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Atheists: What would you consider credible communication from God?

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I think I understand. Let me restate your arguments, to ensure I understand?

1) You've written a better book(s) than the number one bestselling, most read book, ever..

That would be a false claim by you: the bible was never the #1 best selling, most read *anything*. Classic false claims made by bible-believers for years, and absolutely not remotely accurate.

Heck, Harry Potter books outsold the bible years ago, and? People bought those to read.

The vast majority of all bibles ever printed were never read by anyone, at any time--- they languish on shelves, in pews, or in the corner because they were given, and the receiver has no desire to read the dammnable thing, but didn't want to just toss it out...

The majority of bibles were printed as propaganda anyway-- never to actually be read.
2) The Bible is inconsistent, self-contradictory, powerless--this would explain why currently, it has inspired 40,000 different people movements, who go beyond voting or simple affirmation to spending their time, money and life adhering to these movements..

Because people are quite gullible? If the bible were 1/10 as "good" as people claim?

Why are there 40,000 different, competing, brands of "christian"? If the bible was all that?

THERE WOULD ONLY EVER BE ONE FLAVOR OF CHRISTIAN.
3) If God exists, we'd have a modern, recently created re-Bible, not a timeless, evergreen Bible that is the explanatory power of #s 1 and 2 above.

???? Both #1 and #2 above were 100% false... so...

I expect an actual DIVINE BEING to do BETTER than a bronze age book that says slavery is fine, rape gets you a free bride, and murder is not only okay? It's mandatory too-- for the most trivial of things.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I suppose that is possible that there is an expectation; then again I have NO IDEA what God is thinking or what He expects.

Yet you often talked about this very subject as if you do.

I am not very familiar with the OT, and that is an understatement. However, I do not really believe God actually did what was attributed to Him in the OT.

Same as per the order genocides.

Call it hearsay if you like but the only communication we can get from God is through the Messengers, IMB (in my belief). It is a very curious thing to me that people want to hear directly from God. I would not want to even if I could. I like having a buffer zone between me and an ALL-Powerful God.

Assumption made to defend hearsay.

And of course if that happens that is not good. Abdu’l-Baha said that if people argue about religion it is better not to have religion at all.

Are you sure you are not using argue with a context not mentioned? Given that you and other religious member here often argue about religion should you not just get rid of your religion due to said arguments. Keep in mind argue is not merely yelling and scream kind.

That is one reason why God sends a new Messenger in every age, because people invariably mess up what the previous Messenger revealed. It won’t be as bad this time because we have the Covenant of Baha’u’llah which protects the Writings from getting altered and misinterpreted. However, there will be another Messenger in the future, although He/She will be under the shadow of Baha’u’llah for the next 500,000 years.

This raises the questioning and evaluation of methods used.

Realistically, what other way could God communicate, if not through Messengers, who are both human and divine, making it possible to be mediators between God and man?

Communication need to be verbal nor through a middle-man. Deists for example do not believe in revelation based communications but see it via nature itself.

I would add you are referencing your own religion again as per Messengers and them being divine.

By opponent do you mean an adherent to another religion, or do you mean an atheist?

No just people that do not agree with your views.

If someone can think of alternative to Messengers please present it.

Supernatural creation of texts (writing) in multiple places across the global at once. For example if Bibles suddenly appeared in every household across the world. No messenger involvement required.

Direct communication to everyone is not a viable alternative for so many reasons, but I do not have time to explain those right now.

Direct communication is completely viable give the power of God.
 
Citation needed: Claim made without a speck of evidence.

Heres percentages of the population that has had ghost encounters and mystic experiences, among other beliefs.

Many Americans Mix Multiple Faiths

Heres percentages on Near Death experiences

How Common Are Near-Death Experiences? NDEs by the Numbers

Here are percentages of people who experience ESP and percentages of those who believe it. Those are seperate things. The most important part in these links are the percentages of experiencers.

Poll: Most Believe In Psychic Phenomena

So, you see, what we CURRENTLY have is not zero or 100%. Its roughly give or take 10% 30% and 50% on different things. So, yea, God has moderated the hose. Thats currently how it is. You just want it to be like 70% or something, yes?

Citation needed. Claim made without even weak biblical proof.

I did not even need biblical proof, the point i made is based on pure logic.

If God let lose 100% his revelation, everything would obliterate due to the fact that all work, life, intellectualism, value systems would cease to be. This point is pure logic. And it should be to you too, even if you did not believe in God. Just think for a moment if you knew literally everything?

