Canonization of the Saints

Deeje said:

God has put the desire to go on living into our genetics. Once here, it is difficult for any of us to imagine not being here. (individual expectations notwithstanding) No matter how much time elapses, our collective expectations do not change.

Anyone with a good quality of life has no desire to die. It isn't natural to want to die. For a physically healthy individual, it is a symptom of mental illness.



Beliefs about the afterlife have no biblical precedents because there is only one place that humanity are Created to live....right here on earth where God put us.

Since there is no afterlife mentioned in the Bible, all life that has been lost will need a resurrection....this was to take place in two stages. A resurrection was promised for those chosen to rule in God's kingdom with Jesus. These will be raised with a spiritual body appropriate to living in a non-material realm. They will be resurrected "first" (Revelation 20:6) Then after the Kingdom takes control of Earth's affairs, the general resurrection of the dead will take place according to John 5:28-29. (Daniel 2:44)

Everything has an order and a purpose. It's all in the Bible and it's what I believe and what makes sense of this ridiculous world we see being drawn in a vortex of unexplainable evil. I am a person who needs answers.....and the Bible has them all for me.

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(I read it). Dejee, though. Is the resurrection genetic?
I know you believe we genetically eternal. I disagree. Our body and spirit are together. They arent separate; so, nothing will be resurrected.

Is resurrection part of our geneology?

Unveiled Artist said:

(I read it). Dejee, though. Is the resurrection genetic?

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It is the desire to go on living that is genetic....the resurrection is how it is achieved when death is our reality. How else would we know that death will not defeat God's purpose to have humans live on earth forever?

I know you believe we genetically eternal. I disagree. Our body and spirit are together. They arent separate; so, nothing will be resurrected.

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I know that people have various ideas about life, and upbringing can have a big influence on what we come to believe. What religious beliefs were you raised with?

The teachings about spirits are almost universal....often with good spirits and evil ones. These spirit entities are not connected to humans in the Bible but are spirit beings created to live in the spirit realm. As free wiled beings, they too have a choice to serve their Creator obediently. A rebellion in the spirit realm is the cause of all our problems, solved by God with a long range plan to come full circle and achieve his first purpose whilst eliminating those who refuse to comply with his requirements for life on this planet.
All he ever asked of us right from the beginning, was our willing obedience. It's all he asks now.

Is resurrection part of our geneology?

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No....it will be part of the experience of those who lived and died before his purpose was complete. I believe that God accomplished so much by taking the long term benefits into consideration rather than the short term fix of simply eliminating all rebels just because he could. Giving us all the same choices, puts our eternal future in our own hands.

Deeje said:

It is the desire to go on living that is genetic....the resurrection is how it is achieved when death is our reality. How else would we know that death will not defeat God's purpose to have humans live on earth forever?

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I honestly wouldnt know. Christianity (however defined) doesnt make sense to me at all. The concept and meaning behind why people believe after awhile I catch on.

Deeje said:

I know that people have various ideas about life, and upbringing can have a big influence on what we come to believe. What religious beliefs were you raised with?

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I was just talking about this with my mother earlier. We were rehasing our experiences before and today about different things like communicating with spirits, feeling peoples auras, and diferents most my immediate family (though skipped my sister..for now) see things in relation to what many call the supernatural. I never thought it off, or extreme, until I came on RF. I never really talked about it. It wasnt taught just been around it its like second nature stories.

I did took after my mother with her interest with witchcraft because of her experiences. Parents being military, they were influenced by other religious practices that in the States would be considered demonic. We have a lot of minorities seen in that light.

As for christianity, I studied it because I took comparative religion in high school. I left it. Was influenced by catholicism when I moved since there are many catholics. I wasnt raised catholic or anything like that.

Thats basically my background in a nutshell.

Deeje said:

The teachings about spirits are almost universal....often with good spirits and evil ones. These spirit entities are not connected to humans in the Bible but are spirit beings created to live in the spirit realm. As free wiled beings, they too have a choice to serve their Creator obediently. A rebellion in the spirit realm is the cause of all our problems, solved by God with a long range plan to come full circle and achieve his first purpose whilst eliminating those who refuse to comply with his requirements for life on this planet.

