Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

Dawnofhope · Dec 16, 2018

Ellen Brown said:
I think that Islam started falling apart after the passing of Muhammad PBUH. Saudi Islam especially is excessive and a disappointment to me.

I believe Muhammad wanted His son-in-law Ali to be His successor. Instead he was treated shamefully by those whose concern was worldly power. When Ali was finally appointed Caliph it was short lived. Ali was assassinated and Islam quickly plunged to new lows through the Umayyads then the Abbasids. Whatever Islam could have been, never was.

The murder and dismemberment of Khashogghi in a Saudi embassy is incomprehensible to any fair minded observer.

oldbadger · Dec 16, 2018

adrian009 said:
There has been much discussion on RF about the stories of Genesis and how Christians make sense of scripture in the light of modern science.........................................

OldBadger's version of the Noah story:-

So there was this Prophet, see?, well, he was rubbish at teaching and guiding his people 'cos they all thought he was full of BS and wouldn't listen to or even look at 'im.
Even 'is Missus thought he was a joke and, anyway, she liked a slightly different lifestyle to being a good faithful loyal wife to a failed messenger....... if yer knows wot I mean.....

So 'e built this bloomin' great barge and started stuffin' hippos and elephants in to it, but 'e didn't need to stuff whales in it 'cos they can already swim, ok?, and then it started raini'in'. Anyway, so Noah told 'is Missus he was just goin' to bang some more nails in here 'an there on the barge deck, and then all the good decent boring people got on the barge, all moanin' about not bein' able ta move for bleedin' crocodiles and all.

Mrs Noah came out of their tent and called up to Noah,'Ere! You waste of space! You forgot yer tool bag! I'll bring it up!'

But Noah called down to 'er....... 'No probs! Leave it there! Don't go to no trouble.... stay down there an' do the dishes!'

The rain fundered darn and soon after the barge lifted orf an' floated away. Mrs Noah couldn't swim yer see, never needed to, 'cos she never had days out at the seaside.

What's not to believe? :shrug:

Dawnofhope · Dec 16, 2018

oldbadger said:
OldBadger's version of the Noah story:-

So there was this Prophet, see?, well, he was rubbish at teaching and guiding his people 'cos they all thought he was full of BS and wouldn't listen to or even look at 'im.
Even 'is Missus thought he was a joke and, anyway, she liked a slightly different lifestyle to being a good faithful loyal wife to a failed messenger....... if yer knows wot I mean.....

So 'e built this bloomin' great barge and started stuffin' hippos and elephants in to it, but 'e didn't need to stuff whales in it 'cos they can already swim, ok?, and then it started raini'in'. Anyway, so Noah told 'is Missus he was just goin' to bang some more nails in here 'an there on the barge deck, and then all the good decent boring people got on the barge, all moanin' about not bein' able ta move for bleedin' crocodiles and all.

Mrs Noah came out of their tent and called up to Noah,'Ere! You waste of space! You forgot yer tool bag! I'll bring it up!'

But Noah called down to 'er....... 'No probs! Leave it there! Don't go to no trouble.... stay down there an' do the dishes!'

The rain fundered darn and soon after the barge lifted orf an' floated away. Mrs Noah couldn't swim yer see, never needed to, 'cos she never had days out at the seaside.

What's not to believe?

I suppose if Muhammad got to retell the story of Noah for the Quran, you can retell it for the book of Deism!

oldbadger · Dec 16, 2018

adrian009 said:
I suppose if Muhammad got to retell the story of Noah for the Quran, you can retell it for the book of Deism!

Yet wanna see the O-B version of the first week. A real Booker prize right there, innit.

Jollybear · Dec 16, 2018

adrian009 said:
I don't believe anyone has a problem with a local flood. A Prophet of Old calls people to worship the One true God, towards righteousness and calls them away from idol worship. That is the quintessential prophet in the Hebrew Bible.

The people are heedless, mock and ridicule Noah. Eventually a tribulation comes. Those who listened were saved on the Ark of Salvation and those who disbelieve were lost in a sea of tribulation and waywardness. 40 days of rain is a time of testing. Those who were faithful endured spirtually, and those who were insincere perished.

It doesn't bother me in the slightlest that Muslims and Christians may accept the entire account as literal. Having it part literal gives the story power over a mere myth, having aspects that are allegorical frees us to creatively consider the spiritual teachings that are conveyed.

Yea, the mythology view i definitely dont buy that one.

One time as i was debating/discussing with a atheist, he wondered how i would interprete the bible if i wer an atheist.

