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The Biggest Question

Tumah

Veteran Member
You can never do a proper exegesis of the scriptures; until you realize that every author no matter who he is; has this one thing in common. They're guided by the Spirit of God. Otherwise their writings wouldn't belong in the Bible.

That means that secular exegesis is not enough to understand the scriptures. A secular view of the scriptures is only to try to understand the human writer. To truly understand; you must do exegesis with the aim in mind to understand the thoughts of God Himself.

However, this is impossible without God's help.
The difference between the two of us, is not that we both don't think that you're response is a cop out to avoid addressing the problem. I think we both recognize that. The difference between the two of us, is that you can't admit it while retaining your religious conviction and so you have to ignore it, while I don't have that problem.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
The difference between the two of us, is not that we both don't think that you're response is a cop out to avoid addressing the problem. I think we both recognize that. The difference between the two of us, is that you can't admit it while retaining your religious conviction and so you have to ignore it, while I don't have that problem.

As God said to Moses "See that you make them after their pattern, which has been shown to you on the mountain."

Only God can show you or anyone. I trust God to show His own truth. He's the only one that can give what belongs to Himself.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
As God said to Moses "be sure to make everything after the pattern shown you on the mountain"

Only God can show you or anyone. I trust God to show His own truth. He's the only one that can give what belongs to Himself.

1. Actually if you recall it was Bezalel and Aholiab and not Moses who were the chief architects of the Tabernacle. So clearly Moses was able to convey to them what it was G-d wanted.

2. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this verse as in that case there was no one else available to convey to Moses how the objects of the Tabernacle should appear. There's no comparison to this case where the Word of G-d already conveys it's own message and you are choosing to ignore that message in favor of one that a voice in your head is giving you.

2. You're not trusting G-d's truth, you're doing the opposite. You are putting aside what was surely said by G-d, in favor of what you want G-d to have said. You're adding to G-d's word meanings that are not present in the narratives He had His prophets write, on the basis of your desire for what G-d should have written. Essentially, you trust your own feelings - a man - more than you trust G-d's Word.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
1. Actually if you recall it was Bezalel and Aholiab and not Moses who were the chief architects of the Tabernacle. So clearly Moses was able to convey to them what it was G-d wanted.
But Bezalel was filled with the Spirit of God; so even he was guided by the hand of God.

This is how we should be with the scriptures also. Filled with the same Spirit that was in the prophets.

"Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law."
2. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this verse as in that case there was no one else available to convey to Moses how the objects of the Tabernacle should appear. There's no comparison to this case where the Word of G-d already conveys it's own message and you are choosing to ignore that message in favor of one that a voice in your head is giving you.
Despise not the day of small things. There is nothing small that God ever does. The river that flowed from under the threshold which Ezekiel saw; only grew greater and greater as it went along. Better is the end of a thing than it's beginning.

This was not just a tent; but so much more. As God said "Where is the house that you build me?" And "Where is the place of my rest?"

So what is the pattern; a blueprint? Yes, but a lot more.
2. You're not trusting G-d's truth, you're doing the opposite. You are putting aside what was surely said by G-d, in favor of what you want G-d to have said. You're adding to G-d's word meanings that are not present in the narratives He had His prophets write, on the basis of your desire for what G-d should have written. Essentially, you trust your own feelings - a man - more than you trust G-d's Word.
Ah, baseless accusations. Very good. :D I like to be teachable so prove me wrong.

You believe in Kabbalah. You're not so un-mystical yourself.
 

Angelus5884

New Member
Oh certainly! I'm always happy to help out a beginner (although I'm sure if you kept reading, you'd have found it yourself eventually).

It sounds like you're not interested in any of the non-Gospel scriptural references to Jesus being God (such as his name being called Immanuel--"God with us"--in Isaiah 7:14, or "Mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6)--you're only interested in Jesus portraying Himself as God or the Son of God, right?

