Canonization of the Saints

I was watching the movie Stigmata. The movie is about a teenage atheist who received the marks of the Stigmata. A Catholic priest is in charge of investigating and disproving the miracles associated with the Stigmata of the girl. The priest and Church had a conflict of opinions.

There is a common thought that miracles in jesus day are not around during these time periods. However, through The Causes of the Saints, determines what is a miracle these days as compared to days of old. Thousands of christians not specific to a denomination believe in miracles of christ. Ideally, they have no cut-off period. However, some christians think so...how, I dont know. No one answered me yet.

Anyhow, the latest modern mariacles are that of Mother Teressa. She was canonized as a saint in 1997:

The first took place in West Bengal, India, and involved the healing of an Indian woman, Monica Besra, whose abdominal tumor was so severe that her doctors abandoned hope of saving her. Taken into the care of the Missionaries of Charity, she continued to decline and endured such agony from the tumor that she could no longer sleep. On the one-year anniversary of Mother’s passing, the sisters at the home placed a Miraculous Medal that had been touched to the body of Mother Teresa on Besra’s stomach. The suffering woman fell asleep, and when she woke up, her pain was gone. Doctors examined her and found the reason why: The tumor had disappeared completely.

Click to expand...

The Miracles That Made Mother Teresa a Saint

Discussion/question is what is your opinion of the Causes of the Saints? Without belittling The Church, is there some validity in The Church's decisions in who they beautify as a saint?

When The Church canonized Teressa, they skipped one step which was to wait three months. I cant remember the reason. What is your opinion of the 1997 miracles?

Do they compare to miracles of jesus day in regards to context not specific to parting the red sea and people waking up from the dead.

Discuss.

Unveiled Artist said:

is there some validity in The Church's decisions in who they beautify as a saint?

Click to expand...

I am obviously not a Christian but this thread is not limited so for what it's worth: Personally I think the greatest miracles are: life itself including the smile of a baby, a rose in perfect bloom, kitties and puppies at play and much much more.

Even more, to me a miracle is someone overcoming their lower nature to become ever more loving and expressing that loving in the same way that the sun shines on the worthy and unworthy alike.

Whether such people heal someone or don't, they have become "friends of God" and act according to the divine will.

The only ones who can truly reflect on the status of such people are those who are likewise "friends of God".

Unveiled Artist said:

There is a common thought that miracles in jesus day are not around during these time periods. However, through The Causes of the Saints, determines what is a miracle these days as compared to days of old. Thousands of christians not specific to a denomination believe in miracles of christ. Ideally, they have no cut-off period. However, some christians think so...how, I dont know. No one answered me yet.

Click to expand...

The Bible itself speaks of a cut-off period for the miracles that Jesus and his apostles performed. They were never supposed to be a permanent arrangement, but merely a demonstration on a small scale of the blessings of the Kingdom to come.

Paul spoke of the need for miracles as something that spiritual 'infants' needed to see and respond to. Miracles were performed by Moses and other prophets in the OT. But Jesus gave his disciples the ability to perform miracles initially by the use of his name.

After his death and resurrection, the holy spirit empowered the disciples to speak in different languages, to heal the sick, and even to raise the dead. But Paul indicated that miracles would only be performed during the apostolic period, since the passing on of the gifts was always accomplished by the laying on of their hands. Once the apostles died, the gifts died with them.

Paul wrote..."Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with.. . . .When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. . . . .Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 13:8; 11; 13)

So instead of miracles, there would be other more mature things to indicate a person's devotion to God as a disciple of his Christ...."faith, hope and love".

Unveiled Artist said:

Discussion/question is what is your opinion of the Causes of the Saints? Without belittling The Church, is there some validity in The Church's decisions in who they beautify as a saint?

Click to expand...

The Bible confirms that the choosing of "saints" (holy ones with a heavenly calling. Hebrews 3:1) was left entirely in God's jurisdiction. It isn't the church who chooses a saint, it is God. And it is done whilst the person is alive...not after they have died.

Romans 8:15-17....
"For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."

