Avyakta'. IMHO and I think in the opinion of 'Advaita' acharyas.

Greg Levenski said:

Yes, the indriya called eye is not the real seer. Even a blind man can be aware of its surroundings. This awareness comes from a higher being.
Even the mind is not the real seer, since the mind's activities, both in waking and dream state are observed by a higher being.
And even when the mind is blank in deep sleep, such a blank state is observed by a higher being known as Brahman who is the real seer.

So, Brahman after manifesting as the jiva / sookshma sharira, IT observes all the thoughts, feelings and actions of that jiva.
In other words, Brahman reflects on the the reflecting medium called - (jiva/sookshma sharira),and that's how IT observes not only the individual's thoughts or actions but even the world around him, through the mind & eyes of the individual.
This is how Brahman observes everything from an individual POV, by manifesting as an individual.
Till here i have no confusion.

Now comes the important part. Let's forget about jivas for a moment. Lets focus on other things.
We know Brahman is present everywhere. So, what about the Brahman/Atman present in the walls, chairs, tables, air, rivers, outer space, galaxies etc.
Can Brahman witness the totality of all existence from a non jiva POV?

Like for example, can Brahman/Atman witness the whole creation from a chair or outer space?
I'm asking this because a chair or outer space doesn't have a reflecting medium like sookshma sharira and therefore there's no sentiency in a chair. So can Brahman/Atman witness everything by being present in a chair?

Another example would be, after cosmic annihilation, when all jivas (individuals in the form of sookshma/karana sharira) lie dormant in the womb of avyakta prakriti, then can Brahman/Atman witness the nothingness (non manifested state of the universe)?

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Greg:

I spent the last 40 years studying God through a process of truth discovery and truth accommodation (satya-advaita). It was an experimental scientific theory of mine employed for truth seeking and that included the investigation of God. It is failsafe method of knowing the truth about the likes and dislikes of God because the process takes one slowly and steadily along a truth path whereby the neti-neti Hindu phenomenon of discovering what the essence of man (namely the Atman) is really like and this leads to becoming the Atman oneself through truth accommodation - I use the word Atman in the conventional sense for the common man. In actual fact one discovers Paramatman which is activated by one surrendering to the Supreme Being and which is dormant in all beings. When one has surrendered one then becomes Paramatman wherein one is perfect God oneself. So you know what God is like because I know myself through swadhaya (self examination). That is why I say I am God living a human life. There may be others who have experienced this in totality, or there may be none.

Greg Levenski said:

Now comes the important part. Let's forget about jivas for a moment. Lets focus on other things.
We know Brahman is present everywhere. So, what about the Brahman/Atman present in the walls, chairs, tables, air, rivers, outer space, galaxies etc.
Can Brahman witness the totality of all existence from a non jiva POV?

Like for example, can Brahman/Atman witness the whole creation from a chair or outer space?
I'm asking this because a chair or outer space doesn't have a reflecting medium like sookshma sharira and therefore there's no sentiency in a chair. So can Brahman/Atman witness everything by being present in a chair?

Another example would be, after cosmic annihilation, when all jivas (individuals in the form of sookshma/karana sharira) lie dormant in the womb of avyakta prakriti, then can Brahman/Atman witness the nothingness (non manifested state of the universe)?

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Brahman is pure consciousness, from which all energies and material objects manifest, and hence it is omnipresent and all pervading. So it obviously is conscious of everything , including the grosser aspects, though at an impersonal level without any cravings and aversions.

An enlightened master told me that after enlightenment, he could perceive a singurality of consciousness pervading everything at the fundamental level, though it is not discernible for most with human sensory organs.
Gary Weber has also stated the same.

Greg Levenski said:

Another example would be, after cosmic annihilation, when all jivas (individuals in the form of sookshma/karana sharira) lie dormant in the womb of avyakta prakriti, then can Brahman/Atman witness the nothingness (non manifested state of the universe)?

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Same as above. Creation, maintenance and destruction are aspects of Prakriti, and Nirguna Brahman as pure consciousness is conscious of everything, at an impersonal level.

