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European Integration

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Many European states - including big boys like Germany, Italy and Spain - are relatively ‘recent’ conglomerations of smaller national units, while all EU states - pretty much - are “unions” formed between a range of semi-sovereign or once sovereign national/ethnic groups.

The UK is an emblematic example.

For some reason, certain people - nationalists, let's say - are comfortable with this when it comes to France, Germany, the UK, Spain, Belgium etc. (all comprised of a patchwork of formerly independent polities with long histories behind them and unique cultures - just ask my fellow Scots in Britain or the Bavarians in Germany, the Bretons in France and the Catalans in Spain) but resist the logic of extending this narrative to Europe as a whole and moreover presents the EU as some kind of historic aberration or anomaly.

In fact, the EU is the culmination of a trend spanning centuries - if not millennia - in Europe (and the wider world, for that matter).

The gradual formation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is, somewhat ironically, like EU integration “in miniature”. England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales moved from a state of near-constant warfare, massacre and violence throughout the 16th-17th centuries; before adopting a common crown, parliament, government, currency, laws and so on in the 18th and 19th centuries (albeit Ireland did an Irexit in 1922 that was far more bloody, internecine and chaotic than Brexit).

To this day, Scotland and England (to take one example) remain distinct countries within the British nation-state, with Scots retaining our own legal system since 1707 and devolved parliamentary government from 1999 i.e.

Scots law - Wikipedia

Scots law is the legal system of Scotland. It is a hybrid or mixed legal system containing civil law and common law elements, that traces its roots to a number of different historical sources.

Early Scots law before the 12th century consisted of the different legal traditions of the various cultural groups who inhabited the country at the time.

Scots law recognises four sources of law: legislation, legal precedent, specific academic writings, and custom. Legislation affecting Scotland may be passed by the Scottish Parliament, the United Kingdom Parliament, and the European Union. Some legislation passed by the pre-1707 Parliament of Scotland is still also valid.

Since the Union with England Act 1707, Scotland has shared a legislature with England and Wales. Scotland retained a fundamentally different legal system from that south of the border. Since the UK joined the European Union, Scots law has also been affected by European law

While Scots and English are both British (and identify as such, in the main), you’d be a brave person indeed to confuse a Scotsman for an Englishman face-to-face. Our sub-national, or national, identities remain within the Union - just like with EU member states.

In Europe, the cognate to the Scottish-English relationship is that between France and Germany: former longstanding foes, now united under common institutions and a single supranational European identity.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I have read that sovereignty follows upon the heels of economic unity -- and has been doing so in Europe ever since the 1200s. I don't know how true that is, but I suspect there's at least some general truth to it. If so, then economic globalization -- to say nothing of economic unity in Europe -- should eventually be followed by a common government.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
Culture will always trump economics. Why did so many Scots vote for independence, although it's obvious that separation from Britain would lead to tax increases? Why did the Czechs and Slovaks separate? — very different world views.

I always find it ironic that USians speak out in favour of European integration (a word of advice: mind your own business) when their own country is split by the "culture war" and has never completely recovered from the Civil War.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I always find it ironic that USians speak out in favour of European integration (a word of advice: mind your own business) when their own country is split by the "culture war" and has never completely recovered from the Civil War.

The US has as much right to speak out on European matters as Europeans have to speak out on American matters. Case in point: Issues surrounding European integration seem to have had in the past noticeable effects on the lives and fortunes of millions of Americans. Or have you not heard of how a divided Europe led to two World Wars, both of which sucked in America? And those are just two of perhaps a thousand ways Europe affects America.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The EU wants to suppress national identities.
Fortunately we're witnessing a resurrection of nationalism...for example South Tyroleans want the annexation with Austria...that's good.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Culture will always trump economics. Why did so many Scots vote for independence, although it's obvious that separation from Britain would lead to tax increases? Why did the Czechs and Slovaks separate? — very different world views.

I always find it ironic that USians speak out in favour of European integration (a word of advice: mind your own business) when their own country is split by the "culture war" and has never completely recovered from the Civil War.

Huh? USians' speak in many voices not just one! Sometimes we do elect someone, a leader to speak for us as one voice, but the leaders voice becomes diluted in direct ratio to its power. Anyway, history should tell you that the USA's citizens prefer to stay out of European wars, well unless the USA is directly attacked. If I had the power I would isolate the free (as is possible) western hemisphere's democratic nations as well as our intentional friends, but that is material for another thread. To sum up my reply, all nations have skeletons in their closets, the USA is no exception. That said, despite dem' bones we are still blessed as a nation, becoming a superpower in a couple hundred years +, and that's all good!
 
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Jumi

Well-Known Member
Sad to say, but any unity in the EU I feel is for fellow Nordics, I understand what they think and share the same values. Rest of EU is like a foreign country and it is a foreign country. It's not like you cross the border from one state to the other in the US or go from London to Glasgow.

The EU itself doesn't care much for the little ones. It's the big economic powerhouses that make rules that don't care if the smaller countries lose out. If the system worked a lot better, I'd be fine with it. I did originally want to join the EU, but now all these laws being revoted in for the detriment for the internet and how my country's economy is permanently screwed because EU doesn't understand Russia... much thanks, but I'd rather go Nordic Union.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Sad to say, but any unity in the EU I feel is for fellow Nordics, I understand what they think and share the same values. Rest of EU is like a foreign country and it is a foreign country. It's not like you cross the border from one state to the other in the US or go from London to Glasgow.

The EU itself doesn't care much for the little ones. It's the big economic powerhouses that make rules that don't care if the smaller countries lose out. If the system worked a lot better, I'd be fine with it. I did originally want to join the EU, but now all these laws being revoted in for the detriment for the internet and how my country's economy is permanently screwed because EU doesn't understand Russia... much thanks, but I'd rather go Nordic Union.
Jumi has moved to our side?
Thank You God!
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
The EU wants to suppress national identities.
Fortunately we're witnessing a resurrection of nationalism...for example South Tyroleans want the annexation with Austria...that's good.
Maybe we could integrate further while respecting national identities. The EU doesn't have to last forever and the end of the EU doesn't have to be the end of integration.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member

EU president... can you imagine though, some elected by the people president behaving this way? Surprised him and Trump aren't best buddies...
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member

EU president... can you imagine though, some elected by the people president behaving this way? Surprised him and Trump aren't best buddies...
Actually this drunkard-clown is the president of the European Commission
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Maybe we could integrate further while respecting national identities. The EU doesn't have to last forever and the end of the EU doesn't have to be the end of integration.

Despite the dumb Trump bashing for comments he made about being favorable to nationalism, I too believe there is nothing wrong and much right with 'moderate nationalism', when nationalism is defined as the love of ones country. Yes, moderate nationalism was what Trump meant when he said he was a 'nationalist'. However and ever true to form the evil double-speaking bashers would have the naive believe Trump meant the kind of nationalism that defined the Nazi Party (NSDAP) of Germany in the WW2 era. Also addressing your reply specifically, I agree, if the EU goes away completely that shouldn't change policies already considered or applied. Of course integration will become more complicated if only for the increased number of entities involved (as the EU changes). The (good) intent of those being integrated as well as the nation accepting them will also contribute to a peaceful solution both in Europe and the USA.
 
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