So the clearest reference is probably in John 10:30, where Jesus plainly states, "I and the Father are one." I've heard some people mistakenly say that Jesus wasn't calling Himself God here; He was just saying that He and the Father were in agreement. But that's not how his Jewish audience understood Him--they took up rocks to stone Him for blasphemy! And when Jesus asked them why they would stone Him, they said, "because You, a mere Man, make Yourself [out to be] God" (v. 33). And Jesus didn't argue with them, or say, "No I don't!" because their accusation was accurate--He really was claiming to be God.

A couple of chapters before that, the Jews were ready to stone Him for portraying Himself as God in another way--calling Himself the same "I Am" that Jehovah used to refer to Himself in Exodus 3:14 (John 8:58). But Jesus slipped away before they could execute Him for blasphemy.

So those are the two best cases of Jesus calling Himself God, although there are other cases in which He is called God by the people around Him--and He accepts their worship rather than correcting them, thus implying that He is portraying Himself as being worthy of their worship as God. In Matthew 14, when Jesus calmed a storm in a boat, His disciples said, "Truly, you are the Son of God!" And Jesus didn't say, "Oh come on; I'm just a man like the rest of you!" Knowing that He was the Son of God, He accepted their worship as such.

When Thomas doubted the appearance of Jesus after the resurrection, and Jesus had Thomas touch His wounds, Thomas declared His identity--"My Lord and my God!" Again, Jesus didn't say, "Oh stop!" He said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." So again, it's pretty obvious Jesus is portraying Himself as God, even if He's not saying the words Himself.

I hope that's enough to get you started; let me know if I can be of any further assistance!


Hello axe and that you very much for getting back to me. Sorry for the late reply.

I m still not convinced by the answer. Out there there are thousands of bible all saying diffèrent things, and since the bible has being corrupted it’s hard to believe everything in there. But I do believe in the gospel the real one that was sent on Jesus uppon him. I believe in God the only one who has not beggot and not being begotten who has no partner. And I believe in Jesus as the messenger of God and the son of merry.
I enjoy talking with someone who has knowledge and I would love continue sharing information with you if you agree of course.

So let’s start with the son of God.

I takes strong exception to the Christian dogma that "Jesus is the only begotten son, begotten not made". This is what the Christian is made to repeat from childhood in his catechism. I have asked learned - Christians, again and again as to what they are really trying to emphasise, when they say "BEGOTTEN NOT MADE".

And my brothers and sisters Of Christian believe know that according to their own God-given records, God has sons by the tons like :

"....Adam, which was the SON OF GOD."Luke 3:38

"That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair..."
"And when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them...." Genesis 6:2&4

"...Israel is MY SON, even my firstborn:"Exodus 4:22

"...for I (God) and a FATHER to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9

"...the Lord hath said unto me, (David) Thou art MY SON: this day have I BEGOTTEN thee."Psalms 2:7

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS OF GOD." Romans 8:14

Actually in the language of the Jew, every righteous person, every Tom, Dick and Harry who followed the Will and Plan of God, was a SON OF GOD.

It was a metaphorical descriptive term, commonly used among the Jews. The Christian agrees with this reasoning, but goes on to say - "but Jesus was not like that". Adam was made by God. Every living thing was made by God; He is the Lord, Cherisher and Sustainer of all. Metaphorically speaking therefore God is the Father of all. But Jesus was the "BEGOTTEN" son of God, not a CREATED son of God?

Hope to hear from you soon brother
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Hello axe and that you very much for getting back to me. Sorry for the late reply.

I m still not convinced by the answer. Out there there are thousands of bible all saying diffèrent things, and since the bible has being corrupted it’s hard to believe everything in there. But I do believe in the gospel the real one that was sent on Jesus uppon him. I believe in God the only one who has not beggot and not being begotten who has no partner. And I believe in Jesus as the messenger of God and the son of merry.
I enjoy talking with someone who has knowledge and I would love continue sharing information with you if you agree of course.

So let’s start with the son of God.

