Is salvation a Person or a concept?

shmogie · Dec 14, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
I knew one of you would snag this post. Have you read my post?

1. Following christ in his life, death, and resurection is how one is born again; by serving others you serve christ. The gift is only useful when opened, lived, repented, and risen in salvation. It means nothing without using it.

2. Please read my post.

I did not say works. Are you regurgitating anti-works conversations without fully reading what Im speaking of?

I know exactly what you are speaking of. In Christian theology works are anything done to achieve or maintain salvation..

Interestingly, you left out the word faith, the key word of the Protestant reformation, sola fide.

Albert Schweitzer, a physician, spent his entire life suffering in Africa to serve the tribes there.He read and quoted the Bible regularly, he stated numerous times that he modeled his life on Christs teachings, yet he was an atheist.

You imply that good deeds are part of salvation , and without them, salvation doesn't exist.,

Simply not so. Salvation is by Faith alone. Nothing else has anything to do with it.,

Unveiled Artist · Dec 14, 2018

shmogie said:
I know exactly what you are speaking of. In Christian theology works are anything done to achieve or maintain salvation..

Interestingly, you left out the word faith, the key word of the Protestant reformation, sola fide.

Albert Schweitzer, a physician, spent his entire life suffering in Africa to serve the tribes there.He read and quoted the Bible regularly, he stated numerous times that he modeled his life on Christs teachings, yet he was an atheist.

You imply that good deeds are part of salvation , and without them, salvation doesn't exist.,

Simply not so. Salvation is by Faith alone. Nothing else has anything to do with it.,

You gotta read my post. I'll break it down for you. Give me a sec.

shmogie · Dec 14, 2018

Quintessence said:
The concept of salvation is pretty foreign to many religious traditions, my own included. It's not really a thing in Unitarian Universalism (which is non-creedal anyway), nor is it really a thing in contemporary Paganism, it isn't a thing in Druidry either, and it isn't a thing in my own expression of UU Pagan Druidry.

That is one of the reasons why Christianity is totally different from virtually any other religion on earth.

Unveiled Artist · Dec 14, 2018

@shmogie

I would be happy to discuss it with you and break it down; but, this is not a debate thread. I can make another thread but you gotta read my posts.

shmogie · Dec 14, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
@shmogie

I would be happy to discuss it with you and break it down; but, this is not a debate thread. I can make another thread but you gotta read my posts.

Perhaps if you post your ideas a little clearer for guys like me. Truly, I wasn't sure what you were trying to say about salvation, sorry

spirit_of_dawn · Dec 14, 2018

Considering the fact that our worldly lives are limited and we will eventually die but in the hereafter our lives are eternal, then I think one could safely assume: If you end up in heaven in the hereafter that is the only real salvation there is.

icehorse · Dec 14, 2018

shmogie said:
You are correct. Salvation is truth. Christ said " I am the way, the truth, and the life"

My sense is that you and the OP have a similar stance. It's also consistent with things I've heard before.

As an atheist, it strikes me that if your god is even somewhat like how your'e describing him, then he's at best cruel and sadistic. For example, we can extrapolate that on the one hand he's granted us critical thinking capabilities, and then on the other hand, if we don't abandon these cognitive gifts, based on extremely poor evidence, he's going to torture us?

URAVIP2ME · Dec 14, 2018

YeshuaLovesYou said:
Everyone regardless of religious affiliation is welcome to express their thoughts. I personally believe Salvation is the Person of Jesus Christ. He also goes by Yeshua, the Hebrew word for salvation. Just my religious opinion, but I want to hear yours.

I find, Jesus' name in the Greek would be ' I.e.sous ' and also in Hebrew as 'Yehoh.shu'a'.
Whereas the Hebrew Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is Yehwah, Yehwih' and/or Yeho.wah' for God's name.
Since Jesus always gave all the credit to his Father, then Salvation comes from God through Jesus.
Jesus tells us to endure to the end in order to be saves ( delivered / rescued ) at Matthew 24:13.
So, to me that means endure faithful to death, or endure faithful to the 'coming time of separation' on Earth.
Separation when Jesus will separate the figurative humble ' sheep ' from the haughty ' goats - Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Then, those humble ' sheep'-like ones on Earth will be 'saved/delivered/rescued' through the coming ' great tribulation ' of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.

URAVIP2ME · Dec 14, 2018

spirit_of_dawn said:
Considering the fact that our worldly lives are limited and we will eventually die but in the hereafter our lives are eternal, then I think one could safely assume: If you end up in heaven in the hereafter that is the only real salvation there is.

I find when Jesus' promised that humble meek people would inherit the Earth, that Jesus was referring to Psalms 37:9-11. So, to me Earth is also a salvation for the majority of mankind - John 3:13.
I say majority because ones who died before Jesus died can only have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection.
That includes people like King David as per Acts of the Apostles 2:34; John the Baptizer as per Matthew 11:11 who also died before Jesus died, so they will have a physical resurrection during Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth.
That to me is why the ' future tense ' is used at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection....
So, besides Heaven for some (like those of Luke 22:28-30), the other salvation is for everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Revelation 22:2 reveals when there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations.
'Healing' for earth's nations because mankind will see the return on Earth of the Genesis " Tree of Life " on Earth.
'Healing' on Earth as also described at Isaiah 35th chapter.

Vinayaka · Dec 14, 2018

Quintessence said:
The concept of salvation is pretty foreign to many religious traditions, my own included. It's not really a thing in Unitarian Universalism (which is non-creedal anyway), nor is it really a thing in contemporary Paganism, it isn't a thing in Druidry either, and it isn't a thing in my own expression of UU Pagan Druidry.