I told him, i would NOT interprete it as mythology (as in fan fiction). I would interprete it as history, that had misunderstood natural phenomona that the ancients termed miraculous.

But, im not an atheist. But, even still, i think God can manipulate natural phenomena to do his will. And sometimes, he just suspends natural law outright.

There is enough archeological finds to astablish to my satisfaction that the OT and NT are history.

shunyadragon · Dec 16, 2018

Jollybear said:
I dont think its mythology. Interestingly, none of these stories and records come with the tage "mythology" on it.

The ancient cultures viewed mythology as reality as they understood their relationship to our physical existence.

shunyadragon · Dec 16, 2018

Jollybear said:
Yea, the mythology view i definitely dont buy that one.

One time as i was debating/discussing with a atheist, he wondered how i would interprete the bible if i wer an atheist.

I told him, i would NOT interprete it as mythology (as in fan fiction). I would interprete it as history, that had misunderstood natural phenomona that the ancients termed miraculous.

But, im not an atheist. But, even still, i think God can manipulate natural phenomena to do his will. And sometimes, he just suspends natural law outright.

There is enough archaeological finds to astablish to my satisfaction that the OT and NT are history.

Mythology is not 'fan fiction.' Actually the ancient cultures interpretation of natural phenomenon as miraculous is mythology.

The archaeology finds over time have determined that the Bible is a collection of edited, redacted and compiled writings set in history, and most definitely not history, There are too many contradictions, conflicts, and supernatural claims to be considered as history.

Jollybear · Dec 16, 2018

shunyadragon said:
The ancient cultures viewed mythology as reality as they understood their relationship to our physical existence.

I understand what your saying here, but arent you assuming mythology into the ancient records?

There is never a tag that comes with ancient records saying "this part is mythology, this part is not"

Jollybear · Dec 16, 2018

shunyadragon said:
Mythology is not 'fan fiction.' Actually the ancient cultures interpretation of natural phenomenon as miraculous is mythology.

The archaeology finds over time have determined that the Bible is a collection of edited, redacted and compiled writings set in history, and most definitely not history, There are too many contradictions, conflicts, and supernatural claims to be considered as history.

Not everything in the bible has been astablished by archeology. But a good handful of things have.

Are you aware of those?

Jollybear · Dec 16, 2018

shunyadragon said:
Mythology is not 'fan fiction.' Actually the ancient cultures interpretation of natural phenomenon as miraculous is mythology.

Thats an interesting way of looking at it.

One atheist i debated in the past believed mythology in the case of ancient records meant fan fiction.

Even though i like your view of mythology better then the "fan fiction" view, still i think God did manipulate natural phenomona. That means it was still natural, but thought to be supernatural (e.g. how you see mythology). And sometimes i think God let the natural flow do its thing without manipulation.

And sometimes i think God just outright suspended natural laws.

So, 3 things there. Manipulation of natural law, letting natural law flow and suspending natural law. All 3 i think wer mishmashed through the records.

The archaeology finds over time have determined that the Bible is a collection of edited, redacted and compiled writings set in history, and most definitely not history, There are too many contradictions, conflicts, and supernatural claims to be considered as history.

There is some archeology i think astablishes it as history. But, yes, archeology has not astablished everything, yet.

Its interesting how you say too many supernatural avents.

When taken as a whole, it looks like that, but when you consider that each time period, for a long time, very little supernatural things happened.

But, cant God do supernatural things?

shunyadragon · Dec 16, 2018

Jollybear said:
Thats an interesting way of looking at it.

One atheist i debated in the past believed mythology in the case of ancient records meant fan fiction.

Even though i like your view of mythology better then the "fan fiction" view, still i think God did manipulate natural phenomona. That means it was still natural, but thought to be supernatural (e.g. how you see mythology). And sometimes i think God let the natural flow do its thing without manipulation.

By definition 'fan fiction' refers to 20th and 21st century science fiction. Some science fiction does use plots and characters from ancient mythology, but today science fiction is acknowledged as fiction.

And sometimes i think God just outright suspended natural laws.

So, 3 things there. Manipulation of natural law, letting natural law flow and suspending natural law. All 3 i think were mishmashed through the records

This an oft used cope out to explain things in the Bible where there is absolutely no evidence, and the reason the Bible is not history, but writings set in history.
.

There is some archaeology i think establishes it as history. But, yes, archaeology has not established everything, yet.

Its interesting how you say too many supernatural events.