Acts 9:32, 36-41, (Jerusalem Bible): “Peter visited one place after another and eventually came to the saints [ha·giʹous] living down in Lydda. At Jaffa there was a woman disciple called Tabitha [who died] . . . [Peter] turned to the dead woman and said, ‘Tabitha, stand up’. She opened her eyes, looked at Peter and sat up. Peter helped her to her feet, then he called in the saints and widows and showed them she was alive.”

Clearly, these saints were not yet in heaven, nor was it just an outstanding individual such as Peter who was viewed as a saint.

2 Cor. 1:1; 13:12, JB: “From Paul, appointed by God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from Timothy, one of the brothers, to the church of God at Corinth and to all the saints [ha·giʹois] in the whole of Achaia.” “Greet one another with the holy kiss. All the saints send you greetings.”

All these early Christians who were cleansed by the blood of Christ and set apart for God’s service as prospective "joint heirs with Christ" in his heavenly kingdom were referred to as saints, or holy ones. You can see that recognition of their being "saints" was obviously not deferred until after they had died.

Unveiled Artist said:

When The Church cantanized Teressa, they skipped one step which was to wait three months. I cant remember the reason. What is your opinion of the 1997 miracles?

Click to expand...

Since these so-called miracles were accomplished after "Mother Teresa" had died, it is really relying on superstition rather than on what the Bible tells us about "saints".

Unveiled Artist said:

Do they compare to miracles of jesus day in regards to context not specific to parting the red sea and people waking up from the dead.

Click to expand...

No miracles performed after the death of the apostles is genuine. No miracle performed by Jesus or the apostles was useless either. (No weeping statues or stigmata or anything else that smacks of superstition.) The Bible indicates that the devil can perform tricks too.

Those upon whom the gifts of the spirit were bestowed may have used the gifts until they passed away but there was no one left to pass the gifts onto others...and there was no need. The Christian congregation was then firmly established and the writings of Paul and the other apostles such as John and Peter were used as a basis for teaching about the Lord Jesus and the importance of his mission to rescue faithful ones from the sin inherited from Adam. (Romans 5:12)

I'm afraid that the Catholic church has deviated from what is taught in scripture and taken on a role that actually belongs to God alone.

Deeje said:

The Bible itself speaks of a cut-off period for the miracles that Jesus and his apostles performed. They were never supposed to be a permanent arrangement, but merely a demonstration on a small scale of the blessings of the Kingdom to come.

Paul spoke of the need for miracles as something that spiritual 'infants' needed to see and respond to. Miracles were performed by Moses and other prophets in the OT. But Jesus gave his disciples the ability to perform miracles initially by the use of his name.

After his death and resurrection, the holy spirit empowered the disciples to speak in different languages, to heal the sick, and even to raise the dead. But Paul indicated that miracles would only be performed during the apostolic period, since the passing on of the gifts was always accomplished by the laying on of their hands. Once the apostles died, the gifts died with them.

Paul wrote..."Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with.. . . .When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. . . . .Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 13:8; 11; 13)

So instead of miracles, there would be other more mature things to indicate a person's devotion to God as a disciple of his Christ...."faith, hope and love".



The Bible confirms that the choosing of "saints" (holy ones with a heavenly calling. Hebrews 3:1) was left entirely in God's jurisdiction. It isn't the church who chooses a saint, it is God. And it is done whilst the person is alive...not after they have died.

Romans 8:15-17....
"For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."

Acts 9:32, 36-41, (Jerusalem Bible): “Peter visited one place after another and eventually came to the saints [ha·giʹous] living down in Lydda. At Jaffa there was a woman disciple called Tabitha [who died] . . . [Peter] turned to the dead woman and said, ‘Tabitha, stand up’. She opened her eyes, looked at Peter and sat up. Peter helped her to her feet, then he called in the saints and widows and showed them she was alive.”

Clearly, these saints were not yet in heaven, nor was it just an outstanding individual such as Peter who was viewed as a saint.

2 Cor. 1:1; 13:12, JB: “From Paul, appointed by God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from Timothy, one of the brothers, to the church of God at Corinth and to all the saints [ha·giʹois] in the whole of Achaia.” “Greet one another with the holy kiss. All the saints send you greetings.”

All these early Christians who were cleansed by the blood of Christ and set apart for God’s service as prospective "joint heirs with Christ" in his heavenly kingdom were referred to as saints, or holy ones. You can see that recognition of their being "saints" was obviously not deferred until after they had died.