Really? And god was okay with Noah having drunken orgies with his daughters?

Your mistaken there. Noah got drunk, but he did not have orgies with his daughters. You must be thinking of lot, abrahams nephew. And if you re look at that story, lots daughters got him really drunk then practically raped him to get pregnent.

However, just because they did that, dont mean God approved of it. It just means the biblical authors keep s h i t real, lol

What a weird and arbitrary deity you have there... murders the entire planet, except for a Special Few, but doesn't kill them when they do the same thing he murdered the planet for...!

Oh no, nope, i wont give you that one. Not even close. If you look at the passage carefully here > Genesis 6 NIV

I want to bring a few things to your attention. God destroyed the people in a flood due to >

"5The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Also

"11Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.

Also

"2the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3Then the Lordsaid, “My Spirit will not contend with ahumans forever, for they are mortal b ; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

So God did not destroy them for getting drunk, but for violence, corruption and constant evil and because of these human/angel hybrids.

Nope. It was a Cosmic Joke: An Immortal Being cannot feel mortal suffering and mortal death. That's kinda how 'immortal' works.

Nope, thats not how it works. If a immortal spirit incarnates into a body of flesh, that body can feel pain.


I admit no such thing: The bible's god is the most evil, selfish, capricious, murderous invention by humans ever to come down the turnpike. The absolute opposite of "humble".

But you admit that at a minimum God in the bible did express mercy AT TIMES?

That would be a 100% false claim by you, here-- it was **god** who murdered all the firstborns, or his agent (same thing).

Pharough killed isreals male babies FIRST.

God warned egypt to let isreal go or else he would kill there firstborn. Thats how it played out.

Citation needed: you don't even have a bible verse to back this silly claim.

15 Bible Verses about Karma - Wise Scripture Quotes

So? Murder is still murder.

God did not want the angelic race mingling with the human race creating hybrids. Its justice, not murder. You keep forgetting too that this is Gods universe, the whole thing is his. Even YOU are part of that universe, which makes you HIS.

But sacrificing the whole planet was just Peachy? Talk about HYPOCRITE.

Canaan sacrificing babies to moloch is not the same as God destroying corruption.


The above nonsense is not in the bible.

Cars, airplains, toilets, sizers, squerells are not in the bible either, it dont make it any less real.

Noahs sons had recieved there lands by lot castings. Isreals lot had recieved canaan land. But canaan took it due to liking it more.

So you think the bible is WRONG? Okay.

No, i think the interpretation of eternal torture is wrong. I dont believe the bible teaches it.


Proverbs 1:7 - STR - with Study Resources - Study Desk

Old Testament Hebrew - StudyLight.org

Also.... luke 1:30 as example out of many "But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God."

Evil. That describes your monster-godling. Darn good thing your god simply doesn't exist, now isn't it?

How is it evil that God owns you, bob? It seams like you treat this word own or slave as its a dirty word or something. Think of it like this: if you built or made a cabinet or droors, would you not say that they are yours, they belong to you? You own them? Of course. Owning it dont mean mistreating it.

If God made the universe, which your a part, then he owns you.

What an EVIL picture you paint of your TORTURING god.

You think so? :)

Citation needed. The bible does not agree with you here, either.

If God created the universe, then logically it was not nothing that created it.

But here > Old Testament Hebrew - StudyLight.org

Genesis 1:1 - STR - with Study Resources - with Context - Study Desk

God created, shaped and formed.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Little problem here.
Ok, no superheroes. Although now you're interpreting the bible in a way that supports what you want to say. So Moses didn't part a sea or Jesus did not do all the miracles.
That's first off a huge problem. Any metaphors at all then you open the door for all metaphors, we know there were agnostcs claiming the resurrection story was a metaphor. These gnostics were a large part of Christianity.

The second problem is what's left behind for study does not look like a spiritual text, it looks like an almost exact copy of pagan cults and it's written in a style no author wrote history in. It's written using devices that expert writers of the time would use when writing mythology. Parables, ring structure, Markan sandwiches, stories withing stories, events that happen, say 20 events, then a major event happens and the next 20 events are reverse of the last 20.

Highly mythical. All of the elements were in the OT, found in Jewish angelology and of course pagan savior gods.
Not to mention the OT began to pick up speed after it copied everything revelant from Persia. Right after the Persian invasion?
We also have an ancient Egyptain leader who was basically Moses (Moses is an Egyptain name also) and beieved in one ultimate god and so forth.

