metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Generally speaking, no, since they also refer to them as part of "Christendom", not Christianity, therefore are a part of the "apostasy", whereas the JW's are the only true believers in Christianity.
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The Miracle of Water.
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
Is that what you imagine I am doing? LOL...I like the imagery.
My intentions are not directed towards those who can't see what is obvious to us. It is to help honest-hearted people to see that this is not a black and white, either/or position. We can see where science can demonstrate many wonderful things, but we can also see the logic of an Intelligent Designer where the complexity of the natural world is concerned. Relying on flukes and unplanned mutations to explain all that diversity is not really a scientific approach...is it?
Is "close enough" really what you want to bet your life on? That is what we see as the major dilemma in this argument. The Creator is "MY" closest degree of certainty, considering that science's evidence is anything but objective. Did they tell you it was?...and you believed them?
You see what you said here? You have virtually replaced God with science. Instead of God, Science becomes the dictator of all thought processes. It is your only reality...but it has no proof for what it claims. How does that place you on a higher platform to us? Its one belief system against another.
The "burden of proof" is of course, not applicable in this argument simply because there is no "proof" that either side can furnish to convince the other. So we could be making life altering decisions about this issue....whether we believe we are, or not.
Oh dear....who said that life in itself has no meaning or purpose for the atheist? Many have contributed so much to our understanding of so many things and we are grateful for their contribution when we see the benefits of what many in various branches of science have achieved...but equally we have suffered at the hands of those who took their own wants and needs and intelligence and used them to deliberately harm others. The scales are not exactly balanced, if you ask me.
Atheists have no life beyond this one. What if this life has been a terrible disappointment? Perhaps you were born with a severe disability? Or illness took your life too early? Or your own choices had led you to mess everything up? Wouldn't you want the opportunity to get it right? The Bible says we can get that opportunity. Its conditional, but so worth it.
We are not animals...who told you we were? There are no "animals" on the planet who possess the abilities and intellect that we have. Animals do not deliberately poison their own environment, nor do they deliberately do harm unless provoked.
Animals do not compose music, poetry, theater or art. Only humans display a need for planned creativity. We are nothing like animals.
Purpose is what we all need to justify our existence. Its what drives humans to explore their world....to understand it better, and to find their place in it.
No, the Creator provides us with information that helps us to establish what our purpose here really is. I find the whole story rather compelling....you should read the book.....it's better than the movie.
As the story is told, the human race was hijacked by a pretender who conned our first parents out of everlasting life in paradise. (The one we have always wanted) The pretender said he would be a better god and ruler, and that humans would be so much better off making their own decisions about everything.....so the Creator is allowing him to prove himself. He is allowing all of us to pick which god appeals to us......since we all have one...even those who think they don't.
The state of the world is proving every day how bad we are at determining and planning our own future. We apparently have to find this out the hard way. Experience is the better teacher after all.
Telling us didn't help...so showing us is obviously more 'educational'. That is logical.
LOL....you can't even see how that applies to yourselves. You have "beliefs" that you have to accommodate too. It never occurs to you, such is the success of the con job and who we believe is behind it. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
The "story" is a very satisfying way of explaining our predicament. (the human condition)
There were no children in Eden.
I see science trying their best to maintain their credibility when the foundations of their belief system are exposed as MIA. Insults and insinuations about intelligence and education always follow. (believers being equated with children and peasant farmers) If you need to attack in such a childish way, then it means you have no real defense.
BTW, since you mentioned all of those things, (things that are the driving force behind our human condition) its funny how the video you posted was simply a valiant attempt to explain away why we humans are 'spiritual' beings by nature. Animals are not spiritual....only we are. Only we care about a purpose in life, and only we have an inbuilt need to worship a higher power. Its is strange that these needs had to 'evolve' in the first place, don't you think? It only works if evolution is true.
Animals, unless raised with human contact, have a natural fear of us. What gave them that fear? How is it that animals who are natural enemies in the wild can become the best of friends when hand raised together? Natural instincts can be overcome if the right circumstances are provided. We can be talked into...or out of....anything if the right words or illustrations are used. We just have to be careful whose words and illustrations we accept.