Since these so-called miracles were accomplished after "Mother Teresa" had died, it is really relying on superstition rather than on what the Bible tells us about "saints".



No miracles performed after the death of the apostles is genuine. No miracle performed by Jesus or the apostles was useless either. (No weeping statues or stigmata or anything else that smacks of superstition.) The Bible indicates that the devil can perform tricks too.

Those upon whom the gifts of the spirit were bestowed may have used the gifts until they passed away but there was no one left to pass the gifts onto others...and there was no need. The Christian congregation was then firmly established and the writings of Paul and the other apostles such as John and Peter were used as a basis for teaching about the Lord Jesus and the importance of his mission to rescue faithful ones from the sin inherited from Adam. (Romans 5:12)

I'm afraid that the Catholic church has deviated from what is taught in scripture and taken on a role that actually belongs to God alone.

Click to expand...

The Catholic Church does not "make" saints it "Recognises" them for what they are.

Seemingly impossible "Miracles" happen. As such we usually attribute them to God, and perhaps with or without the intervention of saints.
Seemingly Impossible "Miracles" happen..... what ever we may believe.

Deeje said:

The Bible itself speaks of a cut-off period for the miracles that Jesus and his apostles performed. They were never supposed to be a permanent arrangement, but merely a demonstration on a small scale of the blessings of the Kingdom to come.

Paul spoke of the need for miracles as something that spiritual 'infants' needed to see and respond to. Miracles were performed by Moses and other prophets in the OT. But Jesus gave his disciples the ability to perform miracles initially by the use of his name.

After his death and resurrection, the holy spirit empowered the disciples to speak in different languages, to heal the sick, and even to raise the dead. But Paul indicated that miracles would only be performed during the apostolic period, since the passing on of the gifts was always accomplished by the laying on of their hands. Once the apostles died, the gifts died with them.

Paul wrote..."Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with.. . . .When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. . . . .Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 13:8; 11; 13)

So instead of miracles, there would be other more mature things to indicate a person's devotion to God as a disciple of his Christ...."faith, hope and love".



The Bible confirms that the choosing of "saints" (holy ones with a heavenly calling. Hebrews 3:1) was left entirely in God's jurisdiction. It isn't the church who chooses a saint, it is God. And it is done whilst the person is alive...not after they have died.

Romans 8:15-17....
"For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."

Acts 9:32, 36-41, (Jerusalem Bible): “Peter visited one place after another and eventually came to the saints [ha·giʹous] living down in Lydda. At Jaffa there was a woman disciple called Tabitha [who died] . . . [Peter] turned to the dead woman and said, ‘Tabitha, stand up’. She opened her eyes, looked at Peter and sat up. Peter helped her to her feet, then he called in the saints and widows and showed them she was alive.”

Clearly, these saints were not yet in heaven, nor was it just an outstanding individual such as Peter who was viewed as a saint.

2 Cor. 1:1; 13:12, JB: “From Paul, appointed by God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from Timothy, one of the brothers, to the church of God at Corinth and to all the saints [ha·giʹois] in the whole of Achaia.” “Greet one another with the holy kiss. All the saints send you greetings.”

All these early Christians who were cleansed by the blood of Christ and set apart for God’s service as prospective "joint heirs with Christ" in his heavenly kingdom were referred to as saints, or holy ones. You can see that recognition of their being "saints" was obviously not deferred until after they had died.



Since these so-called miracles were accomplished after "Mother Teresa" had died, it is really relying on superstition rather than on what the Bible tells us about "saints".



No miracles performed after the death of the apostles is genuine. No miracle performed by Jesus or the apostles was useless either. (No weeping statues or stigmata or anything else that smacks of superstition.) The Bible indicates that the devil can perform tricks too.

Those upon whom the gifts of the spirit were bestowed may have used the gifts until they passed away but there was no one left to pass the gifts onto others...and there was no need. The Christian congregation was then firmly established and the writings of Paul and the other apostles such as John and Peter were used as a basis for teaching about the Lord Jesus and the importance of his mission to rescue faithful ones from the sin inherited from Adam. (Romans 5:12)

I'm afraid that the Catholic church has deviated from what is taught in scripture and taken on a role that actually belongs to God alone.