I takes strong exception to the Christian dogma that "Jesus is the only begotten son, begotten not made". This is what the Christian is made to repeat from childhood in his catechism. I have asked learned - Christians, again and again as to what they are really trying to emphasise, when they say "BEGOTTEN NOT MADE".

And my brothers and sisters Of Christian believe know that according to their own God-given records, God has sons by the tons like :

"....Adam, which was the SON OF GOD."Luke 3:38

"That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair..."
"And when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them...." Genesis 6:2&4

"...Israel is MY SON, even my firstborn:"Exodus 4:22

"...for I (God) and a FATHER to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9

"...the Lord hath said unto me, (David) Thou art MY SON: this day have I BEGOTTEN thee."Psalms 2:7

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS OF GOD." Romans 8:14

Actually in the language of the Jew, every righteous person, every Tom, Dick and Harry who followed the Will and Plan of God, was a SON OF GOD.

It was a metaphorical descriptive term, commonly used among the Jews. The Christian agrees with this reasoning, but goes on to say - "but Jesus was not like that". Adam was made by God. Every living thing was made by God; He is the Lord, Cherisher and Sustainer of all. Metaphorically speaking therefore God is the Father of all. But Jesus was the "BEGOTTEN" son of God, not a CREATED son of God?

Hope to hear from you soon brother

Sorry, but none of this has anything to do with the question you asked me or the answer I gave you.

I am kind of curious why you would ask me to point you in the direction of Biblical evidence of Jesus portraying Himself as God or the Son of God, if you're going to turn around and say that the Bible says all kinds of things and it's hard to believe since it's been corrupted. It would be like me asking you to provide me with evidence of green eggs and ham in the writings of Dr. Seuss, and then turning around and saying that the writings of Dr. Seuss are just fiction anyway, so you don't believe that eggs and ham can be green.

I gave you what you asked for, but it feels like you just deliberately wasted my time for some reason--and now you want to talk about a whole different topic entirely?

I think I'll pass...
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
But Bezalel was filled with the Spirit of God; so even he was guided by the hand of God.
Bezalel was granted intelligence, not information. Moses was the one who provided the information as your earlier source explained.

This is how we should be with the scriptures also. Filled with the same Spirit that was in the prophets.
The prophets were not granted G-d's Spirit in order to understand G-d's Word, they were granted it in order to prophecy.

"Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law."
This seems to be a request for greater intelligence.

Despise not the day of small things. There is nothing small that God ever does. The river that flowed from under the threshold which Ezekiel saw; only grew greater and greater as it went along. Better is the end of a thing than it's beginning.

This was not just a tent; but so much more. As God said "Where is the house that you build me?" And "Where is the place of my rest?"

So what is the pattern; a blueprint? Yes, but a lot more.
I think you should turn to Proverbs 17 to learn about the importance of silence.

Ah, baseless accusations. Very good. :D I like to be teachable so prove me wrong.
There is nothing baseless here, besides your belief in the voice in your head.

You believe in Kabbalah. You're not so un-mystical yourself.
There is no Kaballistic tradition that says, "listen to the voice in your head to interpret verses completely out of their context and original meaning".
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
1. Actually if you recall it was Bezalel and Aholiab and not Moses who were the chief architects of the Tabernacle. So clearly Moses was able to convey to them what it was G-d wanted.

2. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this verse as in that case there was no one else available to convey to Moses how the objects of the Tabernacle should appear. There's no comparison to this case where the Word of G-d already conveys it's own message and you are choosing to ignore that message in favor of one that a voice in your head is giving you.

2. You're not trusting G-d's truth, you're doing the opposite. You are putting aside what was surely said by G-d, in favor of what you want G-d to have said. You're adding to G-d's word meanings that are not present in the narratives He had His prophets write, on the basis of your desire for what G-d should have written. Essentially, you trust your own feelings - a man - more than you trust G-d's Word.