When taken as a whole, it looks like that, but when you consider that each time period, for a long time, very little supernatural things happened.

The best example of a problem of history and archaeology is the story of Noah and the flood. In this case there is a total lach of archaeological, and geological evidence for any such event. Our knowledge of archaeology, technology of the time to build such a boat, and geology goes far beyond any possibility that the story is history.

But, cant God do supernatural things?

Yes, but supernatural explanations cannot be used to explain every thing especially where evidence, and references in history are contradictory and conflicting.

W3bcrowf3r · Dec 16, 2018

adrian009 said:
There has been much discussion on RF about the stories of Genesis and how Christians make sense of scripture in the light of modern science. I thought it would be interesting to examine Muslim beliefs as there are many similarities between what Christians and Muslims believe in regards Noah.

Noah (Nuh in Arabic) is an important character in Islamic tradition, as well as in Christianity and Judaism. The exact time period when Noah lived is unknown, but according to tradition, it is estimated to be ten generations or ages after Adam (who is also the same Adam in Genesis). It is reported that Noah lived to be 950 years old (Qur'an 29:14).

It is believed that Noah was a Prophet of Allah and his people lived in the northern part of ancient Mesopotamia an arid, dry area, several hundred kilometers from the sea. The Qur'an mentions that the ark landed on "Mount Judi" (Qur'an 11:44), which many Muslims believe is in present-day Turkey. Noah was married and had four sons.

Noah called upon his people to give up their idol-worship and worship the One True God Allah. He preached this message for many years. However the people rejected Noah's message and ridiculed Him. It is described in the Quran how people thrust their fingers into their ears so as not to hear his voice, and when he continued to preach to them using signs, they then covered themselves with their garments so as not to even see him.

Allah told Noah that the people had transgressed their limits and would be punished as an example for future generations. Allah inspired Noah to build an ark, which he completed despite great difficulty. After the ark was completed, Noah filled it with pairs of living creatures and he and his followers boarded. Soon, the land was drenched with rain and a flood destroyed everything on land. Noah and his followers were safe on the ark, but one of his own sons and his wife were among the disbelievers destroyed.

The story of Noah is mentioned in the Quran in several places, most notably in the Surah Noah (Chapter 71). The story is expanded upon in other sections as well.

"The people of Nuh rejected the apostles. Behold, their brother Noah said to them: 'Will you not fear Allah? I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust. So fear Allah, and obey me. No reward to I ask of you for it; my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds" (26:105-109).

"He said, 'Oh my Lord! I have called to my people night and day. But my call only increases their flight from the right way. And every time I have called to them, that You might forgive them, they have thrust their fingers into their ears, covered themselves up with their garments, grown obstinate, and given themselves up to arrogance" (Quran 71:5-7).

"But they rejected him, and We delivered him, and those with him, in the Ark. But We overwhelmed in the flood those who rejected Our signs. They were indeed a blind people!" (7:64).

The flood that destroyed the people of Noah is described in the Qur'an as a punishment for people who disbelieved in Allah and the message brought by Prophet Noah. There has been some debate amonsgt Muslims over whether this was a global event or an isolated one. According to Islamic teachings, the Flood was intended as a lesson and punishment for a single group of wicked, disbelieving people, and it is not assumed to be a global event, as is believed in other faiths. However, many ancient Muslim scholars interpreted the Qur'anic verses as describing a global flood, which modern scientists theorize is impossible according to the archaeological and fossil record. Other scholars state that the geographic impact of the flood is unknown, and could have been local.

So having considered the uncertainties within Islam about the global nature of the flood, how about the practicalities of building the ark and gathering all the animals. How does living for 950 years work?

Baha'is, like Muslims and Christians believe Noah was a real prophet, but much of the story was allegorical and not to be taken literally. There wasn't a world wide flood and He certainly didn't live to be 950 years of age.

The Tora mentioned that Noah lived 950 years as well.

What if the food was better before the flood? We see that the people start living lesser and lesser. What if a certain food that they were eating wasn't there anymore after the flood?

Jesus Christ raised dead people as a sign. And healed the blind. And healed lepers. What if it is true? What if it's not allegorical? Everything is possible with Gods Power after all?

shunyadragon · Dec 16, 2018

W3bcrowf3r said:
The Torah mentioned that Noah lived 950 years as well.

What if the food was better before the flood? We see that the people start living lesser and lesser. What if a certain food that they were eating wasn't there anymore after the flood?

