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What exactly do Baha'is mean by "Independent Investigation of the Truth"?

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
As I said, the writings you reference are not part of the Baha'i writings.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

"If today, someone grasps all of the knowledge on earth but stops at the word ‘yes’ (meaning does not become a Baha’i), the Lord will not pay attention to him (ladī l-Ḥaqq madhkūr na) and he will be considered as the most ignorant amongst the people." (Baha’u’llah, Iqtidarat wa chand lauḥ digar, p. 111)​

The book Iqtidarat wa chand lauḥ digar directly from the Official Baha'i library: http://reference.bahai.org/download/iqt-fa-pdf.zip

But our resident Baha'i apologetic claims it's not part of the Baha'i writings.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
If the available Baha'i writings are so vast, and they are, why do critics need to resort to translations used by known opponents of the Baha'i Faith.

Because Baha'is simply refuse to translate those quotes to English.

FYI, any translation that I quote here I double check it first to make sure the quote really exists and has been translated correctly.
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member

It was such a ridiculous statement it was pointless responding. It least it made the OPs intent clear.

I'm the one lolling at your ridiculous excuse. Let's put it this way:

Unlike Islam, Christianity, Judaism and etc. A lot of the Baha'i scripture is available in the handwriting of the founders. That includes the WILL of Abdu'l-Baha. There is a controversy going on about the WILL and the only way to resolve the controversy is to publicly show it or at least provide a scan to Independently Investigate and verify it. However, since the Baha'i authorities know it's a fake they simply refuse to make it public and have resorted to distributing a typed copy.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

"If today, someone grasps all of the knowledge on earth but stops at the word ‘yes’ (meaning does not become a Baha’i), the Lord will not pay attention to him (ladī l-Ḥaqq madhkūr na) and he will be considered as the most ignorant amongst the people." (Baha’u’llah, Iqtidarat wa chand lauḥ digar, p. 111)​

The book Iqtidarat wa chand lauḥ digar directly from the Official Baha'i library: http://reference.bahai.org/download/iqt-fa-pdf.zip

But our resident Baha'i apologetic claims it's not part of the Baha'i writings.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Is there an official English Translation? If not and it is your translation, it is not official and it is not part of the Baha'i Writings.

The original is. Putting that aside, I am aware of many pasages that would say much the same thing that have already been translated.....thus, whats the issue?

What did Muhammad have to say about unbelivers? My guess is the language would not be very different.

Another thing to consider is that a lot of these tablets are directed to the divines, those that say they guide the people spiritual, but in reality lead them astray. Thus wise words for them to consider. Pride usually prevents them though.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm the one lolling at your ridiculous excuse. Let's put it this way:

Unlike Islam, Christianity, Judaism and etc. A lot of the Baha'i scripture is available in the handwriting of the founders. That includes the WILL of Abdu'l-Baha. There is a controversy going on about the WILL and the only way to resolve the controversy is to publicly show it or at least provide a scan to Independently Investigate and verify it. However, since the Baha'i authorities know it's a fake they simply refuse to make it public and have resorted to distributing a typed copy.

Conspiracy theories are all the rage. :D

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not only that, the quotes I mentioned are simply suppressed by Baha'is and never translated.

Who was the Tablet addressed to?

What were the circumstances that led to the Tablet being revealed?

Two important questions to aid in translation and understanding why it was said. After all it is Allah that revealed this.

Regards Tony
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
Is there an official English Translation? If not and it is your translation, it is not official and it is not part of the Baha'i Writings.

The original is. Putting that aside, I am aware of many pasages that would say much the same thing that have already been translated.....thus, whats the issue?

What did Muhammad have to say about unbelivers? My guess is the language would not be very different.

Another thing to consider is that a lot of these tablets are directed to the divines, those that say they guide the people spiritual, but in reality lead them astray. Thus wise words for them to consider. Pride usually prevents them though.

