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Is Christmas Pagan?

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting there is nothing good at all in paganism?



No matter what good one accomplishes, if they partake off the table of demons, God says they cannot partake of his table. 1Cor 10:21)- its practiced sin= a worker of iniquity. Jesus warned those as well- Matt 7:21-23-- No mortal knows who is saved. Those teachers telling others-DO NOT KNOW.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
At least to me 'Santa is the god of Christmas' getting top billing.
I wonder how many trees are grown each year to be sacrificed to Santa______


Yes it is being made to look--loving and sharing--like this-2Corinthians 11:12-15. But the encyclopedias clearly show of the added pagan practices off the table of demons. One must ask themselves. Would Jesus accept that?
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I do consider Christmas a make over and adaptation of the ancient pagan Winter Solstice holiday, by the way so is the Easter season, and I consider Christian theology to be corrupted by pagan beliefs and in particular Roman pagan beliefs.

My preference is to celebrate the Winter Solstice as the Winter Solstice celebration.

I do not shame you for not 'liking' (What an understatement!!!) my or any (new?) religion. I am shaming you for your aggressive arrogant attitude, and misrepresentation of what others believe including mine.

Your kind of selective bout religions you choose to trash. You put a 200 limit, but not an even playing field that all religions were st one time less than 200 years. Well . . . .ah does the Baha'i Faith become suddenly OK in 2044 or 2063?

Your not acknowledging that I am expressing what I believe versus what I 'like' or condemn as many Christians do concerning those who believe differently. First I do not 'believe' ancient religions are relevant to the contemporary world. It is not a matter of liking nor disliking. Religions like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and ancient pagan beliefs I simply 'believe' they do not offer a universal message for humanity. They maintain a strong cultural and tribal orientation of ancient societies. Again this is a matter of differences of belief, and not like nor dislike.

Actually the evidence of history is that much of the rituals, beliefs, and cerimonies of Christianity are not original to testimony of the gospels and not the heritage of Judaism. They are as a matter of fact adopted from pagan and Roman religions. I do not condemn the believers of any religion as many if not most Christians do., but I do not believe Jesus Christ taught this and I do not believe in the polytheism of the ancient religions nor the polytheism adapted by traditional Christianity.

Monotheism is essentially the belief in only one God that reveals to humanity a Divine message, and by the evidence I consider Judaism, Islam and the Baha'i Faith pure Monotheistic religions, and not Christianity. I do not believe in man Gods, such as the traditional belief of the Trinity in Christianity.
No, Christmas is not pagan. Just stop.

The reason we celebrate it on December 25th is because it happens to fall 9 months after the Feast of the Annunciation, which is celebrated on March 25th. Christmas trees have nothing to do with Christian celebrations of Christmas, and don't exist outside of the German- and English-speaking worlds. Giving presents has nothing to do with Christian celebrations of Christmas, and this practice isn't found outside of Western Europe and its former colonial possessions. The word "Yule" has nothing to do with Christmas, and you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that burning a log in a fire is somehow a pagan practice. The myth of Santa Claus is derived from St. Nicholas of Smyrna, a real fourth-century Christian bishop who lived in Smyrna in Asia Minor. Originally, Christmas was celebrated on January 6th as part of the Feast of Theophany (the Baptism of Christ). All of the things that people decry as being "pagan" about Christmas are historically recent introductions to the Feast of the Lord's Nativity that are only found within a select few cultures around the world, and are by no means essential to Christian celebration of Christmas--in fact, we've gotten along just fine without them for the vast majority of history and in most countries around the world.


Moreover, the liturgical practices of Christianity are derived directly from Jewish synagogue worship and daily prayer of the first-century. Our Divine Liturgies, Masses, daily offices, styles of chanting and iconography all come directly out of the Jewish tradition of that era.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Yes it is being made to look--loving and sharing--like this-2Corinthians 11:12-15. But the encyclopedias clearly show of the added pagan practices off the table of demons. One must ask themselves. Would Jesus accept that?
God must be pretty weak compared to Satan if Satan is capable of corrupting absolutely everything about praising Christ and if God is utterly incapable of sanctifying even the smallest of human actions. I can't even burn a log in my fire or give a present without it being Satanic. If I were to believe the Jehovah's Witnesses' narrative about what's Satanic and what's not, I'd be forced to conclude that this world has been hopelessly and irrevocably lost from God's grasp almost from the words "Let there be". Satan is everywhere, and God is nowhere to be seen.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
My Uncle thought because the world war soldiers brought Christmas to Japan the Japanese would convert.
Liking or celebrating Christmas does Not make a convert.
Also, scripturally speaking, it is Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill. KJV changed it to goodwill to men.
Only if you go by the Latin Vulgate version. The Greek says "Peace and goodwill to men".
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
God must be pretty weak compared to Satan if Satan is capable of corrupting absolutely everything about praising Christ and if God is utterly incapable of sanctifying even the smallest of human actions. I can't even burn a log in my fire or give a present without it being Satanic. If I were to believe the Jehovah's Witnesses' narrative about what's Satanic and what's not, I'd be forced to conclude that this world has been hopelessly and irrevocably lost from God's grasp almost from the words "Let there be". Satan is everywhere, and God is nowhere to be seen.


