A Roman Catholic on the Trinity

rrobs · Dec 13, 2018

metis said:
The Sermon On the Mount, the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, the Parable of the Seed & Sower, the Parable of the Widow's Mite, and verses as found in James' and Paul's epistles say otherwise.

One of the keys to better understanding this is what the word "agape" actually entails, as the word "love" in English doesn't capture this. "Agape" in Koine Greek is an "active noun", namely that you live it out, not just have it cognitively.

Therefore, the concept that all one has to have is a p.c. belief about Jesus, such as the "Goats" did and yet were condemned, simply defies the gospel. Matter of fact, it's outright dangerous as it can lead to moral laziness while believing "I'm saved!".

You are absolutely correct in saying p.c. belief is not enough. After all, the devil himself probably knows the scriptures better than any of us. He said many times something to the effect of, "it is written" and he was right. That just tells me we better know them too.

I didn't mean to imply that just knowing the scriptures was enough. Sorry if I gave you that impression. I'll try to clarify.

As you said, the main thing is agape which I understand to be the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation. We want to show the world that love that God has for all people and His desire that all be saved (John3:16, 1 Tim 2:4). The question is how to do that. Do we do it by monitoring our flesh, by counting our sins? Doing so is nothing less than looking at ourselves, at our sins. As Jesus and Paul both said, there is nothing worth a plug nickel in our flesh. But there is a better way. Instead of looking at our sins we look to the savior of our sins.

Eph 4:22-23,

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Before we were born again all our thoughts were earthly. That is all we knew. The scriptures tell us that the natural man, the un-born again man, can not know the things of God, that they are foolishness to him (1 Cor 2:14). But something miraculously wonderful happens when a man or woman gets born again; they get the mind of Christ.

1Cor 2:16,

For who hath come to know the mind of the Lord, that shall instruct him? But, we, have, the mind of Christ.

That is another part of the gift of holy spirit all believers get when they are born again. It was first given on the day of Pentecost. Peter assured the people that if they made Jesus Lord and believed God raised him from the dead they too would get holy spirit, which includes that mind of Christ. Suddenly we get the ability to know and understand God and His son, Jesus Christ. The scriptures are no longer foolishness. We can know who God is and what He has done for us. That includes all the verses I quoted concerning our righteousness and justification.

Eph 3:19,

And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

What a wonderful revelation that is! We can know the love, the agape you mentioned, that comes from knowing Christ. As if that's not enough, it also says we are filled with all the fullness of God! What more could a fellow ask for?

However, as I said before in another post, God does not give us an "improved" flesh. We still have the same fleshy mind we had before we got born again. That does not change. God's work is a spiritual work within us. That brings me back to the renewed mind I mentioned.

It is up to the individual believer to replace all the fleshy thoughts with the thoughts of God which are in the scriptures. We have the mind of Christ, but until we "put it on" and renew our mind, we will still think thoughts of this world. That is of the utmost importance because our thoughts determine our beliefs and behavior.

Mark 11:23,

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Essentially this verse says that whatever we believe is what we get. If we look to ourselves for perfection we will fail every time. We know we sin. If we say we don't we make God a liar (1 John 1:10). Deep down, we know we sin. We all have a conscious that does not lie. That is all covered in Romans. So when we look to ourselves we see sin and therefor we sin.

But when we renew our minds to the scriptures, when we put on that mind of Christ, we eventually end up believing that we do have the righteousness of God (Rom 3:22), that we have been justified (Rom 3:24). Therefore, as Jesus said in Mark, we end up actually acting righteous and justified. We end up showing forth the agape to all the world. Is that not the goal for all Christians?

It is of the utmost importance that we realize that all of this is made possible by grace. That is why I say grace is a get out of jail card free. There is no way we can manifest agape by relying on our own works. It all depends on the complete work of our savior, Jesus Christ. We need to change our thoughts from worldly thoughts to heavenly thoughts before we have any chance of doing God's will. How can we possibly do His will until we know what it is? It is revealed in the scriptures. That is why we need to renew our minds to align with His thoughts contained in the scriptures.

I know I'm a sinner, but God says I'm as righteous as He Himself. Who should I believe? Me or God? Well, for me that is a no brainer. I need to change the thoughts of myself to His thoughts about me. Again, doing so will make my walk closer to that of Jesus Christ. It begins in the mind and it will end up manifesting into the senses world.

2Cor 3:17-18,

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This verse says exactly what I've tried to say. As we look, not at ourselves, nor at our own actions, but at the Lord, we slowly but surely change to be more like him.

Any person that looks to the scriptures to see what God has done for, in, and to them will never ever live a life of debauchery. That seems to be a common accusation whenever grace comes up as a way of life. I've heard many times, "so you think you can go on sinning as much as you want because of grace?" That is absolutely ludicrous. No, I don't think that at all. What I do think is that I was dead in trespasses and sins and that Jesus sacrificed his own life so that I might live for eternity. I am filled with so much awe and gratitude to God and His son that the last thing I want to do is be a bad witness for them.