All he ever asked of us right from the beginning, was our willing obedience. It's all he asks now.

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Well. Believing in spirits, gods, goddesses, etc were around way before christianity. In my academic studies, christianity is pretty political rather than spiritual. Nowadays, the politcal, at least in the States, are watered down a bit. It still influences us and our governent. Long story.

What you are saying sounds like something I would see on t.v. or movies. Thats how foreign it is to me. But, no, spirits arent universal. I dont have a religious-reality; so, its easier to entertain two and two is five without being uncomfortable that I know it is four. Different worldviews.

Deeje said:

No....it will be part of the experience of those who lived and died before his purpose was complete. I believe that God accomplished so much by taking the long term benefits into consideration rather than the short term fix of simply eliminating all rebels just because he could. Giving us all the same choices, puts our eternal future in our own hands.

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Hmm. On this forum, I do ask a lot what the definition of god is. Im not sure how JW define it. I think thats a good foundation to start with the definitions (yes...with scripture ) then go on what god says, does, and what you believe about him.

Unveiled Artist said:

Well. Believing in spirits, gods, goddesses, etc were around way before christianity.

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Indeed!!

Hello, @Unveiled Artist , hope you are well.

Regarding your comment above, would you please read Exodus 7:8-13?

It mentions two spirit (invisible) forces: one was God's, and the other was....from whom, you think?

Whomever's force it was, it was working against God's invisible power!

URAVIP2ME said:

10% tithing was under the temporary constitution of the Mosaic Law for that Jewish nation.

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Then why did Paul say he was continuing to tithe?

The reality is that the 1st century Church did organize charity, and also part of the evidence from that comes from the statements found in Acts that the apostles shared their possessions, plus their insistence on taking care of the poor such as Jesus taught. And these verses support that:

Rom.15[26] For Macedo'nia and Acha'ia have been pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem;

Gal.2[10] only they would have us remember the poor, which very thing I was eager to do.

To the above, I have to ask this question: Why in the world wouldn't the Church try and organize itself so as to fulfill Jesus' mandate to help the poor and dispossessed? Not doing as such wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, especially since we see the Church being organized in other areas.

Hockeycowboy said:

Indeed!!

Hello, @Unveiled Artist , hope you are well.

Regarding your comment above, would you please read Exodus 7:8-13?

It mentions two spirit (invisible) forces: one was God's, and the other was....from whom, you think?

Whomever's force it was, it was working against God's invisible power!

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The forces weren't evil it was the people who used the force. One from god and the other human. The people determined the morality of the force not the force itself.

Like divination. In itself it means nothing. But (I think) some people in the bible were foretold of events from god before they happened. Likewise, others divine events that were not from god. The divination isn't the problem. It's the who not the what.

So, if god told you X person will do this tomorrow if you do that, that's not wrong.

If you took it upon yourself to make s divination tool to see if X person will do this, that is wrong.

I don't know if god used the constellations to determine events given to his followers. But I know it says when others use it it's playing god/idolism therefore a sin. Mostly context.

@Hockeycowboy

I think the only sins I can think of are sins apart from the person is sexual promisquity, marriage, rape (etc), and worship of false gods.

Divination doesn't work without the person. So, it's not a sin unless one takes it upon himself to tell the future rather than the act of future events determined and played out from god.

metis said:

Then why did Paul say he was continuing to tithe?
The reality is that the 1st century Church did organize charity, and also part of the evidence from that comes from the statements found in Acts that the apostles shared their possessions, plus their insistence on taking care of the poor ...
Rom.15[26] For Macedo'nia and Acha'ia have been pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem;
Gal.2[10] only they would have us remember the poor, which very thing I was eager to do.

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First of all, the people staying in Jerusalem at the time of Pentecost shared their possessions, etc. in order for those foreign traveling people to stay longer. No hotels back then. The people used their homes like a Bed and Breakfast.