Satan raised issues against God in the rebellion in Eden. God is letting it be proved wrong so it can never occur again. Mortals chose this system. Gods kingdom will be a cure all. All through mankinds history satan had-99% mislead.( Possibly when Israel stood strong the percentage was a little lower. )God was only with Israel in the OT as a religion. No others. Its the same today. One religion. Jesus started-ONE religion. Not 34,000.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
No, Christmas is not pagan. Just stop.

The reason we celebrate it on December 25th is because it happens to fall 9 months after the Feast of the Annunciation, which is celebrated on March 25th. Christmas trees have nothing to do with Christian celebrations of Christmas, and don't exist outside of the German- and English-speaking worlds. Giving presents has nothing to do with Christian celebrations of Christmas, and this practice isn't found outside of Western Europe and its former colonial possessions. The word "Yule" has nothing to do with Christmas, and you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that burning a log in a fire is somehow a pagan practice. The myth of Santa Claus is derived from St. Nicholas of Smyrna, a real fourth-century Christian bishop who lived in Smyrna in Asia Minor. Originally, Christmas was celebrated on January 6th as part of the Feast of Theophany (the Baptism of Christ). All of the things that people decry as being "pagan" about Christmas are historically recent introductions to the Feast of the Lord's Nativity that are only found within a select few cultures around the world, and are by no means essential to Christian celebration of Christmas--in fact, we've gotten along just fine without them for the vast majority of history and in most countries around the world.


Moreover, the liturgical practices of Christianity are derived directly from Jewish synagogue worship and daily prayer of the first-century. Our Divine Liturgies, Masses, daily offices, styles of chanting and iconography all come directly out of the Jewish tradition of that era.


Yes real Christianity serves the God-Israel serves in the OT up until this very day-YHVH(Jehovah) a single being God. Jesus' God-John 20:17, Rev 3:12
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Satan raised issues against God in the rebellion in Eden. God is letting it be proved wrong so it can never occur again. Mortals chose this system. Gods kingdom will be a cure all. All through mankinds history satan had-99% mislead.( Possibly when Israel stood strong the percentage was a little lower. )God was only with Israel in the OT as a religion. No others. Its the same today. One religion. Jesus started-ONE religion. Not 34,000.
"If you look for the light, you can often find it. But if you go looking for the dark, it is all you will ever see." Based on my conversations with many JW's on this forum, I'd have to say that you look more to find evil in things than you do to find what is good. This wasn't the way of St. Paul, who praised the pagan Athenians for their religious fervor, even for an unknown god. And even Jesus had some good words for the Pharisees; one of them (Nicodemus) was a close follower of His, and He instructed His disciples to do as the Pharisees said, but not as they did.

Can you find the good and the light of Christ in others? Can you find the seedlings of God's truth in other faith traditions and see how everyone has at least an inkling of the truth? Do you see the created world, its people and the ideas of the people, and see the light and the beauty lurking below the surface, waiting to shine forth? Or do you see nothing but Satan's grasp over all, with every last bit of truth stamped out, such that God will have to wash the world clean like during the flood and start afresh with His Kingdom at the Judgement?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Only if you go by the Latin Vulgate version. The Greek says "Peace and goodwill to men".

No, the Greek/ English Interlinear translation has ' and upon Earth peace in men of well thinking '.
So, the Christian or Greek Scriptures: is Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill ( men of well thinking ).
...... and on Earth peace among men of goodwill ( people whom God approves )
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
........... Or do you see nothing but Satan's grasp over all, with every last bit of truth stamped out, such that God will have to wash the world clean like during the flood and start afresh with His Kingdom at the Judgement?