The more I know the scriptures, the more I keep them in my mind, the more I want to be like him. And, lo and behold, I do see myself naturally living a more Christ like life. But I will never rely on my own righteousness or actions. I do not try to "reign in" my flesh in any way, shape, or form. That got me nowhere before and it never will get me anywhere. Instead I look to Jesus, the author and finisher of my faith. I keep my eyes on him, and he transforms me day by day to be more like him. End of story!

I hope I'm not bombarding you with too much talk. That is certainly not my intention. It's just that I'm so excited about what God has done for me that I can't help myself from proclaiming the greatness of Jesus' work to anybody who will listen. I am grateful to you for not just blowing me off as is so often the case. I appreciate our conversation. I think you are a fine man in every sense of the word. You are a true brother. I look forward to meeting you face to face when Jesus appears the second time to gather us together. God bless.

rrobs · Dec 13, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
Not to be nit picky, but to me basically there is 'one Gospel account' with four writers.
'The' gospel according to Matthew
'The' gospel according to Mark
'The' gospel according to Luke
'The' gospel according to John
So, putting oneself under the gospels is Not wrong to say, but to me it's more like putting oneself under 'the' gospel.
I think that view is just something that sticks with me since childhood.

Well, I think you've brought up a very interesting point. Nowhere in the scriptures themselves do we read "The gospel according to Matthew" or "The gospel according to Mark" or any of the others. Those may be headings man has added to the printed Bible, but they hold no authority in determining truth. Truth can only be determined by the scriptures themselves, by the words that God inspired holy men of God to write. To understand what a "gospel" is therefore, it is necessary to see how that word is actually used in the scriptures. We must disregard all our own ideas of what a "gospel" is and see exactly what God means by the that word.

Well, I will start off by saying I've not done a lot of research on that particular subject so I don't really know the fullness of what God means whenever He uses that word. However I'm not totally ignorant on the matter either. I know a little and I don't know a lot. Here's what I do know by looking up the word in Strong's Concordance to find every where God uses the word "gospel."

There are several different gospels revealed in the scriptures. Here is a list of the ones I understand to be spoken of by God. I will only give one verse reference for each even though other verses may also use the same words.

The gospel of the kingdom (Matt 4:23)
The gospel of Jesus Christ (Mark 1:1)
The gospel of the kingdom of God (Mark 1:14)
The gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24)
The gospel of God (Rom 1:1)
The gospel of His son (Rom 1:9)
The gospel of Christ (Rom 15:19)
My (Paul's) gospel (Rom 16:25)
The gospel which I (Paul) preached (1 Cor 15:1)
Another gospel (2 Cor 11:4, this gospel is a lie)
The gospel of the uncircumcision (Gal 2:7)
The gospel of your salvation (Eph 1:13)
The gospel of peace (Eph 6:15)
The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Thes 1:8)
The gospel of our Blessed God (1 Tim 1:11)
The gospel according to the power of God (2 Tim 1:8)

As far as I can tell, those are all the different ways God uses the word "gospel." I believe God has a purpose for each word He uses, where He uses it, and when He uses it. It would be remiss of us to simple say, "well they all mean the same thing." Do they? Maybe. But I think there is more to it than that.

As I said, I've not done enough study to understand why God seems to use the word "gospel" in so many different ways. Until I do, I simply say, "I don't know." Heck, I don't know way more about the scriptures than I do know! I'm certainly not ashamed of that. I become ashamed when I find myself thinking I know something when deep down inside I know I don't. I think that's a huge problem in Christendom today. Too many simply read into the scriptures what they already "know" to be in them. It is vitally important that we let the scriptures speak for themselves without interjecting preconceived ideas or church tradition, regardless of how old and established that tradition may be. Tradition can be an ugly thing.

Matt 15:6,

And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

God's word is life giving and powerful (Heb 4:12). But it can be rendered useless by tradition. That is certainly food for thought. Whenever I think I "know" something about God's word I always, to the best of my ability, ask myself if it is really what the scriptures say or is it just my own preconceived ideas.

I think it is fair to say that much of what the churches teach about God is tradition and not from the scriptures themselves. It is a sad state of affairs to be sure, but it is exactly what the devil wants. He knows that the more tradition is substituted for actual truth, the more hold he has on God's people. It has to be the word and nothing but the word that guides us into the truth. We must constantly be on guard as to where our beliefs originate. It is incredibly easy to think we understand God when what we really understand is tradition or our own ideas.

So, having said all that, I just want to impress upon you the importance of knowing how God uses the word "gospel" in His writings. Nobody knows anything about the Civil War without much study. Some spend years studying the Civil War. Why should God's word be any different? Study is work. God calls us "workmen" for a reason. It takes time and effort.