I have never been cornered by science.....they have nothing with which to back me into a corner. I have been debating this topic for decades and I have never been threatened by science once. Are you threatened and backed into a corner? Are you not digging your heels in?
I have as much reason and logic for my "beliefs" as you do for yours.Again, this made me laugh out loud.....my mind has never been averse to scientific reasoning because I always believe what I see and evaluate is true.
Macro-evolution is not provable and you know it. Science gets away without "proof" because it substitutes the word "evidence"....as if it means the same thing. People need to wake up to how science uses its language. Its terminology can be purposely, very misleading.
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Is that what you imagine I am doing? LOL...I like the imagery.
My intentions are not directed towards those who can't see what is obvious to us. It is to help honest-hearted people to see that this is not a black and white, either/or position. We can see where science can demonstrate many wonderful things, but we can also see the logic of an Intelligent Designer where the complexity of the natural world is concerned. Relying on flukes and unplanned mutations to explain all that diversity is not really a scientific approach...is it?
Is "close enough" really what you want to bet your life on? That is what we see as the major dilemma in this argument. The Creator is "MY" closest degree of certainty, considering that science's evidence is anything but objective. Did they tell you it was?...and you believed them?
You see what you said here? You have virtually replaced God with science. Instead of God, Science becomes the dictator of all thought processes. It is your only reality...but it has no proof for what it claims. How does that place you on a higher platform to us? Its one belief system against another.
The "burden of proof" is of course, not applicable in this argument simply because there is no "proof" that either side can furnish to convince the other. So we could be making life altering decisions about this issue....whether we believe we are, or not.
Oh dear....who said that life in itself has no meaning or purpose for the atheist? Many have contributed so much to our understanding of so many things and we are grateful for their contribution when we see the benefits of what many in various branches of science have achieved...but equally we have suffered at the hands of those who took their own wants and needs and intelligence and used them to deliberately harm others. The scales are not exactly balanced, if you ask me.
Atheists have no life beyond this one. What if this life has been a terrible disappointment? Perhaps you were born with a severe disability? Or illness took your life too early? Or your own choices had led you to mess everything up? Wouldn't you want the opportunity to get it right? The Bible says we can get that opportunity. Its conditional, but so worth it.
We are not animals...who told you we were? There are no "animals" on the planet who possess the abilities and intellect that we have. Animals do not deliberately poison their own environment, nor do they deliberately do harm unless provoked.
Animals do not compose music, poetry, theater or art. Only humans display a need for planned creativity. We are nothing like animals.
Purpose is what we all need to justify our existence. Its what drives humans to explore their world....to understand it better, and to find their place in it.
No, the Creator provides us with information that helps us to establish what our purpose here really is. I find the whole story rather compelling....you should read the book.....it's better than the movie.
As the story is told, the human race was hijacked by a pretender who conned our first parents out of everlasting life in paradise. (The one we have always wanted) The pretender said he would be a better god and ruler, and that humans would be so much better off making their own decisions about everything.....so the Creator is allowing him to prove himself. He is allowing all of us to pick which god appeals to us......since we all have one...even those who think they don't.
The state of the world is proving every day how bad we are at determining and planning our own future. We apparently have to find this out the hard way. Experience is the better teacher after all.
Telling us didn't help...so showing us is obviously more 'educational'. That is logical.
LOL....you can't even see how that applies to yourselves. You have "beliefs" that you have to accommodate too. It never occurs to you, such is the success of the con job and who we believe is behind it. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
The "story" is a very satisfying way of explaining our predicament. (the human condition)
There were no children in Eden.
I see science trying their best to maintain their credibility when the foundations of their belief system are exposed as MIA. Insults and insinuations about intelligence and education always follow. (believers being equated with children and peasant farmers) If you need to attack in such a childish way, then it means you have no real defense.
