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Comparing Catholic Beliefs with the Teachings of Jesus in Scripture

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There is not an organization on earth (that has access to children) that is free of these rock spiders. The Boy Scouts....sporting teams....all churches and institutions in positions of trust, and yes, even ours....but nothing equals the magnitude of the problem experienced in Catholic institutions for God only knows how long, probably for as long as they have been in existence.
Any organization can house predators, despite its best attempts to prevent abuse of children. Your church, like the Catholic Church, protects abusers.

Their abuses go back centuries with evidence of the torture perpetrated on innocent people at the order of the Grand Inquisitor. They got away with so much abuse because of the power they wielded over governments.
That's right: the harm of the Catholic Church is much more about the harm that results when we give a religion power and influence, and not really about the specific doctrines of the Church.

I'm actually glad that the JWs don't vote or hold office, because a world - or a country - run according to the teachings of the Watchtower Society would be much worse than how things are in Catholic countries today.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Any organization can house predators, despite its best attempts to prevent abuse of children. Your church, like the Catholic Church, protects abusers.

Just one of the reasons the "shepherds" will all be replaced. (Ezekiel 34:17-23). All will be "judged" (Ezekiel 34:17).
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I'm actually glad that the JWs don't vote or hold office, because a world - or a country - run according to the teachings of the Watchtower Society would be much worse than how things are in Catholic countries today.

South America, including Venezuela and Cuba, are traditionally a Catholic strong hold. For the most part, they are a mess. Europe, the home Continent of the Vatican, is coming apart at the seams. Apparently, in the U.S., the Protestants, although a daughter of the Roman church, are holding the Catholics somewhat in check. The exception being the California Catholics don't have enough Protestants to counter the Liberal Catholics, such as Pelosi. As the "mountains were not found" per Revelation 16:20, that might be a short term problem.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Any organization can house predators, despite its best attempts to prevent abuse of children. Your church, like the Catholic Church, protects abusers.

No we do not. It all depends on whether the victims want to initiate criminal proceedings. Its a harrowing process, but its up to them, not our elders to prosecute the perpetrator.

The law is there for the protection of everyone, who is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. In a crime with no witnesses, they have to be sure that justice is served....even to the perpetrator. They have the ability to rehabilitate themselves and with the right help and supervision can become productive members of society. Its a wiring problem like homosexuality....it gives them sexual attraction to young children...its abhorrent but not something that can't be forgiven if there is a genuine desire to repent. Even murders can do that.

That's right: the harm of the Catholic Church is much more about the harm that results when we give a religion power and influence, and not really about the specific doctrines of the Church.

I couldn't agree more. That is why Jesus told us to be no part of this world and its rulership. We don't elect the ones who are ruining the earth and we don't meddle in political issues at all....last time I looked...you all did. The powers that be are not ruled by God and neither I believe, is the church. Their actions prove it. (1 John 5:19)

I'm actually glad that the JWs don't vote or hold office, because a world - or a country - run according to the teachings of the Watchtower Society would be much worse than how things are in Catholic countries today.

:facepalm: Nothing spouts nonsense like ignorance.

Can you tell me how things would be worse in a world ruled by the teachings of Jesus Christ and his apostles (who were taught by him)? These are the rules we live by.....no war, no immorality, no crime, no racial hatred, no marital infidelity, no exploitation, no poverty, no causes of distress, abundance shared among all, love for our neighbors, and unlimited provision of assistance when it is needed most.

I am looking forward to living in such a world....perhaps it is not appealing to an atheist....? :shrug:
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Well I guess you have to make deductions based on what the rest of scripture says.....like the case with the immaculate conception. Understanding that Mary was simply the 'vehicle' that God used to produce his Messiah, (there had to be a human mother) there was no necessity for Mary to be sinless because God removed all stain of sin with Jesus' conception. Did it not occur to the Catholic hierarchy that if Mary had to make a "sin offering" after Jesus' birth, that she was just as sinful (imperfect) as any other woman. A fine woman indeed, especially favored and chosen by God for this role, but not given

Mary is portrayed by Luke as the first one to hear the gospel about Jesus, Son of God, Son of David; responding to this gospel by a fundamental attitude of a disciple "Be it done unto me according to Your word", Luke's portrait of Mary is of the first Christian disciple. There is no evidence that the NT authors thought of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, and the Church does not pretend that it does. Since Mary was conceived by human parents, resulting from carnal desire according to Augustine, Mary was the first to receive deliverance from universal sin through Christ. The East, though not with the same imaginary, portrays Mary as unique and unmatchable holiness.