Regards Tony

Baha'i logic:

1- That quote doesn't exist.
2- If it exists, it's not part of Baha'i writings.
3- If it's part of Baha'i writings it doesn't have an official translation.
4- If it has an official translation, you are taking it out of context.
5- If it hasn't been taken out of context it's a metaphor.
6- If it's not a metaphor you have an axe to grind.
7- If you don't have an axe to grind you still refuse to see the light.
8- If you are seeing the light then you're beliefs are no better than ours.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Baha'i logic:

1- That quote doesn't exist.
2- If it exists, it's not part of Baha'i writings.
3- If it's part of Baha'i writings it doesn't have an official translation.
4- If it has an official translation, you are taking it out of context.
5- If it hasn't been taken out of context it's a metaphor.
6- If it's not a metaphor you have an axe to grind.
7- If you don't have an axe to grind you still refuse to see the light.
8- If you are seeing the light then you're beliefs are no better than ours.

The Logic is that no English translation can be said to be what Baha'u'llah revealed, until it has been released with an official translation. It may be yours will be accurate, but we can not know at this time.

There are many questions that are yet to be answered as to why this Tablet was revealed and what were the circumstances.

I think this is about done, as to argue the point is fruitless. Regards Tony
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
Conspiracy theories are all the rage. :D

Regards Tony

We only need a scan of Abdu'l-Baha's will nothing more nothing less. And we all know the UHJ has it. We're not asking for much. That is the only and easiest way to solve this problem. Laugh all you want because you're responses are no longer coherent.


There are many strong worded tablets, would you like to see some really good ones?

Or you can quote them from the official tranalations, as they are available.

Regards Tony

Yeah but we aren't speaking about those tablets.

Who was the Tablet addressed to?

What were the circumstances that led to the Tablet being revealed?

Two important questions to aid in translation and understanding why it was said. After all it is Allah that revealed this.

Regards Tony

Next time, try harder to divert the discussion.
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
The Logic is that no English translation can be said to be what Baha'u'llah revealed, until it has been released with an official translation. It may be yours will be accurate, but we can not know at this time.

There are many questions that are yet to be answered as to why this Tablet was revealed and what were the circumstances.

I think this is about done, as to argue the point is fruitless. Regards Tony

Good luck with the blind imitation of the UHJ.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Next time, try harder to divert the discussion

What are you trying to point out with the quote?

Would it be akin to this?

"When the sacred months have passed, then kill the Mushrikin wherever you find them. Capture them. Besiege them. Lie in wait for them in each and every ambush but if they repent, and perform the prayers, and give zacat then leave their way free.”9:5

Regards Tony
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
People can always find something to "try to" refute the Baha'i Faith, if they look hard enough, but it won't change anything, except in their deluded minds. They can keep talking till the cows come home, but REALITY is REALITY, and that cannot be changed, unless humans become Omnipotent. :rolleyes:

Nothing has ever been as obviously the Truth from God as the Baha'i Faith, not throughout all of history. It only shows how blind people are when they cannot see it.

“So blind hath become the human heart that neither the disruption of the city, nor the reduction of the mountain in dust, nor even the cleaving of the earth, can shake off its torpor. The allusions made in the Scriptures have been unfolded, and the signs recorded therein have been revealed, and the prophetic cry is continually being raised. And yet all, except such as God was pleased to guide, are bewildered in the drunkenness of their heedlessness!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 39

Then we have this, which fully explains why people cast aspersions at the Baha'i Faith:

“Those who would have men believe that religion is their own private property once more bring their efforts to bear against the Sun of Truth: they resist the Command of God; they invent calumnies, not having arguments against it, neither proofs. They attack with masked faces, not daring to come forth into the light of day.

Our methods are different, we do not attack, neither calumniate; we do not wish to dispute with them; we bring forth proofs and arguments; we invite them to confute our statements. They cannot answer us, but instead, they write all they can think of against the Divine Messenger, Bahá’u’lláh.” Paris Talks, p. 103

But calumnies won't accomplish anything they seek to accomplish, they never have:

“And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!

But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.” Paris Talks, p. 106

One needs a lot of ego, arrogance, and pride to write something like that.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Not only that, the quotes I mentioned are simply suppressed by Baha'is and never translated.

Is that why some of the more notable Bahai translators such a Juan Cole were estranged?

Actually I don't need to bother with the hidden writings, because the ones that I can read, if stripped of their rhetoric and flowery prose, show a very suspect nature indeed.

I take notice now when writings from Bahauallah, AbdulBaha, Shogi Effendi or UHJs are shown because if scrutinised closely they reveal so much double-think as to settle it all for me. I have said before, that not one paragraph is free from some kind of deception. So far I reckon that I am right.
 
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