BTW, since you mentioned all of those things, (things that are the driving force behind our human condition) its funny how the video you posted was simply a valiant attempt to explain away why we humans are 'spiritual' beings by nature. Animals are not spiritual....only we are. Only we care about a purpose in life, and only we have an inbuilt need to worship a higher power. Its is strange that these needs had to 'evolve' in the first place, don't you think? It only works if evolution is true.
Animals, unless raised with human contact, have a natural fear of us. What gave them that fear? How is it that animals who are natural enemies in the wild can become the best of friends when hand raised together? Natural instincts can be overcome if the right circumstances are provided. We can be talked into...or out of....anything if the right words or illustrations are used. We just have to be careful whose words and illustrations we accept.
I have never been cornered by science.....they have nothing with which to back me into a corner. I have been debating this topic for decades and I have never been threatened by science once. Are you threatened and backed into a corner? Are you not digging your heels in?
Again, this made me laugh out loud.....my mind has never been averse to scientific reasoning because I always believe what I see and evaluate is true.
Macro-evolution is not provable and you know it. Science gets away without "proof" because it substitutes the word "evidence"....as if it means the same thing. People need to wake up to how science uses its language. Its terminology can be purposely, very misleading.
Here we go with the arrogance not to recognize that we are animals and interdependent on other forms of life. We are biologically animals 96% genetically identical to chimpanzees. We are the most advanced in manipulating our environment at the detriment of the environment. Not very smart are we. As for the most intelligent we do not know that answer since all of our ability of testing is either artificial or oriented to human intelligence. But from what I have learned from your posts you will not listen or even think of such concepts. Your self image is so connected with your desire to be superior to other living things to make you feel closer to a god written by a tribal group of people with minimal understanding of their world. If antiquity is the premise for authority go to the cave paintings of our distant ancestor's. This arrogance of superiority has been the downfall to mankind as we separate ourselves from the rest of life and consume it without regard to its suffering or considering that we are creating the stage for our own extinction.
Ask yourself how long you would live if there were no plants left on our earth. How superior would you be then. You should learn some humility. It would do you good and just see that our non-human relatives are all equal filling different aspects of the habitats we live in. If we do finally learn that all life is equal and important then we are doomed to disappear. Compare for instance the beaver with its activities that increase the diversity of the environment compared to humans that paves over the land were nothing lives. Which is truly superior to the world? Believe in god if you want but you need to recognize all life is important and we all share this world. Is your god so inhumane to believe it is good to dominate all other life causing our fellow creatures to suffer, starve and go extinct. That truly would be and arrogant mean god. I do not want any part of a god that condones abusive behavior to the rest of life on this planet that sees only one organism out of the rest as life as important and does not care if humans cause the extinction of all other life. What kind of god is that.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I wasn't aware that JWs had such a teaching. I wonder why for all these years being a JW they never saw the need to teach me... or perhaps i attended meetings, and spent my time thinking about the food I was going to eat when I got back home, and I didn't bother to read any of their literature. Hmmm.
No. That's not what JWs teach. However, they do teach all to use their power of reason, so that they are not swayed by every wind of teaching, and philosophy of men.
Romans 12:1, 2
1 Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. 2 And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Ephesians 4:14
So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes.
So from young to old, all are taught to think and reason.
What I find interesting is that you single out a small minority in the earth, when billions - actually billions of people do not believe in the ToE - including Atheists, and Agnostics, some of whom came to accept that the evidence is actually against the ToE, not for... and it is both sensible and reasonable to accept that the diversity of life is a product of special creation of diverse living things.
Do you have anything to say about these billions of people?
Have you given though as to how or why it is youth can stand in front of a class, not because someone holds a gun to their head, but on their own volition, and explain why the ToE is nonsense?
On the topic of nonsensical, for one to believe in evolution, they need more faith than the millions of believers combined and multiplied by 100 trillion, trillion... if that's possible.
To believe that information in cells having multiple random copying errors, and natural processes resulted in, as an example, an eye - fully equip with adjustable lens, a light-sensitive mechanism, a light-focusing mechanism, a focal point, and focuser, etc.