In Genesis we find the ' rainbow promise ' that God would never wash the world clean again as in Noah's Day.
Since the Bible will never be stamped out, and Jesus taught that Scripture is religious truth at John 17:17, then No every bit of truth will Not be stamped out. 'Religious truth' will never be stamped out.
According to Scripture, such as Psalms 92:7, what will be stamped out forever is the wicked destroyed forever.
Who remains is mentioned at Proverbs 2:21-22. Jesus promised humble meek people will inherit the Earth.
The good news message found at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 is about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
A coming ' time of separation' is coming to Earth when Jesus, as judge, will separate people as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40. Only the haughty figurative ' goats ' will be stamped out.
The humble figurative ' sheep ' will be placed at his right hand of favor. Thus, the 'sheep' can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth. This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and bring the healthful benefits of Revelation 22:2 that there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations.
That means even 'enemy death ' will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
God never had more than a single religion. He is not with the other religions. Satan owns those religions( 2 Corinthians 11:12-15) Not all is as appears in this world.

I find because of the words found at Revelation 12:9 that Satan 'is' misleading or deceiving the world.
Kind of like a puppeteer pulling the behind-the-scenes stings.
So, BIG business (greed) , BIG politics (corruption) , and BIG religion (falsehood) shows signs of Satan's influence.
Thankfully, Revelation 12:12 informs us that Satan's influence has a short or limited amount of time.
Jesus was referring to Psalms 37:9-11 when Jesus said that humble meek people will inherit the Earth.
That to me is also why Hebrews 2:14 B lets us know that Jesus will destroy Satan.
Then, Earth will become a beautiful paradisical Earth as was originally purposed by God in the Garden of Eden.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
"If you look for the light, you can often find it. But if you go looking for the dark, it is all you will ever see." Based on my conversations with many JW's on this forum, I'd have to say that you look more to find evil in things than you do to find what is good. This wasn't the way of St. Paul, who praised the pagan Athenians for their religious fervor, even for an unknown god. And even Jesus had some good words for the Pharisees; one of them (Nicodemus) was a close follower of His, and He instructed His disciples to do as the Pharisees said, but not as they did.

Can you find the good and the light of Christ in others? Can you find the seedlings of God's truth in other faith traditions and see how everyone has at least an inkling of the truth? Do you see the created world, its people and the ideas of the people, and see the light and the beauty lurking below the surface, waiting to shine forth? Or do you see nothing but Satan's grasp over all, with every last bit of truth stamped out, such that God will have to wash the world clean like during the flood and start afresh with His Kingdom at the Judgement?



It all comes down to being mislead to partake off the table of demons. God says one CANNOT. 1Corinthians 10:21--Paul wrote these words. Even Jesus warned--no matter what you think you did(Matthew 7:21-23) in his name. if one practice a sin( a worker of iniquity) you will hear those words as judgement.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
It all comes down to being mislead to partake off the table of demons. God says one CANNOT. 1Corinthians 10:21--Paul wrote these words. Even Jesus warned--no matter what you think you did(Matthew 7:21-23) in his name. if one practice a sin( a worker of iniquity) you will hear those words as judgement.
Then it would seem that St. Paul himself partook of the table of demons by praising the Gentiles for their religious fervor. Are you prepared to consign him to hell, too? Or what about when our Lord told people to do as the Pharisees said to do whilst keeping clear of their example? Did both St. Paul and Christ Himself partake of the table of demons?

Moreover, St. Paul says this in chapter 8:
"4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols?

St. Paul says that idols are nothing, and they have no power over anything, except to the extent that men think they do. Are you willing to give idols power over absolutely everything in the world, or do you want to take what is good and reclaim it for God?

And again in chapter 10:
27 If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake; for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.” 29 “Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? 30 But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? 31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

It is a Christian's duty to find Christ in every person and in all bits of truth and goodness that we can find in the world and make Him known through that. We are the light of Christ, and our goal should be to make that light shine, not just in us, but in all mankind and in all the cosmos. Everybody and every belief system has at least some element of that truth. We want to take the truth that they have, clean it off, make it shine, and give them the rest of Christ's light of revelation. But it seems you think that nobody has a single shred of anything of Christ's; Satan's rule over this world and all its people is absolute, and nothing of God remains in it at all. And that is an idea that I would heavily disagree with as being extremely antithetical to the entirety of the Christian message, and to God's estimation that the creation is "very good" and worth saving. If Satan has utterly corrupted everything, then there's nothing left to save, and it should all just be washed away.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Demon's are a figament of the imagination when you only look within.