So god sent messengers and in the end, upon study, we have obvious myths that make no sense to treat as real events in any way, not historical, not probable, or proveable except as copy-cat deity styles?
No outside reliable sources? God couldn't work that out? Just turn out the sun for one day and have it show up in all world cultures histories?
Maybe a few real prophecies? 1905 asteroid strike. Earth is round, light goes around 7 x a second.
Eath is going around the sun with other planets. All stars are very far away, would take light 4 years to reach the closest one.

Everything written = human knowledge already known. The hippy Jesus, Vedic knowledge was around. Thomas gospel confirms this as do historical stories of Buddhist showing up in Rome.

No, that's the best a god could do yet Hindu/Vedic scripture reads very insightful, not like mythology (except when that is the point - to learn a myth lesson) conveys spirituality without all the Jewish "everyone is a sinner" and a god who can't get anything done without blood magic?
What god would be surprised that this wasn't impressing modern people. The same god obsessed with blod magic sacrifice. An archaic idea that should not be part of any history of any god, except in myth.
"The devil changed history to look like Jesus was a pagan copy" worked for the first 20 centuries but it's not working anymore.

Wasn't even working for many of the USA founders. So this line of thinking makes no sense.
Unless this is a trickster god like Loki who were also in American Indian myths.
Thanks for that bit of information about the Bible. I do not know much about the history of the Bible, how it came to be written. I was never a Christian and I was never interested in religion until quite recently.

God reveals Himself differently in every age of history, depending upon the people He is addressing and the *needs* of the times. That is why scriptures read differently in every age. God also reveals a new message in every age, and new social teachings and laws, again according to the *needs* of the times. This is called Progressive Revelation and it is really quite logical and simple theology.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not even to himself?
Only to Himself.
Nonsense. Divine command theory is a load of rubbish. If God were to exist, he would be just another player in the game. He might have the power to issue commands and to punish people who disobey, but this does not automatically make those commands good or disobeying them evil.
And you know that how?
Same for God.
Not the same because what God thinks has standing for everyone.
No, I think it's good to act out of fairness. A god who doled out rewards and punishments based on an unfair test would not be a fair god.
It is perfectly fair to provide the same evidence for everyone to look at.
How do you know that God is good?
The Messengers say so. How else could we ever know anything about God?
That wasn't what I was asking this time, and frankly, unless you're going to bring something new to the table, I'm not interested in hearing you repeat the same set of claims again. Your arguments were flawed the first time and they haven't improved with age.
I am not interested in repeating them either.
So you don't think that fairness and ethics are necessary parts of being good?
God sets the moral standards, He is not subject to them. By definition, ethics govern humans, not God.

Ethics: moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity.https://www.google.com/search

God is very fair because God is just.
"Setting a standard" does not define what is good. If God told us to meet an evil standard, the fact that God commanded it wouldn't make those evil commands good.
God defines what is good. God does not tell us to meet evil standards, only good ones.
Finally: you do agree that God is fair.
Do you think that a god who is fair would do unfair things?
Well obviously not. But who do you think determines what is fair, you or God?

In case you have not figured it out, the whole crux of these discussions is that atheists seem to think they know more than God about what is good, bad, evil, fair, unfair, moral, etc. That is patently illogical since nobody can know more than a God who is All-Knowing and nobody can be wiser in application of that knowledge than a God who is All-Wise.
It matters because it implies that God set them up to fail. All the parameters of the game were set by God, so God skewed things to create the outcome.
God did not set anyone up to fail. God gave everyone a brain and free will so everyone is on a level playing field. Everyone has just as much of a chance of succeeding as anyone else.

God does not determine the outcome, humans do. God just provides the *same* evidence for everyone to look at. If some people do not *like* that evidence then they should be asking themselves why, instead of expecting some other kind of evidence.
But they aren't treated the same way because of the starting conditions, which were set by God.

Imagine a race where people start at different distances from the finish line, some racers carry heavy weights, some are tied to each other, and some are out of earshot of the starting signal. Would you say that the race is fair just because everyone is supposed to cross the same finish line?
God does not expect the same from everyone because everyone is at a different starting point, and some people carry heavy weights. God is just and merciful. People are judged according to their capacity. To those whom much is given, much is expected.

But there is something else going on here as well. If you have the capacity and do not *use* that capacity owing to stubbornness or arrogance, the All-Knowing God knows that, and you will be judged accordingly. God is just, which means all people are accountable, according to their capacities.
Actually, messengers are inherently unfair. Using messengers means that the opportunity to hear the message will vary.

