Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
At its fastest it was between 2 and 3 inches per year. Still very leisurely.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
Still just childishly throwing rocks from the sidelines, eh? No interest at all in backing up your assertions, clarifying your claims, or even answering simple questions?
Not surprising I guess.....just lumps you in with the rest of the creationist rabble for whom questions are kryptonite.
Jesus said: “No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other.....You cannot slave for God and for Riches.” (Matt. 6:24) Were any of Jesus apostles educated men? Why not?
“I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.” (Matthew 11:25)
"When the rulers and older men of Jerusalem “beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering.” (Acts 4:13)
Is there a message in there?
Perhaps you needed to study the Bible rather than theology.....its more 'educational' IMV.
You seem to have no idea of what the "whole picture" entails. That is something I have found in common with the Catholic people I have studied with. They are not taught to think, but only to perform. When you question the performance, they struggle to explain any of it.
Can you tell us what the Bible's basic scenario is all about from the Catholic theological viewpoint that you taught.....?
Excuse me?
I am saying that the ones appointed to lead the church are under scriptural obligation to uphold the teachings of Christ. When those teaching are not upheld, or other doctrines are added, then the leaders are accountable if they do nothing about such departures, be they moral or scriptural. (Hebrews 13:17; 1 Corinthians 5:9-13; 2 John 9-10) It was why Jesus so roundly condemned the Pharisees, for replacing the word of God with the traditions of men. (Matthew 15:7-9)LOL....Not that the Pope does that or anything.....
Did Jesus go to Mass? On Passover night, did he turn the host into his literal flesh and the wine into his literal blood? He would have broken the law of God in doing so....why would he tell his disciples to do that?
Where will I find a Pope in first century Christianity? (Hint: Peter was one of 12 apostles, none of which was head of the others. Jesus chastised them for arguing about who was the greatest among them.)
Where will I find a trinity in Judaism or in original Christianity? If God forbade the "making" of "any" image used in worship, why are Catholic churches full of images? Who can argue that they not part of Catholic worship?
Where will I find evolution hidden in the creation account?
Jesus required that his disciples obey God's word to the letter, just like he did.... you can't just pick and choose what you want to believe. Its all or nothing.
When Jesus said we were to 'love our enemies and pray for our persecutors', why are Christendom's clergy at the forefront of encouraging and justifying their nation's bloodshed, even to the point of killing their own "brothers" who happen to live in another nation? (Matthew 5:43-45; 1 John 4:20; Isaiah 1:15)
That is a personal attack metis....everything I say is what I believe.....that is not lying. There is no need to get nasty.....childish snipes just make responders look foolish and a little desperate....ya know?
Where will I find a Mass celebrated by Christians in the Bible?
Where will I find elaborate cathedrals and priests dressed in distinctive clothing walking around with incense smoke or holy water?And when prayers are offered, what did Jesus say when giving the model prayer to his disciples....?
"7 ‘When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 ‘Pray then in this way:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven." (Matthew 6:7-10)
Christians were not to repeat mindless prayers but to use Jesus prayer as a model for their own.
Ritual was not part of Christian worship.
There.....you see the problem? Its mindless repetition, based on what a church says should be said and done...but not on what Christ said his followers should do. Please don't pretend that Christendom's churches follow Christ's teachings...they adopted many beliefs from the Gentile heathens and passed them off as if Jesus gave them permission to teach lies. Have you ever compared what your church teaches with what Jesus taught? There is not even a similarity.
More childish snipes metis...really...is that necessary?
Perhaps I understand the "gospel" and church history as much as you think you do? I have spent most of my adult life making sure that what I believe is in line with scripture, not church introduced doctrine, borrowed from paganism. Whatta shame you can't see that. The "weeds" of Jesus' parable were not planted recently. (Matthew 13:36-43; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 2 Peter 2:20-22) History provides all we need to identify them.
Please read what you just said again.....are you now judging my brotherhood?...based on what? The experience of your neighbors? Every organization of imperfect people is gonna have rebels in the camp....God had to put up with rebellion even in heaven....and then in the garden of Eden. When did we ever say that the individuals in our brotherhood are perfect? Its how you handle the rebels that matters. God gave the leaders in the congregations the right to judge those within their ranks, whilst God judges those outside of it. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13; Hebrews 13:17)
We get accused of judging too much.....but look what happens in a church that judges too little?