In that case, we Jews should always go from God's Word in Tanakh, which says thousands of times within it's God's Word to man, and not Talmud. Yes?
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Bezalel was granted intelligence, not information. Moses was the one who provided the information as your earlier source explained.
Information needs intelligence to be understood.

Bezalel was granted understanding and Moses information. Both by the Spirit of God.
The prophets were not granted G-d's Spirit in order to understand G-d's Word, they were granted it in order to prophecy.
Only God knows His own thoughts. You must have the Spirit's help to understand the things given by the Spirit.
This seems to be a request for greater intelligence.
You should be praying that.

No one is intelligent enough to understand God's thoughts. Whoever admits they are fools is becoming wiser because they really understand themselves. Because we are all fools compared to God. And even Solomon admitted he was a fool.

Isaiah 29:11-14 pretty much sums up many modern religions including Talmudic Judaism.
There is no Kaballistic tradition that says, "listen to the voice in your head to interpret verses completely out of their context and original meaning".
I do not listen to a voice in my head telling me to interpret verses out of context and original meaning. However, to pretend there are no deeper meanings in the scriptures is to ignore the obvious.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Dude, if you ARE the universe, you're involved. Period.



Are you saying I'm not involved in the hairs on my pinky?

If you want to be a pantheist or a PanDeist--great. Like I said, the more people who believe that Jesus is God, the better. But Deists do not believe that God IS the universe.

But since God created the physical universe, then it's part of God, so IS God. You cannon separate them or the physical universe would not exist.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
FWIW, having studied dozens of different Christian beliefs, I've never met a single one (either group or individual) which was truly sola scriptura. Every single one has added something beyond what the Bible says and also deemed that thing to be important.

FWIW (2): I've also never met a nonChristian which did not add something to their holy writings (when applicable). This is a human nature issue more than any one particular group.

I've been on another forum for many years, and so I fully agree with you on that. That seems to be what the Christians are best at, twisting things around and claiming it says whatever they want it to mean. And no matter how far out in left field their interpretations are, there's no correcting them, it's a life or death battle to them to believe that THEY and only THEY have it "right".
 

islam abduallah

Active Member
I'm Western, American, White Privilege, from po white trash roots. Once it was clear to me that there was a Creator, it was clear that pleasing him was my life task.

It seems clear that the God of Abraham, is the one. There is no intention to criticise any other belief system but they aren't for me, and my time is running out.

If I knew everything I wanted to know there would be no hesitation. Still in the early stages of reading Judaism, I can't draw any conclusions yet.

For now, for me, the biggest question is who is Jesus? Many Christians say that if I do not accept Jesus as the son of God, I will go to Hell. Sadly, those who are adamant about Jesus being the Christ, the Savior, often reject and condemn me because they don't get forgiveness due to contriteness and repentance. May the Creator have mercy. I wish that the God of Jesus had given him better representatives.

I'm most comfortable being Muslim because of the Modesty and the absolute adoration of the Creator Allah SWT. I have nothing to do with Muslims that fight and kill. Who are they? Muslims have varying ideas about Jesus (Isa Peace Be Unto Him) I think the prevailing belief is that he was the best Prophet, and came to Earth to do only the will of Allah SWT, and what Allah SWT told him to do. There may be more but that's the high points.

To my understanding, Muslims regard the Trinity as Idol worship because there can be no Son of God.

So, there's the rub. Maybe I'll meet Allah SWT in honest ignorance?

who knew the reality of Jesus knows the true religion actually, around Jesus the religions followers are fighting, every religion has it's own aspect about him, but for me it;s obvious that he was a man one of adam offspring but without a father even the bible says that too but christians and bible new authors played with tthe verses and trasnlations to create the concept of SON OF GOD which wasn't existing during Jesus life
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
But since God created the physical universe, then it's part of God, so IS God. You cannon separate them or the physical universe would not exist.

This nonsense is based on the premise that if someone creates something, then that thing is a part of them, and cannot be separated from them without ceasing to exist.

Hence the nonsense.
 
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