I'd bet good money that the vast majority of the world hasn't even heard of Baha'u'llah. Even if they're credulous enough to accept the Baha'i message on his say-so, they still haven't even been afforded that opportunity.
The message is out there on the internet for everyone to read, but if nobody has told them about it they cannot be expected to find it, so they will not be held accountable for knowing. Accountability starts with knowing who Baha’u’llah claimed to be, and that the Baha’i Faith exists.

"Then as to what thou hast asked me for pious people who died before they heard the Voice of this Manifestation. Listen: Those who have mounted to God before hearing the Voice, if they followed the rules of conduct as laid down by Jesus and always walked in the straight path,they have obtained this Dazzling Light after their rising to the Kingdom of God. I pray God to lift the veil for thee and to corroborate by the spirit of experience, so that all may be evident to thee, by the Holy Spirit of God." ('Abdu'l-Bahá, Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, p. 478)

"Those who have never had any opportunity of hearing of the Faith but who lived good lives will no doubt be treated with the greatest love and mercy in the next world and reap their full reward."
(Directives from the Guardian, no. 108, p. 40)

Think of it this way. If someone was not told the rules and policies of the workplace, they are not accountable for following them. That is why employers make sure all their employees know the rules and policies.

As an aside, there is an atheist I used to post to on other forums and he said I did not do him any favors by telling him about Baha’u’llah. But it is my job to at least make Him known, so people have a choice to investigate if they want to.
God cannot help it? You think that human nature is so powerful that even an omnipotent god can't overcome it?
God could override human free will and that is the only way God could help it.

But God is not going to override human free will because He does not want to. Do you think God should do that, just so everyone will believe? Do you want to be forced to do something against your free will?
God set all the starting conditions and set all the parameters of the test that he expected his own creation to pass.
That is true.
I heard a quote in the context of policy and risk management, but I think it applies here as well: "if you're going to write your own test, you'd better get 100%." An omnipotent god, testing his own creation and the things that flowed from it according to his own standards, has no excuse whatsoever for failing to achieve an outcome that's the slightest bit less than what he wanted.
God is not the one who achieves the outcome. God has nothing to do with the outcome. Humans achieve the outcome by *choosing* to believe. So it is humans who failed to pass God’s test when they chose not to believe.

There is no reason to think that God *wants* 100% of people to believe in Baha’u’llah and even if He does want that there is no reason to believe He wants it right away. But assuming God wants 100% right away, the only way that God could get 100% would be to override human free will and make people believe. God chooses not to do that, so the ball is in the human court. They can catch it or drop it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yet one more thing you "know" about god, which flies in the face of your claim that you don't know anything about god.... !
If God is All-Powerful by nature God cannot just dial that back. That would be like saying that you can dial back your human nature and become less than human. This is logic 101 stuff. God being omnipotent has nothing to do with it.
"unlimited". Except for several EPIC FAIL traits: It cannot dial itself back, in order to speak to everyone.
God does not want to speak to everyone;that is what you want God to do. God only does what God wants to do, not what you want God to do. What about this do you not understand?
It cannot muster up enough "god magic" to become convincing to the majority on earth-- let alone everyone.
God does not want to convince anyone, God wants everyone to convince themselves. What about this do you not understand?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Spoiler alert: I skipped over what is repetitive in your post. Saying the same things over and over again is not going to magically make them come true.
Trailblazer said: I do not have time to explain why He doesn’t prove Himself right now, I have to go to work and it is a long haul. Ask me later if you want to know.

Bob said: He doesn't because:

1) He is a giant azz, a jerk, a Cosmic Bully-- malicious, and enjoys people's pain
2) He's not really a god at all, and absolutely lacks the power to prove himself
3) He is suffering from an Infinite Case of Not Existing.

Which is it?
NONE of the above. The correct answer is:

4) He does not want to prove Himself to us. Rather, He wants us to prove to ourselves that He exists.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT: Your god is pure EVIL. And it's not ME saying this.
It is YOU saying this Bob and you say it just because you are not getting what you want; you are a grown man acting like a small child.

The fact that you are an atheist won’t get you off the hook for talking about God the way you do, which amounts to hating God. God does exist, and what you say and do is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. That is the ONE unforgivable sin.

The Holy Spirit is the light of God. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is detestation of the light of God, the divine perfections. In a sense then it is detestation of God since one hates the divine perfections (God’s qualities).

Jesus and the other Messengers of God were like lamps that brought the Holy Spirit; they brought the light of God to humanity because they reflected God’s attributes. It is forgivable to hate the lamp, because one might not recognize that the lamp is from God because they might not see the divine perfections of God in the lamp.