Furthermore, these unguided processes produced glands to clean and care for the eye.
Then these unguided processes created a lid in just the right place, to perfectly cover the eye, and aid in cleaning and protecting it.
Then, the cherry on top, or the icing on the cake - eye lashes... an added eye protection - "Keep as much dust out as possible" - in just the right place!.
Wow. Talk about planning.
Either that or natural selection is the greatest miracle worker ever.
This is what many see as nonsensical
To believe that natural unguided processes produce such purposeful design, is to deny a creator. I think it's sad that theistic evolutionist and those claiming belief in a creator, are blind to that fact.
How is it God-guided, but yet unguided? Is God's hand natural selection - which ToE believers say is unguided?
Sound more like a compromise to me, or a "limping on two opinions". 1 Kings 18:21
I was not aware that JWs use a "litmus test" You seem to know a lot about what does not go on in the JWs organization.
nPeace
Veteran Member
So you agree with me that the laws are not dependent on humans, so whether man describes them or not, they exist - Absolute, fixed, unchanged. When you say man wrote them, you obviously don't mean that they depended on man, but surely you must mean that man wrote his description of them, similar to his description of stars, etc.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Here: Jehovah's Witnesses have consistently claimed to be the only true religion.[67] Based on their interpretation of Revelation 18:2-24, Jehovah's Witnesses believe all other religions are part of "Babylon the Great", a "world empire of false religion" under the control of Satan; consequently, they refuse all ecumenical relations with other religious denominations.[68][69] -- Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs - Wikipedia
People often just tend to believe in what they've been taught to believe, plus some use their religious beliefs as a set of blinders instead of enlightenment.
To refuse to accept the a basic scientific axiom, such as the ToE, is both academic and theological blindness as I also was taught to believe in what the fundamentalist church I grew up in that also taught against the ToE. Fortunately, when I did my undergrad studies (I started out in biology) and saw much of the evidence for evolution, I left that church and eventually found another that tries at least to deal with Truth.
The ToE is based on overwhelming evidence that's based on centuries of research, which is clearly lacking with the JW's beliefs.
Who says that it is totally "unguided"? And if you believe that everything is guided by God, then how does that explain miscarriages and severe birth defects? And how about earthquakes and tsunamis the kill large numbers of people? Is God a sadist, iyo?
I tend to believe that God set things in motion but has not tried to control everything. If He had, it would be His world, not ours.
See above.
Since I have lived next to two JW families, and I not only listened to them on a great many occasions but also read much of their literature, I know where the basics of where they were coming firm. I also do study, btw, as that was my profession (i.e. education).
The Truth is not relative, so if one rejects basic scientific principals that have been as well-established as the ToE, then such a religion/denomination has to be considered bogus, imo.
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nPeace
Veteran Member
I have not denied that JW do not claim to be the only true organized group of worshipers under the leadership of Christ - the head of the Congregation.
However, you have misquoted my words - perhaps not deliberately - but I do hate when users on these forums take liberties to edit someone's quote.... to me that seems deceptive. Not saying that's the case here.
I wonder if @Rival could put this concern before the board, and perhaps make a rule against editing quotes.
I never do that. Rather, I copy the quote, and use it in my post. There I can specify what I am focusing on.
This is what I was responding to.You said:
So rather than I saying, I wasn't aware that JWs had such a teaching [that they are the one true religion].
as you took the liberty of falsifying, I was saying, I wasn't aware that JWs had such a teaching [that if one accepts the ToE then they are somehow "Godless",].
What a huge difference, but perhaps that's something you have on your chest, and you just needed to get it off somehow. So I understand. It's not something people like to hear, but we are also open to showing you why we believe it is true.
Could you imagine the apostles saying any less?
The apostle John said at 1 John 4:6, We originate with God. Whoever comes to know God listens to us; whoever does not originate with God does not listen to us. By this we distinguish the inspired statement of truth from the inspired statement of error.