Open your eyes, There is another side that shines even in the dark :)-
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
No, Christmas is not pagan. Just stop.

The reason we celebrate it on December 25th is because it happens to fall 9 months after the Feast of the Annunciation, which is celebrated on March 25th. Christmas trees have nothing to do with Christian celebrations of Christmas, and don't exist outside of the German- and English-speaking worlds. Giving presents has nothing to do with Christian celebrations of Christmas, and this practice isn't found outside of Western Europe and its former colonial possessions. The word "Yule" has nothing to do with Christmas, and you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that burning a log in a fire is somehow a pagan practice. The myth of Santa Claus is derived from St. Nicholas of Smyrna, a real fourth-century Christian bishop who lived in Smyrna in Asia Minor. Originally, Christmas was celebrated on January 6th as part of the Feast of Theophany (the Baptism of Christ). All of the things that people decry as being "pagan" about Christmas are historically recent introductions to the Feast of the Lord's Nativity that are only found within a select few cultures around the world, and are by no means essential to Christian celebration of Christmas--in fact, we've gotten along just fine without them for the vast majority of history and in most countries around the world.


Moreover, the liturgical practices of Christianity are derived directly from Jewish synagogue worship and daily prayer of the first-century. Our Divine Liturgies, Masses, daily offices, styles of chanting and iconography all come directly out of the Jewish tradition of that era.

Apologetics articles are crummy sources of history.

Dec 25 was used as a birth date for many prior deities because it's the solstice, on Dec 22 the sun sets at it's lowest point in the sky and stays that way for 3 days.
On Dec 25 the sun begins rising higher at it's peak each day.
Solar worship religions considered this the death and resurrection of their sun-god.

Then it was switched to other deities. Christianity adopted the date in the 3rd century as at the time many gods birthday/resurrection day was Dec 25.

So in that sense, they used a pagan date. Although the entire death/resurrection in 3 days is from the solar religions in the first place.

It isn't really a big issue because the whole Jesus story is a pagan story. It's not like they "stole" a pagan thing for Christmas? It's already pagan with a bit of Judaism. Why are Christians so anti-pagan? Even if you believe in Jesus the other savior pagan gods also battled evil beings and died and resurrected to ensure their followers a place in the afterlife. They had virgin births and did miracles and fought evil? Before Jesus did.

D, M. Murdock was a decent bible historian:
When Was the First Christmas? | December 25th | Winter Solstice | Birth of the Sun

December 25th as Christ's birthday makes its way into a "calendar" or chronology created in 354 AD/CE called the Calendar of Filocalus or Philocalian Calendar. In addition to listing the 25th of December as the Natalis Invicti, which means "Birth of the Unconquered (Sun)," the Calendar also names the day as that of natus Christus in Betleem Iudeae: "Birth of Christ in Bethlehem Judea." Hence, we can see that people of the fourth century were clearly aware of the association, if not identification, of Christ with the sun, as they had been in Cyprian's time and earlier, since Jesus is claimed to be the "Sun of Righteousness" in the Old Testament book of Malachi (4:2).

The December 25th birthdate is that of the sun, not a "real person," revealing its unoriginality within Christianity and the true nature of the Christian godman. "Christmas" was not incorporated into Christianity until 354 AD/CE. In reality, there is no evidence, no primary sources which show that "Jesus is the reason for the season."
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Apologetics articles are crummy sources of history.
Yet you don't examine a single one of the article's claims or even attempt to debate it. Calling something "apologetics" doesn't invalidate it. Try again.

Dec 25 was used as a birth date for many prior deities because it's the solstice,
No. Saturnalia was held from the 17th to the 23rd. The 25th is not the solstice. The 25th was probably picked as the date for Sol Invictus because it's after the solstice--AKA, the sun has already begun to rise and shine for longer again.

on Dec 22 the sun sets at it's lowest point in the sky and stays that way for 3 days.
Where in the world are you getting this from? The solstice is only one day, and that day can fall either on the 20th, the 21st, the 22nd or the 23rd, with the 20th and the 23rd being rare (and especially the 23rd). The sun doesn't stay in the same exact position for three days straight.