Matthew 12:31-32 “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven.Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”

In those verses Jesus said it is unforgivable to hate the Holy Spirit (light of God) and one will not be forgiven in this life or in the afterlife. This is pretty serious business.

I can only surmise why that is unforgivable. It is a Baha’i belief that heaven and hell are states of the soul, not geographical locations. Heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God. It is impossible to come near to God if one is repelled by the light of God because God does not force His love upon anyone. God only draws those near to Him those who reach out for His mercy. If one hates God they will not reach out for God’s mercy and they will thus be distant from God; in such a state they will make their own hell. Maybe that correlates with the unforgivable sin.
Trailblazer said: Nice attempt at a dodge. Why should God be responsible to prevent what humans are fully capable of preventing?.

Bob: I never asked about that: PROJECTION/STRAWMAN.
So I see, you cannot answer my question.

Here it is again:
Why should God be responsible to prevent what humans are fully capable of preventing?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not "kowtowing to humans;" designing and creating humans the way he wants them to be.

You've proposed a god whose own works - humanity - don't meet the standard that God proposed for himself. This is entirely about God failing his own test, not about humanity demanding things from God.
No, not at all. Humans do have the *potential* to meet God’s standards since humans were created with that potential. God gave us the raw materials, a brain to think and analyze and free will to make choices. Humans cannot justly demand any more than the raw materials. If humans do not use the raw materials and thus fail to live up to their potential that is not God’s fault. God gave us the raw materials but we have to exert some effort in order to realize our potential.

It is kind of like this: If a parent has a child with a lot of potential, and a parent sends his child to college, pays his tuition, books and living expenses, the child has to exert an effort to be successful and get their college degree. The child cannot blame dad if they flunk out.
If God really does want humanity to know him and really was the creator of everything, then every human being who doesn't know him represents a failure on the part of God.
No, you have that backwards. God gave us everything we needed in order to succeed, so every human being who doesn't know God represents a failure on the part of that human. It is no different from the child who had everything going for him but still failed in college. Of course we have to look at the *reasons* why he failed and there might have been extenuating circumstances; or he might have been partying hardy instead of studying.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This does not even begin to make sense. Having information with which to make wise choices is the only thing that permits real free will. Without that, you're just guessing in the dark.

But the damage is done...by not imparting information that can be reasonably and rationally determined to be true, we have a world in which religions have been fighting and killing each other since religion started. So it would appear that you think that's what God wants.
The information is available.
That information can be reasonably and rationally determined to be true.

If you do not *like* the information that God provided, you cannot blame God for that.
 

Vaderecta

Active Member
This is a carryover from a dialogue that has been ongoing between me and an Atheist on another forum for about five years... Yes, five years and we are still going around in the same circles. I posted something about this about six months ago but I am back with a slightly different slant.

Synopsis: The issue at hand is that this Atheist thinks that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world (all 7.4 billion people) because that is “what he considers” the only credible method of communication. In his opinion, if God does not communicate directly to everyone, that is evidence that God does not exist. One of his premises is that a God would want everyone to believe in Him, and direct communication to everyone would be “the only way” to accomplish that.

My position is that God wants everyone to believe in Him but God does not need everyone to believe in Him because an omnipotent/omniscient/fully self-sufficient God does not need anything from anyone. If an omnipotent God needed everyone to believe in Him, He could have communicated directly to everyone. So, since God does not do that, there are only three logical possibilities to choose from:
  1. God uses Messengers, knowing that not everyone will believe in them.
  2. God does not communicate at all.
  3. God does not exist.
There is no option #4, that if God exists, God would communicate directly with everyone, because God has not communicated directly with everyone.

In other words, since there is no evidence that God has ever communicated directly to everyone we can assume that is not what God wants to do, if God exists.

Credibility is not the issue here, this issue is the best way to communicate to accomplish what God is trying to accomplish.

Who would know the best way to communicate to humans in order to accomplish what God wants to accomplish, humans or God?

God is a him and has goals you as a human understand. Cool. We all believe in things.

