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Canonization of the Saints

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Shrugs. I don't know. @Deeje was mentioning that once the apostles died there was no more need of miracles. What's odd about that is then and now are the same reality. So, only two thousand years ago people were walking on water and now in the 21st century, they forgot the act.

That is missing the point of why the miracles were performed in the first place. God was confirming that his favour had now shifted from the old apostate Jewish system to the new Christian arrangement. Miracles gave people a taste of the blessing of the kingdom to come. It was a foretaste, not intended to be part of a world ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19) When the devil is put away, then the blessings will flow.

It's interesting the history of the saints. My confirmation saint was Gurtrude and she was the patron of purgatory. I wanted to pick Saint Francis but it was too late. Though purgatory is another discussion, obviously.

Understanding what "saints" are from a Catholic perspective is vastly different from what the Bible says they are. Same with "miracles". No miracle performed by the apostles was useless. To imagine that a weeping idol was a miracle is ridiculous! People lining up to genuflect before a fence post because someone saw something that looked like an image of Jesus or Mary on it....? Seriously? That is idolatry pure and simple.

When the church is virtually lobbying God to make someone a "saint" only in their version of events (which is totally outside of what the Bible says) then they are seriously misleading a lot of people.
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I find the Hebrew uses the word "exhaust......" instead of wear down.
Those political kings/beast-like governments recognize Jesus' ' brothers ' (Matthew 25:40) who are 'alive' on Earth at the coming ' glory time ' of Jesus involving himself into mankind's affairs - Matthew 25:31-33.
Involving himself before those holy ones are worn out or completely exhausted.
Holy ones, like the apostles, who have already died can't be affected by anyone on Earth.
So, Daniel is talking about living saints or holy ones who are alive on Earth. (our day or time frame)
Only God did and does the choosing of who are the saints or holy ones - Romans 8:14-30.
That means No man or groups of men can decide, for it is only by God's calling.

I think the false prophet Paul has you calling up down and down up. One must seek "His kingdom", and "His righteousness" (Matthew 6:33). And it is for the son to know the Father, and "anyone to whom the son wills to reveal him.(Matthew 11:27). The "saints" are the "holy people" of Daniel 12:7, who have been "worn down" for time, times, and half a time, and the "finish" of that "shattering of the power of the holy people", as shown in the 67 Israel war, is coming to an end (Daniel 12:7. And it is Rome and her church who have been doing the "shattering" for time, times, and half a time (Daniel 7:25). The end will come when the nations/Gentiles are gathered against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-3). The tares, the followers of Paul, will be dealt with before the wheat is gathered (Matthew 13:30) & (Ezekiel 37:15-25). One third of mankind will die of fire, spoke, and brimstone (Revelation 9:18) The "little ones" of Zechariah 13:9, will go through fire to be refined (Zechariah 13:9). It was Rome and her church who burnt the righteous/saints, it will be the angels of heaven who will return the favor (Matthew 13:39-41). The surviving nations/Gentiles will confess, we inherited "falsehood" from our "fathers". (Jeremiah 16:19).
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I am a stickler for detail metis.....don't ask me questions if you don't want a detailed answer.
If I needed more details, I'd be asking for them.

With the exception of the Sermon On the Mount, the lessons which you partially ignore (charitable giving and love-- agape-- over political correctness), Jesus talked with generally brief words, and the apostles asked questions if they needed to, which often they did. You just ramble and ramble and ramble in a word-salad as if you're trying to impress people here, thus also diverting to all sorts of things not under current discussion. Lying, stereotyping others, and twisting things so as to suit your fancy is impressive, but in a negative way.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
That is missing the point of why the miracles were performed in the first place. God was confirming that his favour had now shifted from the old apostate Jewish system to the new Christian arrangement. Miracles gave people a taste of the blessing of the kingdom to come. It was a foretaste, not intended to be part of a world ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19) When the devil is put away, then the blessings will flow.



