Really scratching my head about this one.please help.:(

9-10ths_Penguin said:

If you want a JW perspective, I'd suggest asking other JW members.

It's no skin off my nose if JW beliefs are contradictory.

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Yes, please share these contradictory doctrines.....give us an opportunity to address them....

Deeje said:

Yes, please share these contradictory doctrines.....give us an opportunity to address them....

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I wonder if Penguin ever researched anything at www.jw.org or Jehovah's Witnesses Broadcasting _______

Deeje said:

1 Corinthians 5:5...."you must hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."
As I am not comfortable examining verses out of context, I will quote the whole passage....Paul wrote.....
"Actually sexual immorality is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with* his father’s wife. 2 And are you proud of it? Should you not rather mourn, so that the man who committed this deed should be taken away from your midst? 3 Although absent in body, I am present in spirit, and I have already judged the man who has done this, as if I were actually with you. 4 When you are gathered together in the name of our Lord Jesus, and knowing that I am with you in spirit along with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you must hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."
In the Greek interlinear verse 5 says....
"hand paradidōmi this man toioutos over · ho to ho Satan Satanas for eis the destruction olethros of the ho flesh sarx, so that hina the ho spirit pneuma may be saved sōzō on en the ho Day hēmera of the ho Lord kyrios."
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 - Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament
Some translations say "his spirit" which is not what is written in the Greek. It was "the spirit" of the congregation that was to be saved by removing this man's immoral influence.
It is explained this way on www.jw.org ....
"Overseers of that congregation had not expelled this person, but Paul urged them to “hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.” They were to put him out of the Christian congregation into the world ruled by Satan the Devil and where destruction awaits. (1 John 5:19) Why take this action? As Paul said, “in order that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord,” Jesus Christ.—1 Cor. 5:3-5.
8 This man had to be disfellowshiped if the “spirit,” or spirituality of the congregation, based upon God’s Word, was to be saved. Otherwise, ‘a little leaven would ferment the whole lump,’ that is, a spiritually corrupting influence would permeate the congregation and Jehovah would cut off that congregation. Today it is just as vital that the congregation’s spirit, based on Jehovah’s inspired Word, be saved.—1 Cor. 5:6."
There is no confusion unless you read that text the wrong way. ( i.e not in accord with the teachings of the Bible as a whole.)
If you assume that man has an immortal spirit that departs from the body at death, because you were raised with this idea, then you may think that a verse such as this one is proof of the correctness of that belief. But the opposite is true. There is no verse in the whole Bible that says that the soul and the spirit are the same thing. Neither is there a single verse where the words "immortal" and "soul" ever appear together.
The Bible's teaching is clear.....man is a soul (a living breathing creature) and the "spirit" that animates him is sustained by breathing. When Adam was created, his body was brought to life when God started him breathing. When we breathe our last breath, the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4. Psalm 146:4)

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Plus, I find at Romans 6:23,7 that the price tag that sin pays is ' death ', Not death plus any post-mortem penalty.
So, No double jeopardy for the dead souls, but the resurrection hope of coming to life again.
Coming back to live life standing up again as Daniel looked forward as per Daniel 12:13.
Looked forward to resurrection when Messiah (Christ) will govern over Earth for 1,000 years .

URAVIP2ME said:

I wonder if Penguin ever researched anything at www.jw.org or Jehovah's Witnesses Broadcasting _______

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You and @Deeje sure are eager to jump to conclusions, aren't you?

You also seem to have a short memory, since the OP presented something they saw as an apparent contradiction in JW beliefs.

My point was just that I - like most other JWs - have nothing invested in ensuring that the JW religion is internally consistent, so if someone were to present an apparent contradiction in JW beliefs, my response could very well be to shrug, say "maybe it really is a contradiction," and leave it be.

The JWs seem to me to have better internal consistency than most other Christian denominations... though not perfect, since it would be impossible to be entirely consistent with something as self-contradictory as the Bible. Where the JWs tend to fall down, IMO, is with external consistency between their beliefs and reality.

... though I'm not really interested in re-hashing those inconsistencies in this thread. There's enough of that in the science vs. religion forum.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

You and @Deeje sure are eager to jump to conclusions, aren't you?

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What conclusions are we jumping to?

You also seem to have a short memory, since the OP presented something they saw as an apparent contradiction in JW beliefs.

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I thought we showed with scriptural support that there was no contradiction. In my experience, it is Christendom's interpretations that contradict the Bible. I grew up with those inconsistencies and it drove me nuts. Everything has to make logical sense, and it did once I allowed the Bible to speak for itself.

My point was just that I - like most other JWs - have nothing invested in ensuring that the JW religion is internally consistent, so if someone were to present an apparent contradiction in JW beliefs, my response could very well be to shrug, say "maybe it really is a contradiction," and leave it be.

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The truth is not something that you can just say "close enough is good enough". From the Bible's perspective, things need to be accurate, or they aren't truth. If you have beliefs and you cannot back them up scripturally whilst maintaining the teachings of the whole Bible, (which we believe has only one author) then internal harmony is missing.....the Bible is one story from Genesis to Revelation. It's like a jigsaw puzzle, unless you have the picture on the box, you don't know where the pieces fit. For me, everything fits where it belongs.

The JWs seem to me to have better internal consistency than most other Christian denominations... though not perfect, since it would be impossible to be entirely consistent with something as self-contradictory as the Bible.

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Again, show us these inconsistencies and self contradictions......we don't see any. If God is the author of scripture, there cannot be any. If there are inconsistencies, it has to be erroneous interpretation.

Where the JWs tend to fall down, IMO, is with external consistency between their beliefs and reality.

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Please be more specific. This is vague.

... though I'm not really interested in re-hashing those inconsistencies in this thread. There's enough of that in the science vs. religion forum.

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This is the right forum to discuss faith issues. Let's discuss them.

Present your case and allow us to respond. Fair enough?

9-10ths_Penguin said:

You and @Deeje sure are eager to jump to conclusions, aren't you?
The JWs seem to me to have better internal consistency than most other Christian denominations... though not perfect, since it would be impossible to be entirely consistent with something as self-contradictory as the Bible. Where the JWs tend to fall down, IMO, is with external consistency between their beliefs and reality.

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It is true that 'jumping to conclusions seldom leads to happy endings' but I see No conclusion jumping.
I see the consistent reality of 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 in everyday news besides Jesus' words.
When we pick up the newspaper we read about the bad-news reality of men's kingdoms or governments.
When we pick up the Bible we read about the good news of God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44.
I find the international proclaiming about God's kingdom is carried out just as said at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
So, to me there is external consistency between the Bible and reality today.
- www.jw.org and www.Jehovah'sWitnessesBroadcasting.

Frank Goad said:

In the jw belief system the spirit is just life force and is impersonal.But if that is true what about 1 cor 5:5?How does go with Ps. 146:4?

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Much thins are simply wrong about jw doctrine. This is probably another one of those. It is also important to note, as you probably already know, they have their own Bible that they say in more "accurate". However, this is not the case. It contains very serious grammatical errors that are important to text. Ex. John 1:1