Keeping in mind that baptism was full immersion

There were Christian communities with fixed liturgical order. Around 215 Hippolytus gives an account concerning the rite of baptism.
"And at the hour when the cock crows they shall first pray over the water. When they come to the water let the water be pure and flowing.
And they shall put of their clothes. And they shall baptize the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family."



 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
No we do not. It all depends on whether the victims want to initiate criminal proceedings. Its a harrowing process, but its up to them, not our elders to prosecute the perpetrator.
If you know a crime has been committed, you tell the police. If the victim doesn't want to press criminal charges, and if you guys don't want to bring rapists or abusers to justice for whatever God-forsaken reason, then the state most certainly will. Keeping mum about known abusers is protecting them, pure and simple, and everybody has a God-given duty to see justice done, and anybody with a conscience should have a desire for the same.

The law is there for the protection of everyone, who is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. In a crime with no witnesses, they have to be sure that justice is served....even to the perpetrator.
That's not a call for the elders of the Watchtower to make. If you suspect that abuse is going on, it is your duty as Christians and as citizens to report it to the police and help the victim however you can. People who are trained in forensics, criminal justice and law will handle the rest.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If you know a crime has been committed, you tell the police.

That is the law now, so yes, absolutely. Safeguards are in place to protect the minors who have to give evidence, so that they never have to face those abusers or their lawyers in a courtroom.

If the victim doesn't want to press criminal charges, and if you guys don't want to bring rapists or abusers to justice for whatever God-forsaken reason, then the state most certainly will. Keeping mum about known abusers is protecting them, pure and simple, and everybody has a God-given duty to see justice done, and anybody with a conscience should have a desire for the same.

Why are you ranting as if we don't abide by the law? There is no longer keeping "mum" about any of it. The laws have changed and our practices have changed with them.....or didn't you know that? We support the change.

All allegations of child abuse are to be reported now. If you read my previous post Comparing Catholic Beliefs with the Teachings of Jesus in Scripture you will see the explanation of why things today are very different from how things were handled in the past.

That's not a call for the elders of the Watchtower to make.

Nor for the leaders of any of Christendom's churches. I would imagine that the Eastern Orthodox church also has had its share of pedophiles. No organization is immune.

If you suspect that abuse is going on, it is your duty as Christians and as citizens to report it to the police and help the victim however you can. People who are trained in forensics, criminal justice and law will handle the rest.

No kidding.....you think that is somehow a revelation to me? :shrug:
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No we do not. It all depends on whether the victims want to initiate criminal proceedings. Its a harrowing process, but its up to them, not our elders to prosecute the perpetrator
Any person with responsibility for a child has an obligation to report any allegations of abuse to the police as soon as they hear them.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Be careful traveling this path though... Anti-Catholic beliefs can easily turn to bigotry and hatred. Which are sins. I've actually experienced it. It's why I'm here now and not somewhere else.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
. Apparently, in the U.S., the Protestants, although a daughter of the Roman church, are holding the Catholics somewhat in check.

You mean like the way the KKK held Catholics in check?

There's quite a long history of how the Protestants keep people in check. Their obedience to the Catholic bible, however, gives them a sense of pride -even though rotten deeds were/are committed.

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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The Roman Catholic Church formed in the 4th century AD, when Christianity became the official religion of Rome. Rome was not the official secular of Christianity, since Rome was the over lord. Rome made changes to Christianity in line with the Roman way and the needs of the empire; world empire, tough, and lots of intellectual and material wealth.

Jesus said, render onto Caesar what is Caesar's and render onto God was is God's. This 4th century change was anticipated by Jesus and was part of the plan. It would alter Christianity in secular ways that allowed it to be preached to all nations. God rules the realm of mankind and gives it to whomever he wishes.

The merger of Rome and Christianity was not allows pretty, but it was very effective. Consider how the various Christian nations, who were part of the original Holy Roman Empire would go no to explore and even control most of the world over the next 1000 years, Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Russia, Germany, Portugal, etc. Through this exploration and conquest the gospel would be taught.

The merger between Rome and Christianity lasted about 1000 years. In about the 14th century AD, like mother cell about to split into two daughter cells, the merger began to split, with the Roman and Christian aspects beginning to differentiate themselves, into a spectrum of states, from nearly pure Roman; Inquisition, to Pure Christianity and all in between; body of Christ.