To address your question the existence of god if god was real wouldn't be any different from you came from your mom or the sun heats the earth. It would be a thing. Its currently a thing in 15 million different forms and has believers as devout as harry potter fans. God would know how to make their presence known... it wouldn't be a question or a debate item. No one is debating who birthed you. You came from another human who particpated in a certain act that led to you being here right now. This is not a debate. Right I have no idea who my dad is but I know my mom. We all had a mom.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, that implies that you believe what Baha’u’llah said. I don’t. For the same reasons I mentioned above. For sure, this atheist here does not rate this as reliable communication from God.
No, you do not have to believe what Baha’u’llah said in order to hear the logical explanation and consider whether it seems logical to you. It might not seem logical to you, but you cannot know that unless you heard it.
Well, of course I know nothing about God. Which one, by the way? They must be thousands.
There might be thousands of *conceptions* of God, but there is only one God. Why would it be necessary to have more than one?
Well, first of all I would like to see how you differentiate between the true messengers and the false ones, without begging the question.
Generally speaking, you distinguish them by their fruits, as Jesus said. We do not *assume* anything until we have looked at the fruits.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
Their motive? We know that people can kill themselves and all their families because they strongly believe that some starship hiding behind a comet will pick their dead souls up.

So, we know people delude themselves. It happens all the time. You must believe all those prophets from the competion deluded themselves. Deluding oneselves is vastly more plausible than gods talking only to selected people.
If you look at the character, and the life and mission, and the Writings of Baha’u’llah it becomes abundantly clear that He did not delude himself.

Many false prophets did delude themselves, but that does not mean that all Prophets deluded themselves. It is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization to assume that just because many or most prophets were false all Prophets were false.

Why wouldn’t God talk only to selected people? Why would God talk to everyone when God could talk to selected people who can make the message available to everyone?
You make the assumption that good fruits are really good and it is not the other way round. For what you know, God could be an evil being that likes you to believe that, while secretly trying to split people.
Why would God do that? If God was evil, there would be no point believing in Him. Of course, the only way you can know anything about God is from the Messengers. That is how we know God is good.
See? In order to believe prophet X, you must have some a priori assumptions that makes him believable. And that, is logically untenable, if god did not whisper to you too.
No, not at all. You can look at the evidence for Prophet X with an open mind, with no preconceptions. A wise man looks at Prophet X for himself rather than assuming He has to be a false prophet.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103
 

Vaderecta

Active Member
No, you do not have to believe what Baha’u’llah said in order to hear the logical explanation and consider whether it seems logical to you. It might not seem logical to you, but you cannot know that unless you heard it.

There might be thousands of *conceptions* of God, but there is only one God. Why would it be necessary to have more than one?

Generally speaking, you distinguish them by their fruits, as Jesus said. We do not *assume* anything until we have looked at the fruits.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

If you look at the character, and the life and mission, and the Writings of Baha’u’llah it becomes abundantly clear that He did not delude himself.

Many false prophets did delude themselves, but that does not mean that all Prophets deluded themselves. It is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization to assume that just because many or most prophets were false all Prophets were false.

Why wouldn’t God talk only to selected people? Why would God talk to everyone when God could talk to selected people who can make the message available to everyone?

Why would God do that? If God was evil, there would be no point believing in Him. Of course, the only way you can know anything about God is from the Messengers. That is how we know God is good.

No, not at all. You can look at the evidence for Prophet X with an open mind, with no preconceptions. A wise man looks at Prophet X for himself rather than assuming He has to be a false prophet.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

I usually put from Santa on many gifts my kids get but this year a few are from the elves. (Long story) But I think you can get where this post is coming from. BTW Elves do not get enough love. Elf on shelf? Kids love elves! Give some presents from the elves.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yet you often talked about this very subject as if you do.
Good point and thanks for bringing that to my attention. I do draw conclusions based upon what Baha’u’llah wrote about what God wants for us, but that does not mean I know what God is thinking or what God expects.
Same as per the order genocides.
Do you really believe God did that? I will leave that to the Jews and Christians to sort out. The bible is not my book.
Assumption made to defend hearsay.
I was not defending anything. I just said that *I* personally would not want to hear from God directly.

Moreover, there is nothing to defend. If God uses Messengers, He does, and God does not need a defense attorney to defend Himself for doing what He does.
Are you sure you are not using argue with a context not mentioned? Given that you and other religious member here often argue about religion should you not just get rid of your religion due to said arguments. Keep in mind argue is not merely yelling and scream kind.
My definition of arguing is when people disagree and become contentious, insisting they are right and the other person is wrong. Merely talking about a religion and disagreeing with others is not arguing, it is disagreeing.
This raises the questioning and evaluation of methods used.
Why would that be the case?
Communication need to be verbal nor through a middle-man. Deists for example do not believe in revelation based communications but see it via nature itself.
That is a kind of communication that might reveal the nature of God, but it has no message attached that lets us know what God wants of us.
Supernatural creation of texts (writing) in multiple places across the global at once. For example if Bibles suddenly appeared in every household across the world. No messenger involvement required.
Texts are texts. Why is that better than the Messenger method?