Giving a contribution is Not a 'tithing tenth' for the support of the Levites.
No mention of tithing at Romans 15:26 or Galatians 2:10. Giving does Not have to be a tithe. (10%)
A contribution could be any amount but Not to brag about it - Matthew 6 (alms); Proverbs 27:2.

Unveiled Artist said:

Divination doesn't work without the person. So, it's not a sin unless one takes it upon himself to tell the future rather than the act of future events determined and played out from god.

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To me, God's gifting us with free-will choices shows God does Not pre-determine what we will do.
I suppose the reason the ones who tell the future (fortune tellers) are the ones who always will the lotteries.

metis said:

To the above, I have to ask this question: Why in the world wouldn't the Church try and organize itself so as to fulfill Jesus' mandate to help the poor and dispossessed? Not doing as such wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, especially since we see the Church being organized in other areas.

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The reason Jesus did Not help everyone at his time frame is because that would have only been a bandade.
To me, that is why Jesus stressed preaching and teaching at Luke 4:43.
God's coming kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is the whole and lasting solution.
Jesus was just giving us a healing preview, or a coming attraction of what Jesus will be doing world wide.
If everyone on Earth just lived by the Golden Rule what would the world look like today ?
Jesus did give a mandate, in a sense, with his story about the neighborly good Samaritan.
We are to all broaden out, or widen out in showing care and concern on a one-on-one basis.
As we see a person in his time of need and we can help then we should do what we can for that person.
In the meantime Christians are to follow Jesus' instructions as found at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8.
To let the world know that Christ's coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth will cure all that ails.

URAVIP2ME said:

To me, God's gifting us with free-will choices shows God does Not pre-determine what we will do.
I suppose the reason the ones who tell the future (fortune tellers) are the ones who always will the lotteries.

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I think misinterpreted what I said a bit. If god works through you to predict events he, himself, would carry out through you than that divination is edit: not a sin. People do things that god already had in mind for many biblical years. That prophet still had his free will (in my opinion, its just wanting to keep ones Ego/Self) but he makes a choice to follow his gods wishes.

Prophets dont say; I want to keep my free will so I wont do what you say lord. Its more, because I put turst in you lord, I want to do what you say because you have everything for me already planned.

You see the difference between ego (I want free will to do what I want) and devotion (I want to follow god because of my free will)?

URAVIP2ME said:

First of all, the people staying in Jerusalem at the time of Pentecost shared their possessions, etc. in order for those foreign traveling people to stay longer. No hotels back then. The people used their homes like a Bed and Breakfast.

Giving a contribution is Not a 'tithing tenth' for the support of the Levites.
No mention of tithing at Romans 15:26 or Galatians 2:10. Giving does Not have to be a tithe. (10%)
A contribution could be any amount but Not to brag about it - Matthew 6 (alms); Proverbs 27:2.

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Paul was sending donations back to the Church in Jerusalem and tithed himself. Plus the fact is that the early 2nd century Church definitely took in and distributed charitable contributions, so if there was any doubt about this process what that tells us is that it must have been also done prior to the 2nd century. IOW, a continuation.

On top of this, Torah mandated such charitable collections, Jesus and the apostles were all Jewish, therefore they would have obeyed Torah's mandate or violated Torah. The more liberal view of the Law did not kick in until after Jesus was crucified. The Church tried to do things in an organized manner and this was no exception by all indications. Why would they leave such important things up to just individual discernment, thus possibly jeopardizing the widows and orphans and poor? It is very clear that the early Church had expectations of its members and was not a "just do your own thing" entity.

Anyhow, take care.

Unveiled Artist said:

I think misinterpreted what I said a bit. If god works through you to predict events he, himself, would carry out through you than that divination is edit: not a sin. People do things that god already had in mind for many biblical years. That prophet still had his free will (in my opinion, its just wanting to keep ones Ego/Self) but he makes a choice to follow his gods wishes.
Prophets don't say; I want to keep my free will so I wont do what you say lord. Its more, because I put trust in you lord, I want to do what you say because you have everything for me already planned.
You see the difference between ego (I want free will to do what I want) and devotion (I want to follow god because of my free will)?