Hitler for example, was very heavy on the Roman side of the split; Hitler was Caesar. In 1950 the dogma of the Assumption was defined where Mary Goes to Heaven body and all. This symbolized the daughter cell associated with Christianity had differentiated. Pure Christianity had been hidden in the hand of Rome, until the time the world had changed and it could live in peace; USA and God given rights.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
The Roman church was instituted in the year 325 AD by the Roman Emperor Constantine when he convened the Council of Nicaea. The Roman church is antithetical to the testimony of Yeshua, and is founded on the "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:17), Peter, and the false prophet Paul (Zechariah 11:10), the "staffs" taken to "pasture" the "flock doomed to slaughter"(Zechariah11:7).

Then why do you follow the bible that was completed by the "Roman Church" in the 4th century?
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
That is the law now, so yes, absolutely. Why are you ranting as if we don't abide by the law? There is no longer keeping "mum" about any of it. The laws have changed and our practices have changed with them.....or didn't you know that? We support the change.
So are you saying you're only reporting abusers now because the law says you have to? You wouldn't be reporting them otherwise? Because that's how it's coming across to me.

All allegations of child abuse are to be reported now. If you read my previous post Comparing Catholic Beliefs with the Teachings of Jesus in Scripture you will see the explanation of why things today are very different from how things were handled in the past.
The better approach would have been to advocate for the laws to be changed to protect the victims, rather than avoiding reporting the abuse altogether.

Nor for the leaders of any of Christendom's churches. I would imagine that the Eastern Orthodox church also has had its share of pedophiles. No organization is immune.
Yes. The difference is, we kick ours out when we find out about it. I haven't heard any cases of pedophiliac or adulterous priests being sheltered from the law, though I could be mistaken. I don't think we have any issues of systemic cover-ups like the Catholics have, though.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Then why do you follow the bible that was completed by the "Roman Church" in the 4th century?

I don't follow the "bible completed by the 'Roman Church' the 4th century" (367 AD). That canon contains both the "tare seed", the seed "sowed" by the "enemy" (Matthew 13:25), "lawlessness" (Matthew 13:41),and the "good seed", the message of the kingdom (Matthew 13:19). One must winnow the wheat from the chaff.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The merger of Rome and Christianity was not allows pretty, but it was very effective. Consider how the various Christian nations, who were part of the original Holy Roman Empire would go no to explore and even control most of the world over the next 1000 years, Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Russia, Germany, Portugal, etc. Through this exploration and conquest the gospel would be taught.

The "gospel" taught, was the false gospel of grace/cross, the tare seed, by the false prophet Paul, which your "nations" conquered the world under, per the 312 vision of Sol Invictus to Constantine. The "good seed", the "word of the kingdom", also was published, but not understood (Matthew 13:13), until the "end of the age"/"end of time (Daniel 12:10) & (Matthew 13:39-42), when the tares would be "gathered", and thrown into the furnace of fire.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
You mean like the way the KKK held Catholics in check?

There's quite a long history of how the Protestants keep people in check. Their obedience to the Catholic bible, however, gives them a sense of pride -even though rotten deeds were/are committed.

The KKK, like the Catholics, used both the cross (hanging from a tree) and fire in their quest to conquer the world. The Puritans, who hanged witches, were simply a sect trying to reform their Catholic based religion, who like their mother church, used any means at hand. You will find little difference between the Episcopal/Puritan and Catholic Church. On the other hand, the gun toting, bible thumping, despicables, mostly Protestants, while lost sheep, seem up to the job of road blocking the Catholic elites, such as Pelosi, and the pope and their socialist/communist agendas. Their "Catholic bible", while a "stumbling block", will remain until the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:39-42).
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Be careful traveling this path though... Anti-Catholic beliefs can easily turn to bigotry and hatred. Which are sins. I've actually experienced it. It's why I'm here now and not somewhere else.

Being anti false beliefs is a far cry from being anti-Catholic. My whole family is Catholic. We seem to get along fine. They respect my right to disagree with their beliefs. I think their opinion of the pope is about on par with their low opinion of Obama. But you are generally what you were raised to be. It is a catch 22, if they believe what they were taught be believe, they are supposedly saved from "hell", if they question that belief, they are taught they will roast in hell forever.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I don't follow the "bible completed by the 'Roman Church' the 4th century" (367 AD). That canon contains both the "tare seed", the seed "sowed" by the "enemy" (Matthew 13:25), "lawlessness" (Matthew 13:41),and the "good seed", the message of the kingdom (Matthew 13:19). One must winnow the wheat from the chaff.
So what's your Biblical canon?
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
So what's your Biblical canon?

I have no cannon except for that used by Yeshua, the Law and the prophets. Yeshua's parables, whose understanding was to be kept from those without ears to hear (Matthew 13:13) & (Daniel 12:10), were to be a light to understand the "law and the prophets. Paul's false gospel of grace/cross, was to be the broad way to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13).
 
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