Understanding what "saints" are from a Catholic perspective is vastly different from what the Bible says they are. Same with "miracles". No miracle performed by the apostles was useless. To imagine that a weeping idol was a miracle is ridiculous! People lining up to genuflect before a fence post because someone saw something that looked like an image of Jesus or Mary on it....? Seriously? That is idolatry pure and simple.

When the church is virtually lobbying God to make someone a "saint" only in their version of events (which is totally outside of what the Bible says) then they are seriously misleading a lot of people.

Belittling The Church aside, when did the last apostle died?

Im still baffled about the recent time period all of these things happened. If it were further back than the Pagans, even though time period doesnt equal authenticity, Id still understand why some concepts from then are present today. Though, like Romans, Id assume it would die out but Roman history is so close to half of the world's history, that any gods such as Abrahamic and later Grreek and Roman gods seem so recent.

Insofar, we still have records for their history and transition, that to think that the abrahamic god and apostles can perform miracles seems the same as saying Roman gods can through those they put at high athority.

The time gap is so short that its almost thinking in hundred year gaps. Its not that far ago. Miracles as myths is not a bad thing. It makes more sense in line with history and the importance of myths until later in history.

There was a free collage course on Roman and Greek history. Another one on christian history. I was thinking of taking it.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I was watching the movie Stigmata. The movie is about a teenage atheist who received the marks of the Stigmata. A Catholic priest is in charge of investigating and disproving the miracles associated with the Stigmata of the girl. The priest and Church had a conflict of opinions.

There is a common thought that miracles in jesus day are not around during these time periods. However, through The Causes of the Saints, determines what is a miracle these days as compared to days of old. Thousands of christians not specific to a denomination believe in miracles of christ. Ideally, they have no cut-off period. However, some christians think so...how, I dont know. No one answered me yet.

Anyhow, the latest modern mariacles are that of Mother Teressa. She was canonized as a saint in 1997:

The Miracles That Made Mother Teresa a Saint

Discussion/question is what is your opinion of the Causes of the Saints? Without belittling The Church, is there some validity in The Church's decisions in who they beautify as a saint?

When The Church canonized Teressa, they skipped one step which was to wait three months. I cant remember the reason. What is your opinion of the 1997 miracles?

Do they compare to miracles of jesus day in regards to context not specific to parting the red sea and people waking up from the dead.

Discuss.

Sick.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, and you know what that tells me? It tells me that she was a "thinker", not just a follower.

It's good to question, imo. It's good to say "I don't know", imo.

She was not a perfect person, and I'm certainly not a perfect person, but what she did in India was amazing. I personally know a former priest that worked in India to help her out for roughly a year, and he said he was in awe of what she was doing and how many lives she touched-- flaws and all.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Belittling The Church aside, when did the last apostle died?

The last apostle to die was John, who recorded his Revelation and his letters before his death. With his death, what would become the last part of the Christian scriptures were complete. No writings after that can be considered "scripture"....i.e. "Inspired of God" (2 Timothy 3:17-17)

Im still baffled about the recent time period all of these things happened. If it were further back than the Pagans, even though time period doesnt equal authenticity, Id still understand why some concepts from then are present today. Though, like Romans, Id assume it would die out but Roman history is so close to half of the world's history, that any gods such as Abrahamic and later Grreek and Roman gods seem so recent.

Antiquity has no bearing on the age of God obviously. There were no "gods" in existence before Jehovah who, as an eternal being had no beginning. No other "gods" existed until humans created them. The concept of other gods did not surface until after the global flood, with Nimrod setting himself up to oppose Jehovah.

Legends of the pre-flood "Nephilim" (giants) and their supernatural fathers, provided the basis for belief in the existence of other "gods.....seen clearly in the mythology of the Greeks.
Only then did humans begin to be "hunters", having been given permission to consume animal flesh. Perhaps taking the lives of animals gave them a blood lust, as it is believed that Nimrod made a name for himself by hunting humans.
After his death, his mother elevated him to "god" status, thus making herself "the mother of God". Madonna and child goddesses are thus seen in many non-biblical religions, along with trinities of gods, the concepts of which were adopted in later periods by a seriously weak and corrupted church.