On Dec 25 the sun begins rising higher at it's peak each day.
No, it starts doing that immediately after the solstice, which again falls anywhere between the 20th and the 23rd. There has never in history been a solstice as late as the 25th. It is astronomically impossible, unless your calendar drifts (but this is why we have leap days, to prevent this from happening.

Then it was switched to other deities. Christianity adopted the date in the 3rd century as at the time many gods birthday/resurrection day was Dec 25.
Evidence of any other deities other than Sol Invictus having their feast days on the 25th? And I don't mean the Romans saying "Oh, [insert god here] is really just the same thing as Sol Invictus, so they're celebrated on December 25th too!" I mean actual records of other solar deities having a feast day on the 25th.

Besides, even if you can name a list of other deities for which this is true, you have yet to demonstrate that Christianity was simply importing solar deity cults into Christianity and subsuming them under Jesus.

So in that sense, they used a pagan date. Although the entire death/resurrection in 3 days is from the solar religions in the first place.
Evidence? Links to the direct source mythologies (and not some quackjob like Zeitgeist)? If you've ever read the Gospels, you will know that Jesus' dying and rising on the third day has nothing to do with solar imagery as it is presented in the Gospel narratives. It has rather to do with references to the Prophet Jonah, Christ being the New Adam, and Christ rising on the eighth or first day of the week.

It isn't really a big issue because the whole Jesus story is a pagan story.
This is about as blatantly false as you saying that the solstice lasts for 3 days. Again, even if you could find comparable imagery and narrative devices between Christ and pagan deities, that in no way implies causation. The argument you're making is like me saying that the Japanese emperor's familial descent from the sun goddess Amaterasu is an Egyptian story just because the Egyptians had roughly the same story for the origin of their Pharaohs as descendants of Ra.

It's not like they "stole" a pagan thing for Christmas? It's already pagan with a bit of Judaism.
Again, check yourself before you wreck yourself. Christianity originated within Judaism, was promulgated by Jews, was codified by Jews, and was founded by a Jew.

Why are Christians so anti-pagan?
I myself don't have anything against paganisms. I find much of the symbology and the ethics absolutely fascinating, and it gives me another perspective through which to look at my own faith. But there are some who seem to think that anything not-Christian is 100% evil and has absolutely no truth and nothing worth redemption about it.

Even if you believe in Jesus the other savior pagan gods also battled evil beings
Alright, you're on track so far...
and died and resurrected to ensure their followers a place in the afterlife.
No they did not. Osiris died because Set was a jerk, and now he's just the lord of the dead, but the dead were still making it to the afterlife just fine before he kicked the bucket. Persephone's wedding to Hades and six months vacation from his realm have nothing to do with her dying, and her descent and ascent to and from Hades is associated with the changing seasons, not with people's place in the afterlife, or with anybody's resurrection from the dead. Likewise Baldr--he died because Loki is the literal worst, and again, everybody in Hel was already there before he died. Baldr's death didn't change the nature of the afterlife for anybody, and it is speculated that he may rise from the dead after Ragnarok to be one of the new generations of gods over the new earth when the cycle of creation and destruction begins again in Norse cosmology. But everybody who died before and during Ragnarok are dead and they're not coming back--again, Baldr is the only one who resurrects. His resurrection doesn't help anybody else to come back from the dead like Christ's does. It's certainly not a victory over death as it is in Christian eschatology.

They had virgin births
You have to define this term reeeeaaally loosely to make this work. Most deities who aren't born of other deities are born out of natural or nonliving things like sea foam (Venus), a rock (Mithras), blood (the Olympians or the Titans, I forget which), or other things like that. Which, sea foam and rocks and blood don't have sex, so I guess that makes them virgins? Again, you have to dilute the term "virgin" to an almost meaningless level to make that argument work.

and did miracles and fought evil? Before Jesus did.
1: Those deities don't even exist in a Christian worldview, so this argument doesn't carry any weight to a Christian.
2: Jesus is the pre-existing and eternal God the Son, whereas almost every major deity in pagan religions was created after (in some cases long after) the creation of the universe. So even if we hold that all mythologies are true and put Jesus against everyone else, Jesus is still older than 95% of the cast, and ties with the rest at worst.