Certainly not a thing in Hinduism either.

URAVIP2ME · Dec 14, 2018

icehorse said:
................. For example, we can extrapolate that on the one hand he's granted us critical thinking capabilities, and then on the other hand, if we don't abandon these cognitive gifts, based on extremely poor evidence, he's going to torture us?

There is No Scripture that says God will torture us, rather that only the wicked will be ' destroyed forever '.
Roasting forever is a religious-myth teaching formulated in Christendom ( apostate Christianity ).
The two (2) choices given us as found at 2 Peter 3:9 is to either ' repent ' or ' perish ' (be destroyed ).
If everyone on Earth obeyed or lived by the Golden Rule we would have No wickedness on Earth.
God will only bring to ruin those ruining Earth as per Revelation 11:18 B.

URAVIP2ME · Dec 14, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Yes. Its just: We are broken. We cant save ourselves. We need someone of authority to save us so we will never die. Others should follow our lead. In a nutshell.

Yes, so that we will never die, but also the dead can Not resurrect oneself or another, so the dead need someone who can resurrect the dead. According to Scripture, I find Jesus can and will resurrect the dead - Revelation 1:18.

There are those of us still alive on Earth at the coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 who can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth right into calendar Day One of Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth in righteousness for a thousand years when enemy death will be No more on Earth.
- 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 5:8.

URAVIP2ME · Dec 14, 2018

shmogie said:
Yes, and no. We are all born broken, but we can be saved from death eternal

Yes, saved as Jesus said at Matthew 24:13 to endure to the end in order to be saved.
So, endure faithful to death, or for the living faithful to the coming 'time of separation' on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.

Unveiled Artist · Dec 14, 2018

Vinayaka said:
Certainly not a thing in Hinduism either.

I wonder if salvation is a minority belief compared to all world religions. Just because there are more people who believe it, doesnt mean the theology is popular among all other beliefs.... hm.

Vinayaka · Dec 14, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
I wonder if salvation is a minority belief compared to all world religions. Just because there are more people who believe it, doesnt mean the theology is popular among all other beliefs.... hm.

I definitely see a trend amongst some folks not to see the much wider picture than what's under the Abrahamic fold. Remember the difficulty we had with 'very different paradigm' in that long thread? So often my vote on these types of things is 'neither'. Maybe there should be a separate section in comparative religion just for the big 3.

Unveiled Artist · Dec 14, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
Yes, so that we will never die, but also the dead can Not resurrect oneself or another, so the dead need someone who can resurrect the dead. According to Scripture, I find Jesus can and will resurrect the dead - Revelation 1:18.

There are those of us still alive on Earth at the coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 who can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth right into calendar Day One of Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth in righteousness for a thousand years when enemy death will be No more on Earth.
- 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 5:8.

We will die. No eternal life.

I dont know your point in relation to my post.

icehorse · Dec 14, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
1 - There is No Scripture that says God will torture us, rather that only the wicked will be ' destroyed forever '.

2 - Roasting forever is a religious-myth teaching formulated in Christendom ( apostate Christianity ).
The two (2) choices given us as found at 2 Peter 3:9 is to either ' repent ' or ' perish ' (be destroyed ).

3 - If everyone on Earth obeyed or lived by the Golden Rule we would have No wickedness on Earth.
God will only bring to ruin those ruining Earth as per Revelation 11:18 B.

I stretched out and numbered a few of your points..

It seems like all 3 of your points boil down to god creating and then punishing us. Still seems cruel and sadistic to me. Not to you?

Segev Moran · Dec 15, 2018

YeshuaLovesYou said:
Everyone regardless of religious affiliation is welcome to express their thoughts. I personally believe Salvation is the Person of Jesus Christ. He also goes by Yeshua, the Hebrew word for salvation. Just my religious opinion, but I want to hear yours.

Salvation is a state of mind.
One can find salvation regardless of he's beliefs.
In the Jewish belief, when the messiah will arrive, he's coming will cause a global salvation.
As it is described, the salvation will be a thing of choice, those who will choose to find salvation will follow the word of the messiah and those who will choose otherwise will face more harsh future.

wellwisher · Dec 15, 2018

icehorse said:
I'm reading this thread from the perspective of being an atheist. It seems to me you theists are all tacitly agreeing to some definition of the word "salvation" that is specific to Christianity? I'm just guessing you guys are meaning something like "we're all born broken and jesus will save us from ourselves". is that more or less the idea, or is it something else?

Salvation is a process that leads us to a state of mind where we are running on all cylinders. Most people are not running on all cylinders, most of the time, due to neurosis, personal problems, inhibitions, repressions, desires, irrationalities, lack of opportunity, peer pressures, mass mind, the hardest of others, etc. A path to salvation helps one overcome these distractions that bog you down. The born again approach is like bringing the tired old car to the shop for a new motor and drive train. It involves discarding the old ways that bogged you down so you can run free on the open road ; Spirit.

YeshuaRedeemed · Dec 15, 2018

Segev Moran said:
Salvation is a state of mind.
One can find salvation regardless of he's beliefs.
In the Jewish belief, when the messiah will arrive, he's coming will cause a global salvation.
As it is described, the salvation will be a thing of choice, those who will choose to find salvation will follow the word of the messiah and those who will choose otherwise will face more harsh future.

I agree. That is what I believe too.

Is salvation a Person or a concept?

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