Insofar, we still have records for their history and transition, that to think that the abrahamic god and apostles can perform miracles seems the same as saying Roman gods can through those they put at high athority.

We have scripture for a reason. The Bible is not just a book that the church produced....it is God's word, not man's. The church seems to want to take credit for it, but God can use even his enemies to fulfill his purpose as he demonstrated with Babylon. There is a reason why false worship is identified by Jesus in the Revelation as "Babylon the great". (Revelation 18:4) Once you identify "Babylon the great" her role becomes clear.

The time gap is so short that its almost thinking in hundred year gaps. Its not that far ago. Miracles as myths is not a bad thing. It makes more sense in line with history and the importance of myths until later in history.

Why do miracles need to be myth? The church has certainly done nothing to dispel that idea, creating all manner of strange and often ridiculous "miracles" as if weeping statues or other weird events somehow equal the miracles demonstrated in the Bible.

What miracles were performed in the first century that were not beneficial to the person on the receiving end of them? Healing people of illnesses and disabilities, resurrecting some from the dead, being able to speak in languages that were never learned so as to allow foreign visitors to Jerusalem to hear the Christian message in their own language....all were simply a demonstration of what was to come on a grand scale under Christ's rulership in God's Kingdom.

There was a free collage course on Roman and Greek history. Another one on christian history. I was thinking of taking it.

All education is beneficial if you learn the subject from a trusted source using reliable and verifiable information. The problem is, (as the Bible states) that the world is under the control of God's enemy (1 John 5:19) who set himself up as a rival "god".....he makes sure that humans fall for his propaganda, masquerading as education in many areas.

We all have the same freedom to exercise our free will in all things...so the information we use to form our opinions and make our choices, is important. Informed choice is the only one worth making IMO.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Why do miracles need to be myth? The church has certainly done nothing to dispel that idea, creating all manner of strange and often ridiculous "miracles" as if weeping statues or other weird events somehow equal the miracles demonstrated in the Bible.
And you supposedly know that these "miracles" were and are bogus? How in the world could you possibly know that? Do you believe you're omniscient? You certainly act like you think you are.

My point is, as usual, you make assumption after assumption after assumption based on what you're been trained to believe. As for myself, I have no clue as to whether there have been such alleged miracles involved, nor do I particularly worry about not knowing.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
If one believes the world is controlled by "God's enemy", welcome to the world of polytheism as this creates two gods since "God's enemy" has his own domain and God has His, as that's the definition of "polytheism".
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
That's a pretty huge two thousand year gap.
What in the past two or three hundred years or so till today have things been Les extravagant in miracles?
At least that's the conclusion I drew from basic observation and history here where I live. Once you get it, you see it everywhere. Then you laugh and wonder why we still think this way.

The first biblical prophecy about a promised ' seed ' (Messiah ) happened at the time of Genesis 3:15.
So, to me that means Messiah could appear any time on the scene (Earth) since Genesis.
Seems as if the 1st-century people were now expecting Messiah to appear on the scene as per Luke 3:15.
And right, Jesus as Messiah did appear on Earth in the 1st-century.
Jesus knew it would be a long time before his return as per what Jesus said Luke 19:11-15.
Jesus, as that nobleman, would first have to go away to a far country (Heaven) before returning.
This long awaited time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
The first century was only the beginning of genuine ' wheat ' Christians growing together with the fake 'weed/tares' Christians until the Harvest Time. That Harvest Time is in connection to Jesus' glory time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
That soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth will be an 'extravagant miracle' or powerful work.
In the meantime, the international proclaiming about God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44 has reached global miraculous proportions as never before in history just as Jesus said it would be done at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If I needed more details, I'd be asking for them.
With the exception of the Sermon On the Mount, the lessons which you partially ignore (charitable giving and love-- agape-- over political correctness), Jesus talked with generally brief words, and the apostles asked questions if they needed to, which often they did......................