Apostle Paul said at 2 Corinthians 5:20, Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.”
Contrary to popular opinion, according to scripture, all paths don't lead to God.
Sounds as though you are speaking from experience.
I mentioned Atheist and Agnostics, so that debunks your argument. It doesn't wash.
Anthony Flew was an atheist practically all his life, and there are thousands like him, who rejected the ToE, not because of some prior indoctrination, bur because of weighting the evidence, for themselves, with an open mind, and came to believe that the evidence supports special creation. He like many didn't become Christian, but they were convinced that life has an intelligent cause.
Just as I said above - self experience. Sadly, imo, the blinders appear to be still on, because not only have you not refused to let go of teachings you grew up with, but you now try to somehow fit them into what you consider as truth. So instead you seem to now try to deal with the truth, by keeping one foot in the door and the other out.
You know eventually that door has to close right? Ouch.
You are not in doubt are you?
I want to encourage you that if you want to know the answer to these questions, JWs can show you in your Bible where these answers can be gleaned.
You will also learn that JW do not believe that everything is guided by God, and many other things you apparently don't know about JWs, that you apparently have been misinformed about.
Hey look, this is great! We agree on something!
This is a good thing, I think. Like I insinuated above, a study or discussion with JWs can be very educational... in many ways.
Perhaps you can tell me what basic scientific principals those are, and in what way is the ToE a basic scientific principals?
nPeace
Veteran Member
You don't care about JW, but they care about you and other Catholics.
That's why they take the time to bring the life-saving message of God's kingdom to you.
Cooky
Veteran Member
Oh, I thought we were talking about water, and not proselytizing.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I'm confused.
How does not being an animal automatically make one think that all life is not equally important?
Are you a plant? No. You say you are an animal, yet you don't have to be a plant, in order to appreciate that all life is equally important.
So I am confused as to what this really ls about.
nPeace
Veteran Member
You thought right or course.
Since you took the time out though to mention you didn't care about JWs, I though I'd take the time to mention why we care about you.
However, it's good that you want to get the thread back on topic. I agree.
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Simple you are rejecting biology. If you cannot accept the basic biology that humans are primates and belong to the animal kingdom how can you ever accept the value of other life since you would not see yourself as a part of the living world on our planet. You have identified yourself as not belonging to one of the biological groups of organisms so you are different and not connected with the rest of the biological world. If not animal what are you since humans are animals in the animal kingdom? You must be aware of basic biology I hope.I'm confused.
How does not being an animal automatically make one think that all life is not equally important?
Are you a plant? No. You say you are an animal, yet you don't have to be a plant, in order to appreciate that all life is equally important.
So I am confused as to what this really ls about.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Our biology was written centuries ago, but guess what? You have rejected it.
Are you reconsidering your stance? It doesn't appear that way.
So may I ask, what is the problem again?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Frankly, you are being dishonest with the above as I did not in any way change what you posted, and if anyone has a doubt about that they can check back and see what you wrote and how I copied & pasted it.
That is both a foolish and an utterly contrived remark as I did no such thing. To put thoughts and words into people's mouths and minds is unethical, especially since all you would have to do is to ask me what I may believe.
I never mentioned anything about "Atheists and Agnostics" so how does that fabrication of yours supposedly debunk what I said?
I didn't grow up believing the ToE was acceptable as my previous post pointed out. Why are you fabricating this nonsense?
Maybe just read this since I simply am not going to waste any more time with someone who just fabricates things out of nothing: Evolution - Wikipedia
This is my last post with you as right after this I'm putting you permanently on my ignore list because I simply cannot understand how you can fabricate such lies with the above and then say you believe in God. Hopefully some day you'll repent of such disingenuous tactics.
Either way, take care.
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Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
I accept that I am an animal belonging to the animal kingdom just as all humans are. I may have misunderstood you but it sounds like you do not believe you are an animal. If you accept that designation then is was my misunderstanding but if you do not consider yourself an animal then I do not understand what you consider yourself to be. Certainly not plant, Protista , Fungal, bacterial or any of the other forms of life.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Okay, so I am on your ignore list, so this one is for the record.