Its hard to defend a church that has so publicly let down its most vulnerable members in all the nations where it set itself up to "take care" of them. Imagine if all those millions of dollars spent compensating the victims of clergy abuse were spent on the poor and homeless?
The Pope lives in a gold inlaid palace.....where did Jesus live?
More snipes metis? More "Stepford Wives"? What about the facts? Perhaps cleaning up your own backyard might help before you throw garbage into ours. "Ignorance" seems to be operative word in this discussion, more's the pity.
A glass house is a poor place from which to throw stones. Seriously.....
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It is a lose lose situation for you. Either way, if you were lying or not you do not come out looking very good. How many times after a person's errors are corrected does it take for that person to be lying?
Where will I find a Mass celebrated by Christians in the Bible?
There is precedent for quite a bit of that in the Old Testament. Still part of the Bible last time that I checked.
Anything repeated mindlessly tends to become ritual over the years. I am sure that there are even JW services have their rituals. Rituals are quite often invisible to those that follow them.
Like the mindless denial of the sciences by JW's? The unjustified ignorance of reality by your cult? I don't think that Jesus ever advocated that.
You put your "understanding" through a filter based on your biases. As a result you will misinterpret quite a few parts of the Bible.
As bad as the Catholic Church is the JW cult is worse today. There are some huge wrongs still done by the Catholic Church. But only a small percentage of their flock is affected by them. The JW's try to screw over all of their followers. And worse yet if one comes to one's senses. At least the Catholic Church does not advocate shunning members of one's family.
Oh my, oh my, oh my. There goes a whole fleet of irony meters.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
Wow. Rarely does someone openly admit to such a bizarre thing. Apparently if I believe Deeje is a psychotic delusional liar, then it wouldn't be lying for me to say so.
Last edited:
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Because you are ignorant as to what the Church actually teaches as we've seen many times, and you show your ignorance and dishonesty all too often by "bearing false witness" by claiming falsehoods about the Church.
To love God and all of God's creation through our thoughts and actions.
As has been explained many times, in Catholicism, the Church, including the Pope, has the right and obligation to teach, but we have the obligation as Catholics to listen but then make our own moral decisions. You, otoh, are obligated to follow the dictates of your masters, thus my reference to you being the equivalent of a "Stepford wife". If you think this is not true, the next time you go into your kingdom hall and tell them that you've reconsidered and decide that the basic ToE must be correct and then see what happens next.LOL....Not that the Pope does that or anything.....
Jesus went to synagogue, which you apparently are not aware of, and there's a liturgy of sorts that would have been involved. Maybe study the gospels and find this out for yourself, such as when Jesus visited the synagogue and did a reading with a short homily (commentary).
You are obviously unfamiliar with Ignatius' letter to Clement dealing with such, plus you appear to be ignorant of the fact that when the apostles are named, Peter's name is almost always first, and sometimes it just says "Peter and the others". Also, a reminder the it is Jesus who told Peter "Feed my sheep...", and it was Peter that Paul approached with his questions.
It is based on the well-established fact that the early Church believed that Jesus was of God and that the Holy Spirit was also of God, and that's the basis pf the Trinitarian concept that's found in your Bible, Deeje.
This has been covered many times as a "graven image" that's forbidden is one that is made and worshiped. Maybe actually look it up for yourself, Deeje.
1st day, 2nd day, ...
The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses does not give aid to the poor and the homeless except to order their followers to study the Bible with them.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
When you repeat dishonesty after it's been clearly shown that what you have posted is not what the Church actually teaches or does, for example, that's lying, regardless of what you may believe.
Notice the utter hypocrisy with your above two posts, Deeje. You claim I use a "personal attack" and yet look at what the above sentence says. Again, you just wallow in ignorance and dishonesty on a pretty much constant basis.
He doesn't own it, plus he sleeps in a one bedroom apartment. Do you own your own home, Deeje? If so, you have more than he personally has. And have you taken a vow of poverty, Deeje? He has, so you undoubtedly have more money.