I find Jesus P.C. (political correctness) was his and his followers being neutral in world affairs.
Jesus stressed God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 as to what he gave his allegiance to at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
I find the example of charitable giving is found in Jesus story about the neighborly good Samaritan.
How we should broaden out, widen out in showing practical love for an individual person in his time of distress.
Jesus never said to set up charities a part of worship, but to show a Samaritan-type love on a one-on-one basis.
Also, agape' love would be loving Jesus as he wanted to be loved and remembered as per Luke 22:19.
Agape' love would be keeping Jesus NEW commandment found at John 13:34-35.
NEW in that Jesus' followers would now love neighbor ' more ' than self. More than the Golden Rule.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The first biblical prophecy about a promised ' seed ' (Messiah ) happened at the time of Genesis 3:15.
So, to me that means Messiah could appear any time on the scene (Earth) since Genesis.
Seems as if the 1st-century people were now expecting Messiah to appear on the scene as per Luke 3:15.
And right, Jesus as Messiah did appear on Earth in the 1st-century.
Jesus knew it would be a long time before his return as per what Jesus said Luke 19:11-15.
Jesus, as that nobleman, would first have to go away to a far country (Heaven) before returning.
This long awaited time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
The first century was only the beginning of genuine ' wheat ' Christians growing together with the fake 'weed/tares' Christians until the Harvest Time. That Harvest Time is in connection to Jesus' glory time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
That soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth will be an 'extravagant miracle' or powerful work.
In the meantime, the international proclaiming about God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44 has reached global miraculous proportions as never before in history just as Jesus said it would be done at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8.

You have a lot of verses but no point or relationship to my post. What are you saying without the scripture?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The last apostle to die was John, who recorded his Revelation and his letters before his death. With his death, what would become the last part of the Christian scriptures were complete. No writings after that can be considered "scripture"....i.e. "Inspired of God" (2 Timothy 3:17-17)



Antiquity has no bearing on the age of God obviously. There were no "gods" in existence before Jehovah who, as an eternal being had no beginning. No other "gods" existed until humans created them. The concept of other gods did not surface until after the global flood, with Nimrod setting himself up to oppose Jehovah.

Legends of the pre-flood "Nephilim" (giants) and their supernatural fathers, provided the basis for belief in the existence of other "gods.....seen clearly in the mythology of the Greeks.
Only then did humans begin to be "hunters", having been given permission to consume animal flesh. Perhaps taking the lives of animals gave them a blood lust, as it is believed that Nimrod made a name for himself by hunting humans.
After his death, his mother elevated him to "god" status, thus making herself "the mother of God". Madonna and child goddesses are thus seen in many non-biblical religions, along with trinities of gods, the concepts of which were adopted in later periods by a seriously weak and corrupted church.



We have scripture for a reason. The Bible is not just a book that the church produced....it is God's word, not man's. The church seems to want to take credit for it, but God can use even his enemies to fulfill his purpose as he demonstrated with Babylon. There is a reason why false worship is identified by Jesus in the Revelation as "Babylon the great". (Revelation 18:4) Once you identify "Babylon the great" her role becomes clear.



Why do miracles need to be myth? The church has certainly done nothing to dispel that idea, creating all manner of strange and often ridiculous "miracles" as if weeping statues or other weird events somehow equal the miracles demonstrated in the Bible.

What miracles were performed in the first century that were not beneficial to the person on the receiving end of them? Healing people of illnesses and disabilities, resurrecting some from the dead, being able to speak in languages that were never learned so as to allow foreign visitors to Jerusalem to hear the Christian message in their own language....all were simply a demonstration of what was to come on a grand scale under Christ's rulership in God's Kingdom.



All education is beneficial if you learn the subject from a trusted source using reliable and verifiable information. The problem is, (as the Bible states) that the world is under the control of God's enemy (1 John 5:19) who set himself up as a rival "god".....he makes sure that humans fall for his propaganda, masquerading as education in many areas.