December 25th as Christ's birthday makes its way into a "calendar" or chronology created in 354 AD/CE called the Calendar of Filocalus or Philocalian Calendar. In addition to listing the 25th of December as the Natalis Invicti, which means "Birth of the Unconquered (Sun)," the Calendar also names the day as that of natus Christus in Betleem Iudeae: "Birth of Christ in Bethlehem Judea." Hence, we can see that people of the fourth century were clearly aware of the association, if not identification, of Christ with the sun, as they had been in Cyprian's time and earlier, since Jesus is claimed to be the "Sun of Righteousness" in the Old Testament book of Malachi (4:2).
1: The festival of Sol Invictus didn't even exist until it was created in 274. St. Cyprian had already been dead for several decades in this time.
2: As I said above, originally the feast of Christ's Nativity was celebrated as part of the feast of Theophany on January 6th/December 25th (depending on region), and this was practiced regardless of whether Christians were in the Roman Empire or not.

The December 25th birthdate is that of the sun, not a "real person,"
1: I'm sure many a pagan and animist would like a word with you about this.
2: The sun can be "born" at literally any time in a mythology, it doesn't have to be at the winter solstice (which Dec. 25th isn't, anyway). The important question is when the sun starts to rise again, or "be reborn" if your mythology holds to that idea--it's not a universal.

revealing its unoriginality within Christianity and the true nature of the Christian godman. "Christmas" was not incorporated into Christianity until 354 AD/CE.
This is factually wrong, as I have stated above with sources. Christmas was celebrated before this time. The only question is when it was split off from Theophany.

In reality, there is no evidence, no primary sources which show that "Jesus is the reason for the season."
You mean outside of the fact that we're Christians, Christmas is our holiday, it's not synonymous with the ancient Roman festival of Sol Invictus, and we decide what our holidays mean, and not you or any conspiracy theorists?

EDIT: In case you can't find the other sources I've linked to (because for some reason I can't either):

epiphany <--has a multitude of quotations from Church Fathers who lived from the 3rd to the 5th centuries
Epiphany (holiday) - Wikipedia
Epiphany (holiday) - Wikipedia
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
Yet you don't examine a single one of the article's claims or even attempt to debate it. Calling something "apologetics" doesn't invalidate it. Try again.

When an article is that far off, it's apologetics.

No. Saturnalia was held from the 17th to the 23rd. The 25th is not the solstice. The 25th was probably picked as the date for Sol Invictus because it's after the solstice--AKA, the sun has already begun to rise and shine for longer again.

Dec24 is the end of solstice and the "birth" of the new sun cycle starts on Dec 25.

Also Dec 25 birthday of Horus and Mithras so like aother pagan savior deities this makes sense.

http://truthbeknown.com/december2010.jpg


Where in the world are you getting this from? The solstice is only one day, and that day can fall either on the 20th, the 21st, the 22nd or the 23rd, with the 20th and the 23rd being rare (and especially the 23rd). The sun doesn't stay in the same exact position for three days straight.

A lot of Christians seem to have trouble with this one? The Jesus myth, as well as other savior deities obviously originated from this solar mythology. Which was created because of the winter solstice and the reasons they all share the same birthday.
The word your leaving out when talking about days "falling" is declination. The sun's declination appears to standstill for 3 days.

To answer you question -
"The Sun will “die” at midnight on December 21, but don’t panic, it will “rebirth” on midnight December 24. This occurs at the beginning of Winter every year for the past 4.6 billion years. It is called the Winter Solstice, “sun stood still”, and is considered the shortest day in the year in terms of hours of sunlight. It is a three-day period when the hours of daylight are at its shortest and the hours of night (darkness) are at its longest. Noticeably, the sun progressively sets earlier each evening after June 22 (The Summer Solstice – longest hours of sunlight) and night fall comes the earliest on December 21. Hence daylight savings time put our clock one hour back to make up for the shorter hours of day light."

DECEMBER 22 – 25: THE DEATH AND BIRTH OF THE UNCONQUERED SUN

No, it starts doing that immediately after the solstice, which again falls anywhere between the 20th and the 23rd. There has never in history been a solstice as late as the 25th. It is astronomically impossible, unless your calendar drifts (but this is why we have leap days, to prevent this from happening.

covered this, the rebirth is the 25th

Evidence of any other deities other than Sol Invictus having their feast days on the 25th? And I don't mean the Romans saying "Oh, [insert god here] is really just the same thing as Sol Invictus, so they're celebrated on December 25th too!" I mean actual records of other solar deities having a feast day on the 25th.

We're not talking about feast days?, We're talking birth. Yule, a Celtic thing, Kikella and voyage of Osiris are also on this day.
Probably countless solar deities long forgotten also.