More childish playing the victim comments, Deeje?
Anyhow, I wish I could say discussing things with you has been a pleasure, but that would be a lie, but unlike you I don't lie. You can comment on the above two posts but I'm just sick and tired of your unethical shenanigans, so I'm going to take a bit of a break for a while because your dishonesty simply disgusts me. IMO, you actually disgrace your JW's with such disingenuous tactics, and you certainly aren't doing them any favors.
Goodbye for a while.
Tell me where Jesus recommended charity as something that needed top priority. We are not in the business of helping those who will not help themselves. "Rice Christians" aren't real Christians as foreign missionaries soon found out.
As a result of his ministry, what did Jesus say that the poor were receiving?
"the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have good news brought to them." (Matthew 11:5)
What were the poor given.....? The good news about God's Kingdom. A real hope for the future that gave them the motivation to better themselves now and to share the good news with others.
The parable of the Good Samaritan shows that anyone can be a good neighbor and provide what is needed in a real life situation of hardship, but what Jesus never promoted was hand to mouth charity. He didn't just hand his disciples a fish but gave them dignity and taught them how to fish.
As Paul said..."Anyone unwilling to work should not eat."
How many charities these days are being exposed as businesses profiting off the needy? Catholics do not participate in the most important work that Jesus commanded. (Matthew 28:19-20) I have never had a Catholic turn up at my doorstep to tell me the "good news"....yet people had to hear it....How?
Paul answers...."But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him?"
How many Catholic people proclaim the good news when the majority of them have no idea what it is?
If you'd like to start a thread metis, I will show you clearly from the scriptures the difference between Christendom and JW's....just using the Bible.
Are you up for that?
John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.
We know. But, what will be much more interesting is to reveal what is the same between Christendom and JW's.
It doesn't take a genius to see that the church does exactly what the Pharisees did....As Jesus said..."for the sake of your tradition, you make void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied rightly about you when he said:
8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me, teaching human precepts as doctrines.’”
What the church says and what it practices are two entirely different things.
Nope...that is not the gospel. Not even close. That is what is produced in believers, but it isn't the good news.
It begins in Genesis with the need for the savior in the first place.....God providing him through one chosen nation used as an example to all of the benefits of obeying their God and the pitfalls of disobeying him. It showed what Christ suffered at the hands of his own people and set a precedent for all genuine disciples of Christ who would follow in his footsteps. It is Christ's death that frees us from sin by paying a ransom, and his kingdom, that will come to rule this earth for all eternity will "come" to this earth...eliminating all opposers to the truth of God's word.
Revelation is the conclusion of what began in Genesis...its all one story. The "good news" is about God's Kingdom. Most people have no idea what they have been praying for their whole life.....how sad.
Does making your own moral decisions include ignoring the teachings of Jesus Christ? Can you do so and commit immorality with impunity? Do you just rock up to a confessional and be granted absolution by an equally sinful priest, so that you can go out and do the very same thing again? Where will I find that in scripture?
Was Jesus Jewish or Catholic? Was Christianity based on Judaism or is it Christendom who copied it? ? Who were the priests in the first century Christian congregations?
Christians were no longer allowed in the synagogues, so where did they meet for worship?
I would expect a Jew to worship as a Jew....but we are talking about Christians.....how did Jesus' disciples worship? They were kicked out of the temple and not allowed in the synagogues because they were seen as apostates. But the real apostates were their accusers.
I am interested only in scripture...Ignatius never wrote scripture, for a reason I suspect.
Peter's role was simply Jesus using his strengths, just as Jesus used Paul's. Each made contributions to scripture but the majority of the 12 wrote nothing. Yet the foundations of the Kingdom are all 12 apostles....one no greater than the others. (Revelation 21:14)
No metis, be truthful....Jesus IS God, the Holy Spirit IS God, and the Father IS God......that is the foundation of the trinity.....all three are God but they all fit into one head so that no one can accuse the church of polytheism.
Was there any trinity in Judaism? Is there a trinity is any Abrahamic religion except Christendom? Are there trinities in paganism?