2Tim 2:15,

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

What does "rightly dividing" meas? There is only one way to find out. Studying! What is the Greek word for "rightly dividing?" There is a ton of information on the internet about the scriptues. You don't need to be fluent in Greek. Just get to work and study.

You have to do the same thing with every usage of the word "gospel." What is the context? Who was speaking? To whom where they speaking? When was it spoken? These are just some of the questions that need to be answered in order to really know what the word "gospel" means. Now you can see why it may take some time to come up with some understanding. It is certainly more work than just saying, "Well, I think the word 'gospel' means such and such a thing. My Pastor told me so." You gotta start somewhere!

metis · Dec 13, 2018

rrobs said:
You are absolutely correct in saying p.c. belief is not enough. After all, the devil himself probably knows the scriptures better than any of us. He said many times something to the effect of, "it is written" and he was right. That just tells me we better know them too.

I didn't mean to imply that just knowing the scriptures was enough. Sorry if I gave you that impression. I'll try to clarify.

As you said, the main thing is agape which I understand to be the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation. We want to show the world that love that God has for all people and His desire that all be saved (John3:16, 1 Tim 2:4). The question is how to do that. Do we do it by monitoring our flesh, by counting our sins? Doing so is nothing less than looking at ourselves, at our sins. As Jesus and Paul both said, there is nothing worth a plug nickel in our flesh. But there is a better way. Instead of looking at our sins we look to the savior of our sins.

Eph 4:22-23,

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Before we were born again all our thoughts were earthly. That is all we knew. The scriptures tell us that the natural man, the un-born again man, can not know the things of God, that they are foolishness to him (1 Cor 2:14). But something miraculously wonderful happens when a man or woman gets born again; they get the mind of Christ.

1Cor 2:16,

For who hath come to know the mind of the Lord, that shall instruct him? But, we, have, the mind of Christ.

That is another part of the gift of holy spirit all believers get when they are born again. It was first given on the day of Pentecost. Peter assured the people that if they made Jesus Lord and believed God raised him from the dead they too would get holy spirit, which includes that mind of Christ. Suddenly we get the ability to know and understand God and His son, Jesus Christ. The scriptures are no longer foolishness. We can know who God is and what He has done for us. That includes all the verses I quoted concerning our righteousness and justification.

Eph 3:19,

And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

What a wonderful revelation that is! We can know the love, the agape you mentioned, that comes from knowing Christ. As if that's not enough, it also says we are filled with all the fullness of God! What more could a fellow ask for?

However, as I said before in another post, God does not give us an "improved" flesh. We still have the same fleshy mind we had before we got born again. That does not change. God's work is a spiritual work within us. That brings me back to the renewed mind I mentioned.

It is up to the individual believer to replace all the fleshy thoughts with the thoughts of God which are in the scriptures. We have the mind of Christ, but until we "put it on" and renew our mind, we will still think thoughts of this world. That is of the utmost importance because our thoughts determine our beliefs and behavior.

Mark 11:23,

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Essentially this verse says that whatever we believe is what we get. If we look to ourselves for perfection we will fail every time. We know we sin. If we say we don't we make God a liar (1 John 1:10). Deep down, we know we sin. We all have a conscious that does not lie. That is all covered in Romans. So when we look to ourselves we see sin and therefor we sin.

But when we renew our minds to the scriptures, when we put on that mind of Christ, we eventually end up believing that we do have the righteousness of God (Rom 3:22), that we have been justified (Rom 3:24). Therefore, as Jesus said in Mark, we end up actually acting righteous and justified. We end up showing forth the agape to all the world. Is that not the goal for all Christians?

It is of the utmost importance that we realize that all of this is made possible by grace. That is why I say grace is a get out of jail card free. There is no way we can manifest agape by relying on our own works. It all depends on the complete work of our savior, Jesus Christ. We need to change our thoughts from worldly thoughts to heavenly thoughts before we have any chance of doing God's will. How can we possibly do His will until we know what it is? It is revealed in the scriptures. That is why we need to renew our minds to align with His thoughts contained in the scriptures.

I know I'm a sinner, but God says I'm as righteous as He Himself. Who should I believe? Me or God? Well, for me that is a no brainer. I need to change the thoughts of myself to His thoughts about me. Again, doing so will make my walk closer to that of Jesus Christ. It begins in the mind and it will end up manifesting into the senses world.

2Cor 3:17-18,

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This verse says exactly what I've tried to say. As we look, not at ourselves, nor at our own actions, but at the Lord, we slowly but surely change to be more like him.