I am actually wondering about you, and really hope you are okay, but I know our choices in life do matter - a lot.
I will ask a staff member to verify that I am not hallucinating. So @Rival could you please look at these quotes, and tell me if they are the same.
My response. (A)
A response to my response. (B)
Is the first quote in B found in A?
I don't know if it makes any difference, but does this statement sound like I am saying you said, or I said?
I mentioned Atheist and Agnostics, so that debunks your argument
That was in my response here, and quoted by the user here.
I know spirits are powerful, so I want to be sure they have not somehow taken e in a vision, and are now causing me to see what is really not there. Thanks.
Take care @metis
Don't get me wrong Wild Fox...I appreciate your view of the natural world and I share it, believe it or not.
You seem to see our superiority over other lifeforms on this planet as some sort of a deliberate threat. But the superior intellect and ability given to humans did not arise by chance. There is a reason why we were given these abilities....it was so that we could be the caretakers of this Earth as well as its zoo keepers. You are completely correct, we are doing a lousy job of looking after the earth and its inhabitants, including ourselves. But, where do you get the idea that this situation we find ourselves in is God's doing?
As the Creator, he gave rules to his intelligent creation so that free will could be exercised within the limits he set for us. The animal kingdom do not have free will, but are programmed by instinct to virtually take care of themselves for the most part. In giving humans dominion over other lifeforms, it was to be exercised with love and appreciation for all of God's creatures. It was man who stepped outside of that arrangement, declaring by his actions that he could do a better job at ruling the earth by himself...making his own decisions for his own reasons. We are living in the awful results of that. We are actually lamenting the same thing.
I'm the person who finds a spider in their house and carefully captures it and puts it outside....I do the same for a lizard or a ladybug. I recycle everything I can, and compost all my vegetable waste. I use my car as little as possible.
You are preaching to the converted. We just have different views of how it started and how its going to end.
No one is condoning abusive behavior towards other living things on this planet....when did I give you the impression that I didn't care?....or that God didn't care?
The Creator is demonstrating to humans that they are never going to be successful at ruling themselves and taking care of his creation, without his guidance and direction. He is giving the human race "enough rope" so that they will never be able to say that he didn't give them enough time or opportunity to get things right. I believe that time has just about run out.
What has man accomplished for good that isn't outweighed by evil? He has all this knowledge and technology at his disposal and yet look what he is doing to the only home we have?
If there is no God, and man continues on the way he is going, there is no hope for our survival. Already Mother Earth is groaning under the weight of man's disgracefully selfish ways. He carries on exploiting all the earth's resources without any thought of whether it will have long term effects on future generations. He leaves his mess for others to clean up whilst he lives the high life. It looks like we are close to reaching the point of no return.
Can you imagine if the money spent on killing humans and polluting the earth was spent on saving the planet and ourselves? But, you know what? Its never going to happen voluntarily....humans are too greedy to care what happens to anyone but themselves. Politicians are too busy squabbling over stupid things to make any real difference. Power has corrupted them, as it always does.
This is why God has let things go this far.....it creates lessons and precedents that will last forever. Never again will God ever have to allow humans to destroy his handiwork. He has the power to restore what he created in the first place. I have faith that he will carry out all that he said he will. Without him, we are at the mercy of the rich and greedy few. I will not let them kill my hope as I see the Bible's prophesies being fulfilled before my eyes.
Psalm 37:8-11..."Let go of anger and abandon rage; Do not become upset and turn to doing evil.
9 For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.
10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were,
And they will not be there.
11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."
This is what I look forward to.
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Well at least we are both working to protect this amazing world (or creation as you see it). No matter how we see it is both beautiful and essential for us to live on this amazing planet we call home. No matter what Faith we need to protect the life we share on this planet even though it will require sacrifice on human side to stop the continuing destruction of this precious gift we call Earth .