Again the church is not being truthful metis. Images were not to be "made" let alone worshipped.
God's law stated...
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth." (Tanach) That pretty much rules out an image of anything.
What makes something a "graven image"? It is usually carved or shaped to resemble something or someone.
If the command was NOT to MAKE a carved image, then the church is full of representations of Jesus and Mary that are most certainly seen in Catholic worship....what conclusion can be drawn?
This is not idolatry...???? Who are they kidding? Surely even you can see this...?
God created what he said he created in those allotted periods. No Christians should sell out to what science can only suggest might have happened.
Where is the faith? (Hebrews 11:6)
A vow of poverty includes three meals a day, clothing, shoes and everything else supplied, with free overseas trips....AND an apartment in a palace? I should be so poor.
BTW, I didn't take a vow of poverty metis....but I'm not rich. My basic needs are met and I am content. (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Metis you have "discussed" nothing. All I have had from you is insults, justifications and a refusal to address half of what I posted to you about the teachings of your church. If you really think I am dishonest, then we can examine our differences and see who is keeping to the teachings of the Christ and who is just pretending to.....
Can your church's teachings stand up to scrutiny? Lets take them apart one at a time and see how closely they adhere to the teachings of the one they claim as their god.
This is not the forum for such a discussion.
Yes, I did.....you asked:
....and I linked the above -- "without evident precursors" -- from the New World Encyclopedia, a source which underpins current scientific views.
Take care.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
That sounds possible.
As already mentioned I have read that sea levels could rise 70 meters if all the ice would melt. So that's a further 300ft+ rise all over again.
I always considered the stories about giant waves washing all away to be yet more mythical nonsense, like the kraken and so forth. And then, one morning, there were these pictures of a disaster that had swept over Far Eastern shores, killing thousands, and I saw what was left of Phuket.
Oh yes...... and I don't snub stories of great floods, or giant waves any more. I don't snub stories of great walls falling down either. Rochester Castle is only 27 miles up thre road.
Much of the bible is good history, I reckon. Better than that of recent times, even. In a thousand years, will idiots be trying to prove that William Wallis was only 5'10" and not the mythical 6'7" (whatever) because they've got a Mel Gibson film about it all?
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
OK.....
But if this big climate change affected the meteorology like ours is probably going to be affected, there were probably some horrendous storms with gigantic floods.
They must have happened many times before. I wonder how ditches like the Grand Canyon got so wide, so deep?
I reckon that much of the bible is quite accurate. More accurate than some of our daily newspapers can manage, I expect.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Yeah..... just now it is!(In your head!)
I must have dreamed about it last night! When we moan that 'science' has managed to get the world dirty in under 200 years, some folks will say that science is not responsible, science is just a tool anmd that it is how mankind has used and abused it that has caused the troubles. Well that's logical .... mankind shouldn't ever have been allowed to play with some of those science toys.
But this leads to the concept that Science is all knowledge that is there for the discovery. It is vast compared with the puny % that mankind has managed to gather in a million years. And so Science is Vast, maybe unbounded. Science is perfect. Science can not be bad (or good?).
That begins to look like a Deity. And folks are beginning to treat it as such, and I think I need to think about this some more, because it's interesting.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
That sounds possible.
As already mentioned I have read that sea levels could rise 70 meters if all the ice would melt. So that's a further 300ft+ rise all over again.
I always considered the stories about giant waves washing all away to be yet more mythical nonsense, like the kraken and so forth. And then, one morning, there were these pictures of a disaster that had swept over Far Eastern shores, killing thousands, and I saw what was left of Phuket.
Oh yes...... and I don't snub stories of great floods, or giant waves any more. I don't snub stories of great walls falling down either. Rochester Castle is only 27 miles up thre road.
Much of the bible is good history, I reckon. Better than that of recent times, even. In a thousand years, will idiots be trying to prove that William Wallis was only 5'10" and not the mythical 6'7" (whatever) because they've got a Mel Gibson film about it all?
Even with global warming it would take hundreds of years to melt the ice caps. Sea level rise was less than 3 inches a year at the fastest after the last glaciation. That was not the source of the Noah's Ark myth.