Any person that looks to the scriptures to see what God has done for, in, and to them will never ever live a life of debauchery. That seems to be a common accusation whenever grace comes up as a way of life. I've heard many times, "so you think you can go on sinning as much as you want because of grace?" That is absolutely ludicrous. No, I don't think that at all. What I do think is that I was dead in trespasses and sins and that Jesus sacrificed his own life so that I might live for eternity. I am filled with so much awe and gratitude to God and His son that the last thing I want to do is be a bad witness for them.

The more I know the scriptures, the more I keep them in my mind, the more I want to be like him. And, lo and behold, I do see myself naturally living a more Christ like life. But I will never rely on my own righteousness or actions. I do not try to "reign in" my flesh in any way, shape, or form. That got me nowhere before and it never will get me anywhere. Instead I look to Jesus, the author and finisher of my faith. I keep my eyes on him, and he transforms me day by day to be more like him. End of story!

I hope I'm not bombarding you with too much talk. That is certainly not my intention. It's just that I'm so excited about what God has done for me that I can't help myself from proclaiming the greatness of Jesus' work to anybody who will listen. I am grateful to you for not just blowing me off as is so often the case. I appreciate our conversation. I think you are a fine man in every sense of the word. You are a true brother. I look forward to meeting you face to face when Jesus appears the second time to gather us together. God bless.

Thanks for the above, but please do me a favor when responding to my posts, and that is please get to the point. My Swedish background is a such that, for better or worse [probably more the latter], I tend to use few words.

Keep the faith and tale care, my friend.

rrobs · Dec 13, 2018

metis said:
Thanks for the above, but please do me a favor when responding to my posts, and that is please get to the point. My Swedish background is a such that, for better or worse [probably more the latter], I tend to use few words.

Keep the faith and tale care, my friend.

Thanks for the suggestion. I never knew the Swiss were terse in conversation. Not necessarily a bad thing. Just how it is. I'm a blowhard myself!

I guess I could have just said that the more we look to Christ instead of ourselves, the more Christlike we become.

Having said that, I might suggest that you read my longish posts a little at a time instead of all at once. I think they will help you see more clearly what I mean by the abbreviated version above. I really think you will be blessed by doing that.

metis · Dec 13, 2018

rrobs said:
I never knew the Swiss were terse in conversation.

It's "Swede" not "Swiss", but I'll take a cup of the latter's hot chocolate, thank you.

rrobs said:
I guess I could have just said that the more we look to Christ instead of ourselves, the more Christlike we become.

Agreed.

rrobs said:
Having said that, I might suggest that you read my longish posts a little at a time instead of all at once. I think they will help you see more clearly what I mean by the abbreviated version above. I really think you will be blessed by doing that.

I usually don't have that much time, but thanks for the recommendation anyway.

URAVIP2ME · Dec 14, 2018

rrobs said:
Well, I think you've brought up a very interesting point. Nowhere in the scriptures themselves do we read "The gospel according to Matthew" or "The gospel according to Mark" or any of the others. Those may be headings man has added to the printed Bible, but they hold no authority in determining truth. Truth can only be determined by the scriptures themselves, by the words that God inspired holy men of God to write. To understand what a "gospel" is therefore, it is necessary to see how that word is actually used in the scriptures. We must disregard all our own ideas of what a "gospel" is and see exactly what God means by the that word.

Well, I will start off by saying I've not done a lot of research on that particular subject so I don't really know the fullness of what God means whenever He uses that word. However I'm not totally ignorant on the matter either. I know a little and I don't know a lot. Here's what I do know by looking up the word in Strong's Concordance to find every where God uses the word "gospel."

There are several different gospels revealed in the scriptures. Here is a list of the ones I understand to be spoken of by God. I will only give one verse reference for each even though other verses may also use the same words.

The gospel of the kingdom (Matt 4:23)

The gospel of Jesus Christ (Mark 1:1)

The gospel of the kingdom of God (Mark 1:14)

The gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24)

The gospel of God (Rom 1:1)

The gospel of His son (Rom 1:9)

The gospel of Christ (Rom 15:19)

My (Paul's) gospel (Rom 16:25)

The gospel which I (Paul) preached (1 Cor 15:1)

Another gospel (2 Cor 11:4, this gospel is a lie)

The gospel of the uncircumcision (Gal 2:7)

The gospel of your salvation (Eph 1:13)

The gospel of peace (Eph 6:15)

The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Thes 1:8)

The gospel of our Blessed God (1 Tim 1:11)

The gospel according to the power of God (2 Tim 1:8)

As far as I can tell, those are all the different ways God uses the word "gospel." I believe God has a purpose for each word He uses, where He uses it, and when He uses it. It would be remiss of us to simple say, "well they all mean the same thing." Do they? Maybe. But I think there is more to it than that.