There is one reason I can think of that God would never do that. God wants us to have some faith, so God does not use the supernatural method because that would be too easy.

But let’s just say those Bibles appeared in every household. Do you think everyone would draw the same conclusions as to how they got there? Do you think that everyone would believe that they came from God? How could they prove that?
Direct communication is completely viable give the power of God.
It might be viable for God but it is not variable for humans. I just explained this to my atheist friend on my forum:

He said: People are led to believe and EXPECTED to believe that God CHOOSES to not communicate with people......not that the God CANNOT communicate with people, but rather CHOOSES not to, for reasons so vague as to totally escape my ability to understand.

I said: The reasons are not vague at all, they are highly logical.

1) Ordinary humans do not have the capacity to receive communication from an ALMIGHTY GOD. There is too great of a chasm in between humans and God, so God sends Messengers why are kind of hybrids; like God-men.

2) Related to #1 above, only Messengers have a divine mind and that enables them to receive communication for God.
 

Vaderecta

Active Member
1) Ordinary humans do not have the capacity to receive communication from an ALMIGHTY GOD. There is too great of a chasm in between humans and God, so God sends Messengers why are kind of hybrids; like God-men.

? This is an insult. Masked or not. Jesus. He or she said this. Think of the Marvel or DC universe this idea conjures. So far out there. So different from the interest rate on your Robinhood checking account or what stage your cancer is at. You are an ordinary human and just don't have the capacity. There are special humans that can hear the word of the all caps god and etc etc. And it came to be that this post was nonsensical ramblings of the messengers of tomorrow and of the past for the present is beckoning.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Heres percentages of the population that has had ghost encounters and mystic experiences, among other beliefs.

Many Americans Mix Multiple Faiths

Heres percentages on Near Death experiences

How Common Are Near-Death Experiences? NDEs by the Numbers

Here are percentages of people who experience ESP and percentages of those who believe it. Those are seperate things. The most important part in these links are the percentages of experiencers.

Poll: Most Believe In Psychic Phenomena.
.

Argument from popularity Logical Fallacy. Not actually evidence. Anecdotal at best.
So, you see, what we CURRENTLY have is not zero or 100%. Its roughly give or take 10% 30% and 50% on different things. So, yea, God has moderated the hose. Thats currently how it is. You just want it to be like 70% or something, yes?.

So you say-- still no evidence to back your statements, here. Just you, saying "Is so".

That's not evidence.


I did not even need biblical proof, the point i made is based on pure logic..

Absolutely false "logic". You need to re-examine the definition of what is and what isn't "logical".

You do not appear to have a firm grasp of it's actual use.
If God let lose 100% his revelation, everything would obliterate due to the fact that all work, life, intellectualism, value systems would cease to be..

What? That makes zero sense. Besides, you are ***AGAIN*** making a false dichotomy: 0% or 100%.

What we have now? Is a big fat ZERO: Nothing. Nada. Not one thing from your god.

Nobody is asking for the entire load. But you seem to think that your inept god is only capable of 100%... ?

Not much of a god.
This point is pure logic. And it should be to you too, even if you did not believe in God. Just think for a moment if you knew literally everything?
.

LMAO! No. Again, you make several false claims, and logical fallacies.
Your mistaken there. Noah got drunk, but he did not have orgies with his daughters. You must be thinking of lot, abrahams nephew. And if you re look at that story, lots daughters got him really drunk then practically raped him to get pregnent..

I read the bible. It's clear: Noah had drunken orgies with his **daughters**. Sick-- even by biblical standards.
However, just because they did that, dont mean God approved of it. It just means the biblical authors keep s h i t real, lol.

Is the bible from your god or NOT? Obviously... NOT! Ooops!
Oh no, nope, i wont give you that one. Not even close. If you look at the passage carefully here > Genesis 6 NIV
.

Nope.

I want to bring a few things to your attention. God destroyed the people in a flood due to >

"5The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Also

"11Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.

Also

"2the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3Then the Lordsaid, “My Spirit will not contend with ahumans forever, for they are mortal b ; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

So God did not destroy them for getting drunk, but for violence, corruption and constant evil and because of these human/angel hybrids.
.