Jesus Christ raised dead people as a sign. And healed the blind. And healed lepers. What if it is true? What if it's not allegorical? Everything is possible with Gods Power after all?

None of your questions above have reasonable answers.

Yes, the powers of God would be without bounds, but there is more evidence to demonstrate that much of the Pentateuch and the rest of the OT is riff with mythology. The story of Noah and the flood has many problems other than the age of Noah. The flood itself, and the ability of people at the time to build such a seaworthy boat based on their limited Bronze Age technology The contemporary knowledge of archaeology, technology, and geology pretty much eliminates the possibility of this story as history. The evidence that it is based on older Sumarian mythology accounts, and a catastrophic flood of the Tigris Euphrates valley probably ~2900 BCE.

Jollybear · Dec 16, 2018

shunyadragon said:
By definition 'fan fiction' refers to 20th and 21st century science fiction. Some science fiction does use plots and characters from ancient mythology, but today science fiction is acknowledged as fiction.

This an oft used cope out to explain things in the Bible where there is absolutely no evidence, and the reason the Bible is not history, but writings set in history.

I dont agree its a cop out via only explanation. There is SOME archeology that astablishes parts of the bible as actual history, not just a book written in history. That handful of archeological finds is real. I can give you the source, listing some of those if you wish?

The best example of a problem of history and archaeology is the story of Noah and the flood. In this case there is a total lach of archaeological, and geological evidence for any such event. Our knowledge of archaeology, technology of the time to build such a boat, and geology goes far beyond any possibility that the story is history.

There is much evidence for a flood, even if just local.

Theres many extra biblical sources showing a flood, which leads me to believe there was a flood.

Yes, but supernatural explanations cannot be used to explain every thing especially where evidence, and references in history are contradictory and conflicting.

So far all weve done is astablish our views. It be interesting where it lead if we discussed in detail some of the data.

If you want to, trust me, im respectful. Some people get disrespectful debating or discussing aposite views, i dont (unless im attacked, then it gets hard, lol).

Ellen Brown · Dec 16, 2018

adrian009 said:
Exactly. All we really have is what the Quran or Torah say. There isn’t one piece of hard archeological evidence that supports the great flood ( and it is the same event) recorded in these books.

I don't need any Biblical, or Quranic story to be true to live a life pleasing to the Creator, no matter what He is called.

shunyadragon · Dec 16, 2018

Jollybear said:
I dont agree its a cop out via only explanation. There is SOME archeology that astablishes parts of the bible as actual history, not just a book written in history. That handful of archaeological finds is real. I can give you the source, listing some of those if you wish?

Over the years I have seen them all, and yes there are archaeological finds that confirm individual events, facts and people in the Bible, but there are also many, many finds that demonstrates contradictions and very real problems with Biblical accounts. Many cited by @joeil

There is much evidence for a flood, even if just local.

Theres many extra biblical sources showing a flood, which leads me to believe there was a flood.

Please cite at your own risk, There have been many threads on this topic and there is absolutely no evidence, none, zip, nada, negatory evidence for a world flood.

As a geologist, soil scientist with over 50 years experience world wide there is no evidence for Noah's flood.

So far all we've done is establish our views. It be interesting where it lead if we discussed in detail some of the data.

If you want to, trust me, i'm respectful. Some people get disrespectful debating or discussing aposite views, i don't (unless i'm attacked, then it gets hard, lol).

I will only question your sources and not attack you.

The following is only one of many threads that address the problems of Noah and the flood.

Localized Flood

I referred to this before, but again . . . This is the standard I go by concerning academic history.

I would like to recommend a Reference for Historical Methodology. It is a reasonable reading level and comprehensive. There are more expensive and more involved academically, but this is a very good reference.

The Methods and Skills of History: A Practical Guide by Michael J. Salevouris (Author), Conal Furay (Contributor).

This thread goes into more detail with academic history references, particularly the posts of @gnostic and @joeir :

ONCE AGAIN! Facts in the Bible is supported by archaeology.

spirit_of_dawn · Dec 16, 2018

adrian009 said:
So having considered the uncertainties within Islam about the global nature of the flood, how about the practicalities of building the ark and gathering all the animals. How does living for 950 years work?

Baha'is, like Muslims and Christians believe Noah was a real prophet, but much of the story was allegorical and not to be taken literally. There wasn't a world wide flood and He certainly didn't live to be 950 years of age.

This is obviously a response to the other thread I created where I showed Baha'u'llah believes the flood is real and it had encompassed all earth and destroyed everything:

Noah's Flood from a Baha'i perspective, fact or fantasy?