As I said, I've not done enough study to understand why God seems to use the word "gospel" in so many different ways. Until I do, I simply say, "I don't know." Heck, I don't know way more about the scriptures than I do know! I'm certainly not ashamed of that. I become ashamed when I find myself thinking I know something when deep down inside I know I don't. I think that's a huge problem in Christendom today. Too many simply read into the scriptures what they already "know" to be in them. It is vitally important that we let the scriptures speak for themselves without interjecting preconceived ideas or church tradition, regardless of how old and established that tradition may be. Tradition can be an ugly thing.

Matt 15:6,

And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

God's word is life giving and powerful (Heb 4:12). But it can be rendered useless by tradition. That is certainly food for thought. Whenever I think I "know" something about God's word I always, to the best of my ability, ask myself if it is really what the scriptures say or is it just my own preconceived ideas.

I think it is fair to say that much of what the churches teach about God is tradition and not from the scriptures themselves. It is a sad state of affairs to be sure, but it is exactly what the devil wants. He knows that the more tradition is substituted for actual truth, the more hold he has on God's people. It has to be the word and nothing but the word that guides us into the truth. We must constantly be on guard as to where our beliefs originate. It is incredibly easy to think we understand God when what we really understand is tradition or our own ideas.

So, having said all that, I just want to impress upon you the importance of knowing how God uses the word "gospel" in His writings. Nobody knows anything about the Civil War without much study. Some spend years studying the Civil War. Why should God's word be any different? Study is work. God calls us "workmen" for a reason. It takes time and effort.

2Tim 2:15,

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

What does "rightly dividing" meas? There is only one way to find out. Studying! What is the Greek word for "rightly dividing?" There is a ton of information on the internet about the scriptues. You don't need to be fluent in Greek. Just get to work and study.

You have to do the same thing with every usage of the word "gospel." What is the context? Who was speaking? To whom where they speaking? When was it spoken? These are just some of the questions that need to be answered in order to really know what the word "gospel" means. Now you can see why it may take some time to come up with some understanding. It is certainly more work than just saying, "Well, I think the word 'gospel' means such and such a thing. My Pastor told me so." You gotta start somewhere!

Sorry I was Not clear enough, I was specifically addressing the 4 gospel accounts.
The 4 gospel accounts make up THE gospel about Jesus' life.
By saying 'gospels' that makes it sound to some that they are different or conflicting.
So, as some think they are just separate, or not matching, all 4 accounts put together make up one gospel.
The ' gospel of the kingdom ' (Daniel 2:44) is part of Jesus' life ( Luke 4:43 ) which is part of the gospel.
Again, sorry I was Not clear enough.

74x12 · Dec 23, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
I find the words found at Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B means that the pre-human heavenly Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God. According to Psalms 90:2 God had No beginning being from everlasting.
So, to me that means only God was before the beginning. So, then pre-human Jesus was Not before the beginning as his God was before the beginning.

I am wondering if you have any thoughts about Revelation 3:12 (Psalms 89:26)

Who says it's talking about pre-human Jesus? This means Jesus the human was the beginning of God's creation!

Jesus is first or preeminent. Being spoken beforehand set forth before hand so that all things hang on Him. Jesus is the Light of Genesis 1:3 and all things were made in the Light of 6 days and God rested on the 7th day. A day is a period of Light and Jesus is that Light. So that from beginning to the eternal end Jesus is present. Being the author and finisher of all things.

But this was the human, man child; Jesus who is from the beginning. There came a time in actuality when He truly was born making true all that had already been hung on Him as though He already was. Because He was in truth. As He says

I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

And indeed He was slain from the foundation of the world. Everything hanging on this thread that He would rise from the dead. Becoming firstborn from the dead and therefore the Chief Cornerstone of a new creation that is eternal for it is founded on that eternal, imperishable, precious Rock which is Christ.

Thus the new Jerusalem was finished by the 7th day of creation and God rested from all His work which He had worked.

As Jesus said "My Father works hitherto and I work" because the religious Jews did not understand why He dared to work the works of God on the Sabbath day. Jesus is the Light of God shining in the darkness of the world. The darkness comprehended it not. The Sabbath day; God's rest is coming for those who work the work of God right now. This day that is coming is eternal; the Light of God shining in the face of Jesus Christ forever. So there will be rest for Him and for those who believe the truth.

metis · Dec 24, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
By saying 'gospels' that makes it sound to some that they are different or conflicting.

Except there are "variations" as theologians call them. For examplem how many angels were at Jesus' tomb, where were/was they/he located, what did they/he say, and what happened right after the women left?

No two gospels agree.

The importance of the scriptures is not the issue of inerrancy but is what is the essence of what they are trying to convey to enhance one's faith.

URAVIP2ME · Dec 24, 2018

metis said:
Except there are "variations" as theologians call them. For examplem how many angels were at Jesus' tomb, where were/was they/he located, what did they/he say, and what happened right after the women left?
No two gospels agree.
The importance of the scriptures is not the issue of inerrancy but is what is the essence of what they are trying to convey to enhance one's faith.