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I find the ^ above ^ to be very interesting.
I think Paul also saw the difference between 'ego' and 'devotion' because he penned at Philippians 2:3 to do nothing out of ego. He made the choice to follow (Not divination) but God's wishes - Ezekiel 2:5 B; Ezekiel 33:33
To do nothing out of contentiousness, or out of egotism, but with humility (lowliness of mind) considering others as being superior to you. In other words, take the lead in showing honor to others as per Romans 12:10.
So, like Paul then follow God because of having one's own free-will choices, and Not out of 'I want free will to do what I want to do'. That also reminds me of the 60's saying to 'do your own thing'.
Back in the 60's there was a BIG billboard in town that read to 'Go to the church of your choice'.
It should have read: 'Go to the church of God's choice'.
Kind of like Pres. Kennedy saying "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country'.
That would apply to God to 'Not ask what your God can do for You, but what you can do for your God'.

metis said:

Paul was sending donations back to the Church in Jerusalem and tithed himself. Plus the fact is that the early 2nd century Church definitely took in and distributed charitable contributions, so if there was any doubt about this process what that tells us is that it must have been also done prior to the 2nd century. IOW, a continuation.
On top of this, Torah mandated such charitable collections, Jesus and the apostles were all Jewish, therefore they would have obeyed Torah's mandate or violated Torah. The more liberal view of the Law did not kick in until after Jesus was crucified. The Church tried to do things in an organized manner and this was no exception by all indications. Why would they leave such important things up to just individual discernment, thus possibly jeopardizing the widows and orphans and poor? It is very clear that the early Church had expectations of its members and was not a "just do your own thing" entity.
Anyhow, take care.

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The 2nd century is Not 1st-century Christianity. True, the 1st-century congregation was Not a do your own thing.....
Since Pentecost the Christian congregation is NOT under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law.
Before Pentecost the ' were Jewish ' had nothing to do with the Christian congregation 'since' Pentecost.
What about James 1:27 could jeopardize widows and orphans __________
Where does it say Paul tithed ________ Sending donations does Not have to mean tithing.
Under the Mosaic Law tithing was for the Levites' sake because they were Not land owners, etc.

Unveiled Artist said:

I dont know if tihs helps fuel the conversation. Im making a point on my beliefs that my aunt will not have a resurrection. Regardless of what she has done in her life, the fact is when we accept death as a fact without some form of life, its full wisdom. Its knowing that there will be an end; and, our theologies help us with this life.
Anyway, I will try to figure another example. She died this Janurary; and, although I get what you are saying, it is neither her belief nor mine. So....
Any person say Joe Smoe will die. @Deeje mentioned that eternal life is in our genes. What about the belief in the resurrection? How is that in our genes?
I know many want to live forever; but, the details depends on the person not the genes.

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I never quite thought about eternal life being in our genes but being in our minds and hearts because for each day we can think of we can think of a next day.
We can count both forwards and backwards forever and ever, so the concept of eternity is within our thinking ability.
So, putting together: genes, heart and mind we are capable of comprehending about a resurrection.
We learn ' resurrection details ' from outside sources, for Christ's followers that outside source is: The Bible.
Since Jesus had a pre-human heavenly existence before his God sent Jesus to Earth for us, then Jesus had first-hand experience about how we are made and God's purpose for us humans.
God's purpose is Not dead humans, but for most people 'living-forever-on-Earth' humans.
That is why 1 Corinthians 15:26 says our last enemy 'death' will be brought to nothing.
Being 'brought to nothing' means death will cease to exist. Cease to exist on Earth - Isaiah 25:8.
The stopping or ending of death thus means future life for most people.