Any anomalies that arise in the creation challenging the natural order or rta is handled by Saguna Brahman at a personal level.

So it obviously is conscious of everything , including the grosser aspects, though at an impersonal level

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You know there's a saying, that if you really want something, then you must let the universe know about it and the universe will provide you with that thing, may it be a happy marriage, or a luxury car.
And since you said that Brahman is conscious of everything and witnesses everything, do you think that we can pray to Nirakara brahman or universe, and ask for things that we really want to have.
I know Nirakara Nirguna should be realized via meditation, and not to be prayed but many people actually cry out to the universe and ask for material comfort and stuff like that, which i find very amusing, since the Nirakara Nirguna is impersonal and non-immanent. Even the God of Bible is nirakara but at least he's personal, as in interacting almost like a human being with the jews. What do you think of that?

Oh, and I came across a few more terms while i was studying hinduism and i think they're part of Samkhya. I'm not sure.
Terms like mahat tattva, aham tattva, parahanta, cosmic ego, cosmic mind etc.
Can you please explain them to me.
Do you think the universal spirit Brahman/Atman, uses this cosmic mind for cognition and also for witnessing. If not, then what is the job of this cosmic mind and cosmic ego?

If you ask me, then Brahman just exists and does nothing at all other than that, and its existence is sufficient to create all illusions of the universe.

Greg Levenski said:

And since you said that Brahman is conscious of everything and witnesses everything, do you think that we can pray to Nirakara brahman or universe, and ask for things that we really want to have.
I know Nirakara Nirguna should be realized via meditation, and not to be prayed but many people actually cry out to the universe and ask for material comfort and stuff like that, which i find very amusing, since the Nirakara Nirguna is impersonal and non-immanent. Even the God of Bible is nirakara but at least he's personal, as in interacting almost like a human being with the jews. What do you think of that?

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Brahman' IS Brahman' - both sAkAr and nirAkAr at once, but also saguNa (for devotees) and nirguNa (for Itself), and cannot be compartmentalized into personal and impersonal. To me Brahman' is a Whole-Being , very very Dear -- similar to what you have described as God --- because of the experience that Brahman' has given over years - one of which is to a) associate b) and finally show and prove aham BrahmAsmi both sAkArly (svarUp) and nirAkArly. Through direct communication, dreams, events, scripture, books, articles, ... whatever it may be.

You may not pray or ask, but Brahman' catches and watches attempts to cross the mountain, and research to find and figure things out. e.g. "This can't be it. There has to be a solution to this.... Something is missing...."
Within no time, you are given pointers, and the knowledge comes flowing , the jigsaw puzzle fits hand-in-glove. This has happened many times over the years.
One simple way to look at it is that the devas within Brahman are watching and they take care of you. However, even as "One God and other gods" "Shiva and Shakti" "My IshTadev and others" they are not really many, although they may give you darshan as different entities. They are different aspects of Brahman'

Finally Brahman' sees to it that you are in buddhi yogam (on track -- teshAm satat yuktAnaM bhajatAM preetipUrvakam dadhAmi buddhi yogam yam yena mAm upayanti te -- I give one-pointed-ness to those who turn to Me in devotion, are in Yog with Me. says KRshNa in BG 10.10). Not only this , your "uttardAitva" or calling or goal becomes clearer (one-pointed).

Regarding saguN-sAkAr prayer : Whichever form of god you seek help from will help you, including forms outside your religion -- they are all within Brahman' - but we must keep in mind what KRshNa says about 'anya devatA' (gods).
Whichever devata you worship, I steady your faith in them, and what appears to you to be gifts from them is actually given by Me, but it is 'avidhipUrvakam' (not the right way) to worship them [i.e. anything which is not really Me - i.e. Brahman' ]
Further, KRshNa says, worshipers of anya devata reach them (from where they may have to come back into the world), and My devotee reaches Me (and no one returns back from My abode/state)
- paraphrased

Oneness with Brahman' --- It has to be actually experienced. To feel Brahman', the same Consciousness, being the same Being.