We all have the same freedom to exercise our free will in all things...so the information we use to form our opinions and make our choices, is important. Informed choice is the only one worth making IMO.

This is a lot for a couple simple concerns and observations.

The time gap of miracles between B.C. and today before and after the apostles is very extanishing. I can kinda see if christians believed in miracles and things millions of years ago. You would think age matters; but, its interesting that the closer to today we come, the less miracles we have. I wonder if we transported ourselves back then (which wasnt that long ago) would we have the same thoughts as today. I honestly doubt it. I cant think of another way to explain how the time gaps being so short together but the wildest miracles happen before The Church and not after the church of jesus's last apostle.

I mean, things change every generation! Can you imagine what we are applying to B.C. that we cant even fathom what went on (and dont claim to) five hundred years before our lifetime?

Reilgion not excused of this logic.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
My point is, as usual, you make assumption after assumption after assumption based on what you're been trained to believe. As for myself, I have no clue as to whether there have been such alleged miracles involved, nor do I particularly worry about not knowing.

Since the so called miracles that occur in the time after the apostles died is significant, and misleading for a lot of people, not to mention the criteria for identifying someone as a Catholic "saint"....you should worry about knowing or not knowing.


If one believes the world is controlled by "God's enemy", welcome to the world of polytheism as this creates two gods since "God's enemy" has his own domain and God has His, as that's the definition of "polytheism".

It isn't us who claim that the world is controlled by its own god, metis.....if you knew scripture, you would know that the apostle John revealed this.

"We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one." (RSV Catholic Edition)

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God."
(2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Even Jesus said..." I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me". (John 14:30)

I wish your knowledge of scripture was a little better...perhaps then you would not make so many empty accusations. Unlike you I cannot bear to have someone ask a question and have to say "I dunno". If the answer is in the Bible, then as Christ's disciples, that is what we use to silence ignorance as Jesus did.
How do we know what is in the Bible if we don't read it? Do you not have access to the same information as I have?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
This is a lot for a couple simple concerns and observations.

I am a stickler for detail so when you ask a question, I will give you as full an answer as I think it deserves.

The time gap of miracles between B.C. and today before and after the apostles is very extanishing. I can kinda see if christians believed in miracles and things millions of years ago. You would think age matters; but, its interesting that the closer to today we come, the less miracles we have.

Miracles in the OT were often used to prove the superiority of Jehovah over the other gods that people of the nations worshipped. Often battles were fought in the name of a nation's god. David for example, challenged Goliath in the name of his God....and won. The god of the Philistines was humiliated along with his champion, now minus his head. :eek:

In Egypt, Pharaoh had his magic practicing priests perform tricks to rival that of Moses' miracles. God proved to be superior as Egypt found out when they were subjected to a series of plagues. Pharaoh could have stopped them at any time by giving God what he asked for voluntarily, but he stubbornly refused....so all of the 10 plagues, including the last one that claimed the life of his son and heir, were entirely his own fault.

During a period of spiritual weakness and bad leadership, Israel came to adopt the worship of Baal, so the prophet Elijah showed them the superiority of his God compared to the false god Baal with a test. Of course the false god was humiliated....as they always were.

At other times miracles protected God's people from harm, hunger and thirst. Not just anyone was given these powers to perform what is supernatural, but God chose only worthy ones to represent him on earth.

I wonder if we transported ourselves back then (which wasnt that long ago) would we have the same thoughts as today. I honestly doubt it. I cant think of another way to explain how the time gaps being so short together but the wildest miracles happen before The Church and not after the church of jesus's last apostle.

What do you mean by "the wildest miracles"....what miracles are these?

I mean, things change every generation! Can you imagine what we are applying to B.C. that we cant even fathom what went on (and dont claim to) five hundred years before our lifetime?

Reilgion not excused of this logic.

Still not sure what you mean here....