URAVIP2ME said:

I find the ^ above ^ to be very interesting.
I think Paul also saw the difference between 'ego' and 'devotion' because he penned at Philippians 2:3 to do nothing out of ego. He made the choice to follow (Not divination) but God's wishes - Ezekiel 2:5 B; Ezekiel 33:33
To do nothing out of contentiousness, or out of egotism, but with humility (lowliness of mind) considering others as being superior to you. In other words, take the lead in showing honor to others as per Romans 12:10.
So, like Paul then follow God because of having one's own free-will choices, and Not out of 'I want free will to do what I want to do'. That also reminds me of the 60's saying to 'do your own thing'.
Back in the 60's there was a BIG billboard in town that read to 'Go to the church of your choice'.
It should have read: 'Go to the church of God's choice'.
Kind of like Pres. Kennedy saying "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country'.
That would apply to God to 'Not ask what your God can do for You, but what you can do for your God'.

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Do you kinda see how wanting free will is ego and doing what god wants you to do is not?

I hear a lot that christians want free will so they can make decisions to love (or turn away) from god. Its almost as if its hard to trust god so much to where their decisions are his decisons. They want their own.

I only had one christian who believed in predestination (forgot the name for it) who said why would he is a slave to god.

Why do christians want free will?

URAVIP2ME said:

I never quite thought about eternal life being in our genes but being in our minds and hearts because for each day we can think of we can think of a next day.
We can count both forwards and backwards forever and ever, so the concept of eternity is within our thinking ability.
So, putting together: genes, heart and mind we are capable of comprehending about a resurrection.
We learn ' resurrection details ' from outside sources, for Christ's followers that outside source is: The Bible.
Since Jesus had a pre-human heavenly existence before his God sent Jesus to Earth for us, then Jesus had first-hand experience about how we are made and God's purpose for us humans.
God's purpose is Not dead humans, but for most people 'living-forever-on-Earth' humans.
That is why 1 Corinthians 15:26 says our last enemy 'death' will be brought to nothing.
Being 'brought to nothing' means death will cease to exist. Cease to exist on Earth - Isaiah 25:8.
The stopping or ending of death thus means future life for most people.

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There is no forever. Our bodies, brains, thus minds do not live, they die. They decay. Our soul is just our personality. Our spirit is just the energy that keeps us alive until we decay. Its the last breathe of life.

There is a meditation on death The Buddha talked about. He went through each decaying part of the body so our minds can reflect and understand the nature of life and death. It will come to a balance of peace and not attachment to either side of the road.

Eternal life throws off that balance and opposite of what our thoughts want us to do. Its like our body and spirit fighting against the thoughts and soul in that its saying: yes, we will die. no eternity...and the other says: no. no. no. we cant handle that. we live forever!

Whats wrong with dying without resurrection?

I know you understand the concept of death; but, thats only because you have a back up. There is solace in that backup. If you have nothing to back you up, how would you feel about death (now)?

Unveiled Artist said:

I only had one christian who believed in predestination (forgot the name for it) who said why would he is a slave to god.
Why do christians want free will?

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I find ' free will ' is Not a Christian's want, but what his God wants. God gifted us with free-will choice.
We are all given the freedom to act responsibly toward God.
Christians, according to the Bible, do Not believe in any predestination, that is a false clergy teaching.
No one is a slave, forced to serve God. God leaves that decision up to each one of us.
We all choose whether we want to be a humble person or a haughty one. - Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.

Unveiled Artist said:

There is no forever. Our bodies, brains, thus minds do not live, they die. They decay. Our soul is just our personality. Our spirit is just the energy that keeps us alive until we decay. Its the last breathe of life.
What's wrong with dying without resurrection?
I know you understand the concept of death; but, that's only because you have a back up. There is solace in that backup. If you have nothing to back you up, how would you feel about death (now)?

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Right, I find under present circumstances there is No forever for us.
We can Not resurrect oneself or another that is why we would need someone else to do that for us.
This is where Jesus enters into the resurrection picture.- Revelation 1:18.
There is Nothing wrong with dying without a resurrection. Those of Matthew 12:32 have No resurrection.
Without a ' backup ' then just ' eat, drink, be merry for tomorrow you die'.
No reason for morals or values because nothing would matter how one behaves.