Oh, and I came across a few more terms while i was studying hinduism and i think they're part of Samkhya. I'm not sure.
Terms like mahat tattva, aham tattva, parahanta, cosmic ego, cosmic mind etc.
Can you please explain them to me.
Do you think the universal spirit Brahman/Atman, uses this cosmic mind for cognition and also for witnessing. If not, then what is the job of this cosmic mind and cosmic ego?

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tattva : principle
mahat : primordial pre-material state
aham : I

Parahanta = the Supreme "I" of Ishwar, in other words the same Parameshwar
whereas
ahaMtA = egocentric thought (ahaMtA and mamatA - myness, My x my y my z)
Cosmic ego = saMkarshaN = collective I of Ishwar
Cosmic Mind = Mind of Ishwar, Parameshwar, God

Another clue to the sAkAr-nirAkAr is the correlation between microcosm (pinDanDa - individual body) and macrocosm (brahmAnDa - universe). The universe is within you the microcosm, including the dev-devtA.

ameyAtmA said:

Another clue to the sAkAr-nirAkAr is the correlation between microcosm (pinDanDa - individual body) and macrocosm (brahmAnDa - universe). The universe is within you the microcosm, including the dev-devtA.

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Thanks AmeyAtmA :=) Can you explain me what advaitins exactly mean by embodied or embodied self?

Any form, whatever you see, is embodied, whether human, animal, vegetation, non-living things, water, air, all without exception.

Aupmanyav said:

Any form, whatever you see, is embodied, whether human, animal, vegettion, non-living things, water, air, all without exception.

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And that includes the subtle body as well, right?
I mean the subtle body too is matter (subtle matter).
When authors or swamis say that the embodied self travels, they must be referring to the subtle/causal body.

Subtle body, Subtle matter! No, Advaita does not understand this.
When they say 'it travels', Advaita understands it as 'It transforms'.
Advaita is a very clear cut simple philosophy. No hocus-pokus.

Aupmanyav said:

Subtle body, Subtle matter! No, Advaita does not understand this.
When they say 'it travels', Advaita understands it as 'It transforms'.
Advaita is a very clear cut simple philosophy. No hocus-pokus.

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Hmm i think i'll wait for ameyAtma, ajay0, or atanu's answers on this matter, whether the subtle body is the embodied self or not.
The subtle body is a real thing. And not some mumbo jumbo stuff. The taittriya and mandukya upanishad clearly speaks of the subtle body and it's features, like jnanendrias, 5 pranas, karmendrias, buddhi, ahamkar etc. Here Swami Krishnananda explains it beautifully The Mandukya Upanishad by Swami Krishnananda

Greg Levenski said:

Thanks AmeyAtmA :=) Can you explain me what advaitins exactly mean by embodied or embodied self?

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The embodied Self is the living Jivatman.



Upasni Maharaj on the Jivatman...

There is Atma in everybody. This Atma, enveloped in desires, is called Jivatma. It is the Jivatma that remains conscious of and about the actions, the pleasures and the pain. It is the Jivatma, with the help of the mind, the reasoning and the gross body, that does the various actions, and becomes the receiver of the fruits thereof - the pleasures and pain. It is the Jivatma that calls himself the 'Doer' of all the good and bad actions. It is the Jivatma that gets everything done through his servant - the body and mind - and enjoys or suffers the pleasures and pain himself. Such a Jiva is a Rajoguni Jiva. - Upasni Maharaj


For more info...

The Actor (Advaita Vedanta/Nondualism Only)

Greg Levenski said:

Hmm i think i'll wait for ameyAtma, ajay0, or atanu's answers on this matter, whether the subtle body is the embodied self or not.
The subtle body is a real thing. And not some mumbo jumbo stuff. The taittriya and mandukya upanishad clearly speaks of the subtle body and it's features, like jnanendrias, 5 pranas, karmendrias, buddhi, ahamkar etc. Here Swami Krishnananda explains it beautifully The Mandukya Upanishad by Swami Krishnananda

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The subtle body, and the causal body it contains, are part of the gross living body or Jivatman.