If you had lived in the times of ancient Israel after their release from Egyptian slavery, you would have witnessed some incredible things even as they were sentenced to wandering in the wilderness for their constant complaining and rebellious attitude. Despite all that, God fed them and provided water and even their clothing and footwear didn't wear out for the whole 40 years they wandered in a parched wilderness before entering the Promised Land.
They had a pillar of cloud to guide them by day and a pillar of fire at night.
They had witnessed the parting of the Red Sea, as God rescued them from a seemingly impossible situation and witnessed God's final victory over a stubborn and proud man.

If you had lived in the time of Jesus and his apostles, you would have witnessed healings and perhaps even resurrections. The apostles continued to manifest the gifts of the spirit after Jesus' death, but they were not to last. They were used only to furnish evidence that God had now shifted his favor over to the Christian arrangement. Once the new arrangement was firmly established, the gifts were no longer necessary.

The Bible told us to expect the gifts to cease because there were now more mature reasons to follow Jesus and to spread his message in all the world.
 
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lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, and you know what that tells me? It tells me that she was a "thinker", not just a follower.

It's good to question, imo. It's good to say "I don't know", imo.

She was not a perfect person, and I'm certainly not a perfect person, but what she did in India was amazing. I personally know a former priest that worked in India to help her out for roughly a year, and he said he was in awe of what she was doing and how many lives she touched-- flaws and all.

Just for clarity, I'm not drawing any conclusions from it, other than I found it interesting.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I find Jesus P.C. (political correctness) was his and his followers being neutral in world affairs.
Why would God be so much concerned about choosing leaders, such as David in the Tanakh, and then supposedly turn around in the NT and teach "Who cares?". Since the Romans were in control during Jesus' time, not Jews, this is why we see not much reference to "worldly affairs", as you call them.

Jesus never said to set up charities a part of worship, but to show a Samaritan-type love on a one-on-one basis.
False, as Paul is trying to drum up financial support to help the Church, including widows and orphans.

The idea that Jesus and the Church really don't care about helping them in an organized manner defies what's mandated in Torah, defies what is covered in various verses in the N.T., and defies what we know the early Church did in even risking their lives to help the poor and sick, such as trying to work with leapers in the 2nd century as has been known. The Church was an organization, not a "just do your own thing" free-for-all.

Also, agape' love would be loving Jesus as he wanted to be loved and remembered as per Luke 22:19.
"Agape" extends to others as the gospel mandates, which can be easily derived from the Sermon On the Mount and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats.

Therefore, your argument is not with me but with the Bible itself.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
At other times miracles protected God's people from harm, hunger and thirst. Not just anyone was given these powers to perform what is supernatural, but God chose only worthy ones to represent him on earth.

The miracles were only in the B.C. era, though. Almost as if yesterday compared to billions of years ago. It doesnt sem close to some but only 3,000 some odd years?

....

What do you mean by "the wildest miracles"....what miracles are these?

Any event outside the laws of nature and physics. Nothing specific.

If the apostles existed within the last hundred years, would people believe their last miracles existed? Why or why not?

The Bible told us to expect the gifts to cease because there were now more mature reasons to follow Jesus and to spread his message in all the world.

If it happened in the past hundreds instead of thousands of yeas, would that change the perception on this?

I cant get over this gap of what one can do in the B.C. that stopped short of C.E. Even with Bahai, which is a bit more confusing, still bambussles me.

I dont separate Pagans (Greek gods etc) from abrahamic gods; because, they have the same sense of authority, personification, etc that other gods and goddesses have. The details of these particular gods does not make true more than another.

It would be easier if these beliefs happened in the past hundred years, we would have a better idea (objective) of what and who these gods are. If we can only depend on testimonies, it really doesnt go that far without the believers imput.

But, outside of personal relationship and attachment, would nature of miracles exist (like Mother Teresa) nowadays as they did before?

I know the apostles stop but that wasnt too long ago. The Church still stands.

Kinda see my confusion??
 
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