Unfortunately if our Baha'i friend here has paid more attention to the writings of Baha'u'llah he would have noticed that Baha'u'llah also believed that Noah had lived for at least 950 years:

“Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call.” (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i Iqan)

And as usual, faced with a dilemma, his successor without providing any meaningless argument contradicts the founder and claims:

"The years of Noah are not years as we count them, and as our teachings do not state that this reference to years means His dispensation, we cannot interpret it this way." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 25, 1950; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1659)

I have rarely seen a statement in Baha'i scripture that has not been contradicted by one or all the leaders.

spirit_of_dawn · Dec 16, 2018

Ellen Brown said:
It is my opinion that Islam has lots in common with Jewish belief and that the flood is taken seriously. There also used to be a bit circulation about the Moon splitting and I have no idea where that came from in Islam. It is perhaps an artifact from pre-Islamic beliefs? I sometimes wonder if the very advanced Arabs (Egyptians) had come up with a Telescope and seen lunar rilles? Just an idle thought whilst enjoying a bit of IPA.

Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and all true religions are from the same God so you'd expect to see more or less the same concepts. Judaism has as many differences with Islam as it has similarities. For example, the story of Lot being intoxicated by his daughters and then raped by them, or stories of other Prophets committing adultery are categorically denied in the Shia Islamic belief. Prophets have to be infallible if they are to guide other people to guidance. That is why we believe the stories in the Old and New Testament have suffered from distortion because obviously God would not dispatch such Prophets.

As for the moon splitting, it was considered a miracle from an Omnipotent God. I don't expect someone who does not believe in God or miracles to believe this event ever occurred.

CG Didymus · Dec 16, 2018

CG Didymus said:
Now between Christians and Muslims there are contradictions. Christians don't have Noah's son and wife being destroyed is the main one. But, if the story is not literal, why would Muhammad, the one sent to correct the misinterpretations of the previous messengers... why would he support the belief?

adrian009 said:
I doubt if Muhammad was concerned with the types of questions that have emerged for Christianity through the European Renaissance some thousand or so years after Islam emerged.

Like the prophets of the Baha'i Faith corrected the "false" beliefs of Christians that Jesus was God, that he physically rose from the dead and that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed by Abraham... Why didn't the angel tell the truth about the Flood to Muhammad? That way, he could correct the false belief about the Flood being a true and literal event? But instead, Muhammad supports the belief and lets people continue to think the Flood was a real, historical event?

CG Didymus said:
But then, if God did it to destroy the wicked and kill the Nephilim then he failed. So what was God's point? Evil continued. If it is a myth, but told to people as if true, then there is a very good point... believe in an invisible God that destroyed disbelieving evil people before and he will do it again. But, if science can show that it is extremely unlikely that such a thing could have ever happened, and the people never lived to be hundreds of years old, then God loses credibility. His "Word" cannot be taken as "literal" truth... only "symbolic", metaphorical truth, or... it's fictional and nothing but a myth.

adrian009 said:
But isn’t that the classic straw man? Portray scripture as something that was never intended in the first place? Of course the best mythology relies on a plausible narrative that it could have been real. So perhaps there’s truth, even in your straw man.

Please explain why you think this is a "classic" strawman? If the Flood is literally true, than God wanted to rid the world of evil people. He failed. If the story is myth, and known to be myth by the people, why would they fear a mythological God that destroyed a mythological people for being evil by sending a mythological flood? But, if they thought the story true, they would be afraid of an all-powerful invisible God that hates evil and can and will destroy people that do evil.

Then the question about science disproving the Flood. Doesn't the "Word" of God lose credibility as being trustworthy and true if the events written in his Word didn't really happen?

spirit_of_dawn · Dec 16, 2018

adrian009 said:
I believe Muhammad wanted His son-in-law Ali to be His successor. Instead he was treated shamefully by those whose concern was worldly power. When Ali was finally appointed Caliph it was short lived. Ali was assassinated and Islam quickly plunged to new lows through the Umayyads then the Abbasids. Whatever Islam could have been, never was.

In the belief of Shia Islam the only person that has the right to choose the successor to a Prophet is the same one that dispatched that Prophet: meaning God. So Muhammad had no say in who should or could be his successor. It was God that chose Ali, no one else had a say in this not even the Prophet.

Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

Do Islamic beliefs about Noah contradict science?

Yes

No

To a certain extent, yes

This Poll doesn't reflect my thinking

I don't know

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