BLAH-BLAH-BLAH: you cannot get past the FACT that your god MURDERED THE WHOLE WORLD, because they ACTED EXACTLY AS THEY WERE CREATED TO ACT.

So your god gets MAD at them for being EXACTLY how he MADE them to be!

What a moron your god is!

Nope, thats not how it works. If a immortal spirit incarnates into a body of flesh, that body can feel pain.
.

LMAO! Nope-- either your god is immortal or he isn't. If he is? No bother, no real pain-- not how a MORTAL being would feel it. It's a joke.

But you admit that at a minimum God in the bible did express mercy AT TIMES?
.

Never. Bible's god is the most UNMERCIFUL being ever conceived by men.
Pharough killed isreals male babies FIRST..

Citation needed: you are bearing False Witness!
God warned egypt to let isreal go or else he would kill there firstborn. Thats how it played out.
.

But-- Pharoah HAD NO FREE WILL IN THE MATTER: GOD HARDENED HIS HEART.

Your god? A murderer.


Only if you twist the meaning---- I did a bible search: NO "KARMA" EVER IN THE ENTIRE THING.

Once again? You're being disingenuous.

God did not want the angelic race mingling with the human race creating hybrids. Its justice, not murder. You keep forgetting too that this is Gods universe, the whole thing is his. Even YOU are part of that universe, which makes you HIS..

Citation needed. No such thing as you say in the *actual* bible.

Canaan sacrificing babies to moloch is not the same as God destroying corruption.
.

Really? I see it no different: Babies being murdered by a god or god's followers.

Same sh--, different days.

Cars, airplains, toilets, sizers, squerells are not in the bible either, it dont make it any less real..

Well, if the bible had been UPDATED to fit the MODERN ERA? Maybe they would have been.

Or? The bible is just an old, useless, immoral Bronze Age Book of horse exhaust.
Noahs sons had recieved there lands by lot castings. Isreals lot had recieved canaan land. But canaan took it due to liking it more..

The Cananites were there **first**-- but bible-god has them KILLED because they were IN THE WAY--- EXACTLY like the North American Natives were, and god-fearing, bible-quoting men murdered THEM TOO, for the exact same reasons.

No, i think the interpretation of eternal torture is wrong. I dont believe the bible teaches it.
.

And you'd be wrong about THAT, TOO.

Nonsensical listings. I can read what it say. You can claim it does NOT mean what is written, but I can read it for myself.

It's a plain as day: The bible-god will torture FOREVER anyone who does not act like a mindless slave.
How is it evil that God owns you, bob? It seams like you treat this word own or slave as its a dirty word or something. Think of it like this: if you built or made a cabinet or droors, would you not say that they are yours, they belong to you? You own them? Of course. Owning it dont mean mistreating it..

MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT. Ownership of PEOPLE is EVIL.

Which is why the bible is MORALLY BANKRUPT. What else, from a Bronze Age Book Of idiocy?
If God made the universe, which your a part, then he owns you.
.

MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT. Do you own your CHILDREN?

If God created the universe, then logically it was not nothing that created it..

Citation needed: NOT the bible, that is your CLAIM.

Pass.

Pass. The bible is your CLAIM. Where is your EVIDENCE?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
If God is All-Powerful by nature God cannot just dial that back. That would be like saying that you can dial back your human nature and become less than human. This is logic 101 stuff. God being omnipotent has nothing to do with it..

So your god is NOT -- repeat NOT all powerful? Because it has NO POWER to cut back on how it manifests to people?

Not much of a god, then! Rather inept. A pre-school teacher is BETTER at being a parent than your god is! Seriously.

Your portrait of a god is one of a MONSTER who is so VAIN so EGOTISTICAL it cannot moderate it's presence enough to be an effective communicator.

PEOPLE are better at communication than your god is! Seriously.

God does not want to speak to everyone;that is what you want God to do. God only does what God wants to do, not what you want God to do. What about this do you not understand?.

With GREAT POWER comes GREAT RESPONSIBILITY. Otherwise? IMMORAL.

Your god? IMMORAL.
God does not want to convince anyone, God wants everyone to convince themselves. What about this do you not understand?

I get it: IMMORAL. That's what your god is.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Spoiler alert: I skipped over what is repetitive in your post. Saying the same things over and over again is not going to magically make them come true..

Indeed: Your god is IMMORAL. A MONSTER.
NONE of the above. The correct answer is:

4) He does not want to prove Himself to us. Rather, He wants us to prove to ourselves that He exists.

FALSE. Saying the same things over and over again is not going to magically make them come true..
 
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