Click to expand...

I will have to come back, but thank you! Very much for detailed answers. I remember in scripture that jesus only performed miracles so that his disciples would see/have proof that God was working through jesus. But when jesus died, I assumed the holy spirit took over. But I do find it off that miracles would stop after the apostles. The huge time gap from then and now doesn't seem that long ago....

But anyway,....to be coninued

Terrywoodenpic said:

The Catholic Church does not "make" saints it "Recognises" them for what they are.

Seemingly impossible "Miracles" happen. As such we usually attribute them to God, and perhaps with or without the intervention of saints.
Seemingly Impossible "Miracles" happen..... what ever we may believe.

Click to expand...

Since there are so many people on the planet, why does The Church recognize some well known people as saints, but if a person was not well known, would they go through a similar process?

How would Mother Teresa be different than others for her to receive recognize for miracles that ideally happen all the time?

Unveiled Artist said:

Since there are so many people on the planet, why does The Church recognize some well known people as saints, but if a person was not well known, would they go through a similar process?

How would Mother Teresa be different than others for her to receive recognize for miracles that ideally happen all the time?

Click to expand...

Most saints are not well known at all. They all have to fulfill the same criteria and tests (investigations) to be recognised, these include recognised "miracles"

It is of course possible that just as many "Saints" are never recognised.
In a similar way there must be just as many unrecognised and unattributed Miracles.

Terrywoodenpic said:

Most saints are not well known at all. They all have to fulfill the same criteria and tests (investigations) to be recognised, these include recognised "miracles"

It is of course possible that just as many "Saints" are never recognised.
In a similar way there must be just as many unrecognised and unattributed Miracles.

Click to expand...

So people need to perform supernatural miracles? Gifts from god can come in mundane forms as well.

Unveiled Artist said:

I was watching the movie Stigmata. The movie is about a teenage atheist who received the marks of the Stigmata. A Catholic priest is in charge of investigating and disproving the miracles associated with the Stigmata of the girl. The priest and Church had a conflict of opinions.

There is a common thought that miracles in jesus day are not around during these time periods. However, through The Causes of the Saints, determines what is a miracle these days as compared to days of old. Thousands of christians not specific to a denomination believe in miracles of christ. Ideally, they have no cut-off period. However, some christians think so...how, I dont know. No one answered me yet.

Anyhow, the latest modern mariacles are that of Mother Teressa. She was canonized as a saint in 1997:

The Miracles That Made Mother Teresa a Saint

Discussion/question is what is your opinion of the Causes of the Saints? Without belittling The Church, is there some validity in The Church's decisions in who they beautify as a saint?

When The Church canonized Teressa, they skipped one step which was to wait three months. I cant remember the reason. What is your opinion of the 1997 miracles?

Do they compare to miracles of jesus day in regards to context not specific to parting the red sea and people waking up from the dead.

Discuss.

Click to expand...

"Without belittling The Church, is there some validity in The Church's decisions in who they beautify as a saint?"

Yes. Some saints are worthless such as most popes but some deserve their place in the churches vsrsion of hall of fame. There are reasons this comes about.

David T said:

"Without belittling The Church, is there some validity in The Church's decisions in who they beautify as a saint?"

Yes. Some saints are worthless such as most popes but some deserve their place in the churches vsrsion of hall of fame. There are reasons this comes about.

Click to expand...

Worthless?

Unveiled Artist said:

Worthless?

Click to expand...

Some... in Particular some popes. The process isnt magically inerrant nor is it devoid at times of politics.

David T said:

Some... in Particular some popes. The process isnt magically inerrant nor is it devoid at times of politics.

Click to expand...

I never heard of people being worthless in my head. Maybe they made poor actions but worthless as a person?

I think only God can decide who is a saint. And I am not sure any group of humans has the ability to "recognize" them.

Unveiled Artist said:

I was watching the movie Stigmata. The movie is about a teenage atheist who received the marks of the Stigmata. A Catholic priest is in charge of investigating and disproving the miracles associated with the Stigmata of the girl. The priest and Church had a conflict of opinions.