To me, is it that No two agree, rather just putting it all together paints a complete picture.

rrobs · Dec 24, 2018

74x12 said:
Who says it's talking about pre-human Jesus? This means Jesus the human was the beginning of God's creation!

Jesus is first or preeminent. Being spoken beforehand set forth before hand so that all things hang on Him. Jesus is the Light of Genesis 1:3 and all things were made in the Light of 6 days and God rested on the 7th day. A day is a period of Light and Jesus is that Light. So that from beginning to the eternal end Jesus is present. Being the author and finisher of all things.

But this was the human, man child; Jesus who is from the beginning. There came a time in actuality when He truly was born making true all that had already been hung on Him as though He already was. Because He was in truth. As He says

I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

And indeed He was slain from the foundation of the world. Everything hanging on this thread that He would rise from the dead. Becoming firstborn from the dead and therefore the Chief Cornerstone of a new creation that is eternal for it is founded on that eternal, imperishable, precious Rock which is Christ.

Thus the new Jerusalem was finished by the 7th day of creation and God rested from all His work which He had worked.

As Jesus said "My Father works hitherto and I work" because the religious Jews did not understand why He dared to work the works of God on the Sabbath day. Jesus is the Light of God shining in the darkness of the world. The darkness comprehended it not. The Sabbath day; God's rest is coming for those who work the work of God right now. This day that is coming is eternal; the Light of God shining in the face of Jesus Christ forever. So there will be rest for Him and for those who believe the truth.

The Bible was written by Hebrews with a Hebrew mindset. If you do some research you will see that they understood that much what God spoke was spoken from a perspective of something that was so sure to occur in the future that it was spoken of as having already occurred even though it had not actually happened at the time it was spoken of.

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2Tim 1:9,

Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

We did not actually exist until we were born. The same goes with Jesus.

Matt 1:18,

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

The idea of the pre-existance of the soul is a Greek philosophical assertion. It is not God's idea. Jesus, as did we, certainly existed in God's mind from the beginning. That is what John 1:1 actually says. It is a bastardization of the scriptures to merely substitute the word "Jesus" for the word "Word" (logos). The logos was God's plan of redemption. Jesus was certainly the star of the plan, but he was not "the" plan. Hebrews 1:1 says that God spoke to Israel in different ways (spoken, written, visions, etc.) and that in the later days He spoke via His son, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was a carbon copy of God's word because he always did his Father's will. John 1:14 says the same thing. God's plan, the logos, was indeed manifested in the person of Jesus Christ, but that didn't actually happen until he was born into this world.

There is plenty of information on how the trinity became accepted for anyone who dares to question tradition. Jesus himself said tradition makes the word of God of none effect. How true he spoke those words!

metis · Dec 24, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
To me, is it that No two agree, rather just putting it all together paints a complete picture.

Maybe yes; maybe no. Depends on how one looks at this.

As for me, I have never believed in scriptural inerrancy, but neither do I trash the scriptures. They are a means to an end, not an end in and of themselves, imo. They're role is to teach faith, not objective history nor science, even though there's some overlap with them. They're immensely valuable to me, but not as an idol.

Merry Christmas.

rrobs · Dec 24, 2018

metis said:
Except there are "variations" as theologians call them. For examplem how many angels were at Jesus' tomb, where were/was they/he located, what did they/he say, and what happened right after the women left?

No two gospels agree.

The importance of the scriptures is not the issue of inerrancy but is what is the essence of what they are trying to convey to enhance one's faith.

Theologians don't necessarily have a corner on truth. You are assuming there was only one visitation at the tomb. Check your premise. Could it be that the scriptures speak of different people visiting the tomb at different times with a different number of angels at each visit? It's worth a bit of your own research.

URAVIP2ME · Dec 24, 2018

shmogie said:
The term is HE, used repeatedly in reference to The Spirit, HE. If Christ didn´t mean a HE, and knew he was referring to power, or a force, why not use the correct term ?
I have many translations, and they are consistent, there is no A in Jn. 1:1 except in the NWT.
Of course Jesus is a separate being within the Godhead, he isn´t the Father.
The Father sent Jesus with his agreement to the earth

In Greek grammar rules it is acceptable for a neuter to be referred to as a he.
Even in English a car or ship can be referred to as a 'she ' although remaining a neuter 'it'.
I was looking at the 'Interlinear translation of the Greek' and I notice that God/god is mentioned twice at John 1.
The first ' God ' mentioned is a slightly different word than the word used for the second mention of ' god '....
Any thoughts about that _______
Plus, KJV put the letter 'a' at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B, and omitted the 'a' at John 1 although the same Greek grammar rules applies in both verses.

metis · Dec 24, 2018

rrobs said:
Theologians don't necessarily have a corner on truth. You are assuming there was only one visitation at the tomb. Check your premise. Could it be that the scriptures speak of different people visiting the tomb at different times with a different number of angels at each visit? It's worth a bit of your own research.