Besides, even if you can name a list of other deities for which this is true, you have yet to demonstrate that Christianity was simply importing solar deity cults into Christianity and subsuming them under Jesus.
Jesus birthday was placed on a solar deity day but the 3 day resurrection also just happens to fit so that type of resurrection was obviously influenced by solar cults.
But the main religious syncretism that happens between Judaism and all of the savior messiah dying/rising cults has to do with all of the other elements. Not birthdays.

Evidence? Links to the direct source mythologies (and not some quackjob like Zeitgeist)? If you've ever read the Gospels, you will know that Jesus' dying and rising on the third day has nothing to do with solar imagery as it is presented in the Gospel narratives. It has rather to do with references to the Prophet Jonah, Christ being the New Adam, and Christ rising on the eighth or first day of the week.

The 3 day thing is directly related to all of the pre-Jesus savior messiah deities known..

This is about as blatantly false as you saying that the solstice lasts for 3 days. Again, even if you could find comparable imagery and narrative devices between Christ and pagan deities, that in no way implies causation. The argument you're making is like me saying that the Japanese emperor's familial descent from the sun goddess Amaterasu is an Egyptian story just because the Egyptians had roughly the same story for the origin of their Pharaohs as descendants of Ra.

But a point comes to historians where it gets a bit obvious that synchretation is happening here. Christians might say "the devil made it look that way", which we have several records of early church apologists saying just that, Justin Myrter and others. In order to account for the blaring similarities.

"The general features most often shared by all these cults are (when we eliminate all their differences and what remains is only what they share in common):

  • They are personal salvation cults (often evolved from prior agricultural cults).
  • They guarantee the individual a good place in the afterlife (a concern not present in most prior forms of religion).
  • They are cults you join membership with (as opposed to just being open communal religions).
  • They enact a fictive kin group (members are now all brothers and sisters).
  • They are joined through baptism (the use of water-contact rituals to effect an initiation).
  • They are maintained through communion (regular sacred meals enacting the presence of the god).
  • They involved secret teachings reserved only to members (and some only to members of certain rank).
  • They used a common vocabulary to identify all these concepts and their role.
  • They are syncretistic (they modify this common package of ideas with concepts distinctive of the adopting culture).
  • They are mono- or henotheistic (they preach a supreme god by whom and to whom all other divinities are created and subordinate).
  • They are individualistic (they relate primarily to salvation of the individual, not the community).
  • And they are cosmopolitan (they intentionally cross social borders of race, culture, nation, wealth, or even gender).
You might start to notice we’ve almost completely described Christianity already. It gets better. These cults all had a common central savior deity, who shared most or all these features (when, once again, we eliminate all their differences and what remains is only what they share in common):

  • They are all “savior gods” (literally so-named and so-called).
  • They are usually the “son” of a supreme God (or occasionally “daughter”).
  • They all undergo a “passion” (a “suffering” or “struggle,” literally the same word in Greek, patheôn).
  • That passion is often, but not always, a death (followed by a resurrection and triumph).
  • By which “passion” (of whatever kind) they obtain victory over death.
  • Which victory they then share with their followers (typically through baptism and communion).
  • They also all have stories about them set in human history on earth.
  • Yet so far as we can tell, none of them ever actually existed."
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
So tis the season to be Pagan.So if your Christian do you celebrate Christmas? My sister is Messianic Christian and she and her family do not celebrate Christmas because of its Pagan origins.

Horace and other Gods were born on December 1st, what is Jesus true birthday? What about Santa and Rudolph do you teach your kids Santa exists and Rudolph and Frosty the snowman Christmas elves?

I love it all. I think of it as a way of having family time together.

Nice post. My wife and I are both Baha’is but we both love Christmas. It has so many beautiful traditions that bring people together in a spirit of love. Some just want to party but a lot do honour Christ on that day and it is moving to me and touches me deeply that a Person Who lived and died over 2,000 years ago can still put love and laughter into millions of families and hearts today.

Love the Christmas carols too. I don’t think we should ever be hostile to the traditions of other faiths as everyone has the right to express their belief. I don’t believe in things like Santa but it’s a beautiful tradition focused on being generous, kind and thinking of others even though it is based on fantasy.

We are only a new Faith with our own holy days and it will likely take centuries for us to have such wonderful celebrations.

Thanks for bringing this up and Merry Christmas to you and your family!
 
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