There is a common thought that miracles in jesus day are not around during these time periods. However, through The Causes of the Saints, determines what is a miracle these days as compared to days of old. Thousands of christians not specific to a denomination believe in miracles of christ. Ideally, they have no cut-off period. However, some christians think so...how, I dont know. No one answered me yet.

Anyhow, the latest modern mariacles are that of Mother Teressa. She was canonized as a saint in 1997:

The Miracles That Made Mother Teresa a Saint

Discussion/question is what is your opinion of the Causes of the Saints? Without belittling The Church, is there some validity in The Church's decisions in who they beautify as a saint?

When The Church canonized Teressa, they skipped one step which was to wait three months. I cant remember the reason. What is your opinion of the 1997 miracles?

Do they compare to miracles of jesus day in regards to context not specific to parting the red sea and people waking up from the dead.

Discuss.

Click to expand...

The canonization by the Roman church, a daughter of Babylon, would be a mark in the negative column. If one wants to be "healed" they need to confess their sins, and find a righteous person to pray for them (James 5:14-16). The problem is finding a "righteous person". God does not "listen to sinners" (John 9:31).

New International Version John 9:31
We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will.

Unveiled Artist said:

Worthless?

Click to expand...

Well, to be fair, Constantine, the "beast with two horns like a lamb", was declared a saint by the Eastern Church. This after murdering his wife and son. I am sure the "dragon" was pleased (Revelation 13). Constantine, as well as the popes, claimed the title of Pontifex Maximus.

Unveiled Artist said:

Discussion/question is what is your opinion of the Causes of the Saints? Without belittling The Church, is there some validity in The Church's decisions in who they beautify as a saint?

When The Church canonized Teressa, they skipped one step which was to wait three months. I cant remember the reason. What is your opinion of the 1997 miracles?

Do they compare to miracles of jesus day in regards to context not specific to parting the red sea and people waking up from the dead.

Click to expand...

I really don't much getting into the naming of "saints" but I do feel it's worthwhile reading their biographies because there are some remarkable stories involved.

As to miracles, why not? Do they in reality happen? I don't know, but why is it that many believe in miracles happening in the past but not closer to the present?

Deeje said:

The Bible itself speaks of a cut-off period for the miracles that Jesus and his apostles performed. They were never supposed to be a permanent arrangement, but merely a demonstration on a small scale of the blessings of the Kingdom to come.

Click to expand...

Please show us the verse(s) that supposedly says that as nothing you posted says or suggests that. And please try and just answer the question without writing an essay or giving a sermon. You should easily be able to show us in one paragraph if it's there.

2ndpillar said:

The canonization by the Roman church, a daughter of Babylon, would be a mark in the negative column. If one wants to be "healed" they need to confess their sins, and find a righteous person to pray for them (James 5:14-16). The problem is finding a "righteous person". God does not "listen to sinners" (John 9:31).

New International Version John 9:31
We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will.

Click to expand...

Without insult....

Unveiled Artist said:

I will have to come back, but thank you! Very much for detailed answers. I remember in scripture that jesus only performed miracles so that his disciples would see/have proof that God was working through jesus. But when jesus died, I assumed the holy spirit took over. But I do find it off that miracles would stop after the apostles. The huge time gap from then and now doesn't seem that long ago....

But anyway,....to be coninued

Click to expand...

Healing the sick was apparently not limited to the apostles. Declaring that the "kingdom of heaven has come near to you" and healing the sick was given to the 70/72 disciples according to Luke 10:1-10. As the kingdom of heaven is at hand, and can be found by those who seek it (Matthew 6:9), the only problem is that the "many" have chosen instead to follow the wide path to destruction (Matthew 7:13). That path would be the path of lawlessness (Matthew 7:23), and as the wicked, "receive of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4).

2ndpillar said:

Well, to be fair, Constantine, the "beast with two horns like a lamb", was declared a saint by the Eastern Church. This after murdering his wife and son. I am sure the "dragon" was pleased (Revelation 13). Constantine, as well as the popes, claimed the title of Pontifex Maximus.

Click to expand...

I don't see people as worthless. Not spiritually healthy for me. But I can imagine their actions and intent may be immoral.