I have researched it, and I do believe it's very clear that they are talking about the same visitation if you read them one after the another.

What we are most likely running into are variations due to different authors relying on some differences of what they heard in the oral traditions that were passed down to them from decades previous. It is virtually impossible to conclude that they reflect four different visitations if you read them side-by-side.

Instead of making these variations look like the tomb narrative is weak in its authenticity, I tend to view it as being strong because there was clearly not an attempt to change one or more of them so as to reform them to be an exact match. The fact that it was the women reporting this also feeds that strength as the testimony of women was considered highly questionable back then.

So, out of weakness comes strength.

Merry Christmas.

URAVIP2ME · Dec 24, 2018

metis said:
Maybe yes; maybe no. Depends on how one looks at this.
As for me, I have never believed in scriptural inerrancy, but neither do I trash the scriptures. They are a means to an end, not an end in and of themselves, imo. They're role is to teach faith, not objective history nor science, even though there's some overlap with them. They're immensely valuable to me, but not as an idol.
Merry Christmas.

Even to Jesus (who truly was Not born on Dec 25th) the Scriptures were also Not an idol for Jesus.
Jesus I find did teach at John 17:17 that Scripture is religious truth.
So, religious truth sets us free from what is religiously false.
We want to be sure that we do Not love what is false, Not love the lie - Revelation 22:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11.

rrobs · Dec 24, 2018

metis said:
What we are most likely running into are variations due to different authors relying on some differences of what they heard in the oral traditions that were passed down to them from decades previous.

Merry Christmas.

Eureka! I've found the root of our differences. Whereas you believe that the various writers got their material from oral traditions, I believe all the scriptures, every word, is directly from God.

2Tim 3:16,

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Of course I suppose it can be said that Timothy is just writing down yet another oral tradition he heard, but I just take it at face value, i.e. there is one author of the scriptures, God.

Do you think eternal life is another oral tradition or the actual fate of all born again believers? I don't know about you, but I'm in this for real eternal life. Otherwise I'd rather read and study Charles Dickens.

Merry Christmas to you! And, of course, a happy New Year.

74x12 · Dec 24, 2018

rrobs said:
The Bible was written by Hebrews with a Hebrew mindset. If you do some research you will see that they understood that much what God spoke was spoken from a perspective of something that was so sure to occur in the future that it was spoken of as having already occurred even though it had not actually happened at the time it was spoken of.

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2Tim 1:9,

Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
We did not actually exist until we were born. The same goes with Jesus.

Matt 1:18,

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Well Jesus did exist as God before. The Son was spoken of as if He was already but there would come a time when He would actually be born and actually rise from the dead. Making Him indeed what He was already in foreordaination of God. You're right about that. See Hebrews 13:8.

rrobs said:
The idea of the pre-existance of the soul is a Greek philosophical assertion. It is not God's idea. Jesus, as did we, certainly existed in God's mind from the beginning. That is what John 1:1 actually says. It is a bastardization of the scriptures to merely substitute the word "Jesus" for the word "Word" (logos).

God Himself has a Soul (Judges 10:16) and we know Jesus is God. So I agree with you for everyone but Jesus because He existed as God. So of course His Soul already existed.

John 1:1 cannot be understood properly without referring to Genesis 1:3. The "Word" is the Light of Genesis 1:3. It's the Light of God in the world. This is the revelation that John had and spoke of but few properly understand the context.

This Light is what Isaiah spoke of:

Isaiah 9
Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Jesus is the Light of God entering the world which was covered by the "shadow of death". Jesus the Light of Life came to save us from death. We know He is God because it is God Himself.

And this is the message that we have heard from Him, and announce to you, that God is light, and darkness in Him is not at all; (1 John 1:5)

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Psalm 102 reveals the man child's true nature. He is God manifest. It is God Himself who "looks down from heaven" to loose those appointed to death. (those under the shadow of death) That means God Himself will save from death. We know that Jesus saves from death through the resurrection.

This is about Jesus whose days were shortened (by 3 days specifically) but His years are throughout all generations. This speaks of His resurrection. But God does not stop there but informs Him that He (Jesus, the man child) is the one who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands. And He has never changed because He is always the same and His years will not ever end. So Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. There aren't two gods or 3 persons of God. God is One . But He was manifest in the flesh which is Jesus Christ.

16 When the Lord shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.
17 He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer.
18 This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the Lord.
19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the Lord behold the earth;
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;
21 To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem;
22 When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the Lord.
23 He weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days.
24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
28 The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.

rrobs said:
The logos was God's plan of redemption. Jesus was certainly the star of the plan, but he was not "the" plan. Hebrews 1:1 says that God spoke to Israel in different ways (spoken, written, visions, etc.) and that in the later days He spoke via His son, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was a carbon copy of God's word because he always did his Father's will. John 1:14 says the same thing. God's plan, the logos, was indeed manifested in the person of Jesus Christ, but that didn't actually happen until he was born into this world.

Jesus is the Word made flesh. This is the Word: "Let there be Light"

Again, therefore, Jesus spake to them, saying, `I am the light of the world; he who is following me shall not walk in the darkness, but he shall have the light of the life.'
(John 8:12)

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 COrinthians 4:6)

rrobs said:
There is plenty of information on how the trinity became accepted for anyone who dares to question tradition. Jesus himself said tradition makes the word of God of none effect. How true he spoke those words!

I dare to question tradition and I know about the trinity doctrine. I do not accept the trinity which I believe I've told you before. Trinitarians consider me heretical.

metis · Dec 26, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
Even to Jesus (who truly was Not born on Dec 25th)...

I didn't say he was, and the CC doesn't claim he was either. Instead, it's a day set aside to commemorate his birth and what he did.

metis · Dec 26, 2018

rrobs said:
2Tim 3:16,

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The Timothy citation was in reference to Torah and possible some other books in the Tanakh, not the NT as the latter had not been composed during his time. Also, the statement itself does not claim inerrancy, nor does it say exactly what the "inspiration of God" actually is since that could take different forms.

Generally speaking, theologians simply do not believe God actually wrote the Bible and inspired every word as we know there are so many "variations" found within it, including hundreds of spelling errors found in John's gospel according to theologian and Christian historian Sir William Barclay.

So, there simply is no evidence whatsoever that it is inerrant or 100% divinely inspired, and yet millions of people probably read it every day, and I am one of them.

rrobs said:
Do you think eternal life is another oral tradition or the actual fate of all born again believers?

Hard to say, so I really don't get into that.

What to me is more important for myself is to realize that there is Something a lot bigger than me out there that created all and that I need to try and live as morally as possible along faith lines. Jesus' message of "love one another" very much resonates with me.

As far as my judgement is concerned, that's for God to decide-- not me.

rrobs said:
Merry Christmas to you! And, of course, a happy New Year.

Thank you as we had a wonderful Christmas starting with Midnight Mass and then having our family over on Christmas Day. Hopefully yours was enjoyable as well.

rrobs · Dec 26, 2018

74x12 said:
Well Jesus did exist as God before. The Son was spoken of as if He was already but there would come a time when He would actually be born and actually rise from the dead. Making Him indeed what He was already in foreordaination of God. You're right about that. See Hebrews 13:8.

God Himself has a Soul (Judges 10:16) and we know Jesus is God. So I agree with you for everyone but Jesus because He existed as God. So of course His Soul already existed.

John 1:1 cannot be understood properly without referring to Genesis 1:3. The "Word" is the Light of Genesis 1:3. It's the Light of God in the world. This is the revelation that John had and spoke of but few properly understand the context.

This Light is what Isaiah spoke of:

Isaiah 9
Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Jesus is the Light of God entering the world which was covered by the "shadow of death". Jesus the Light of Life came to save us from death. We know He is God because it is God Himself.

And this is the message that we have heard from Him, and announce to you, that God is light, and darkness in Him is not at all; (1 John 1:5)

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Psalm 102 reveals the man child's true nature. He is God manifest. It is God Himself who "looks down from heaven" to loose those appointed to death. (those under the shadow of death) That means God Himself will save from death. We know that Jesus saves from death through the resurrection.

This is about Jesus whose days were shortened (by 3 days specifically) but His years are throughout all generations. This speaks of His resurrection. But God does not stop there but informs Him that He (Jesus, the man child) is the one who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands. And He has never changed because He is always the same and His years will not ever end. So Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. There aren't two gods or 3 persons of God. God is One . But He was manifest in the flesh which is Jesus Christ.

16 When the Lord shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.
17 He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer.
18 This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the Lord.
19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the Lord behold the earth;
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;
21 To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem;
22 When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the Lord.
23 He weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days.
24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
28 The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.

Jesus is the Word made flesh. This is the Word: "Let there be Light"

Again, therefore, Jesus spake to them, saying, `I am the light of the world; he who is following me shall not walk in the darkness, but he shall have the light of the life.'
(John 8:12)

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 COrinthians 4:6)

I dare to question tradition and I know about the trinity doctrine. I do not accept the trinity which I believe I've told you before. Trinitarians consider me heretical.

Now I remember that you are not a Trinitarian.

Here is a good link that explains the Hebrew conception of pre-existence:
Pre-Existence in the Hebrew Mind

I'd be curious to get your reaction. Thanks.

A Roman Catholic on the Trinity

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