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Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

Sen McGlinn

Sen McGlinn

Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
It is not an easy thing to translate the Writings of Baha'u'llah and direct literal translations can be very misleading. @Sen McGlinn is able to explain why this is so.
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This is like riding a bicycle: hard to describe. Bilingual people don't need an explanation, and monolingual people just have to take it as fact, that translation is an art. I am happy to look at a particular text and its translations, but there's nothing useful I can say about generalisations.
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sen McGlinn said:
This is like riding a bicycle: hard to describe. Bilingual people don't need an explanation, and monolingual people just have to take it as fact, that translation is an art. I am happy to look at a particular text and its translations, but there's nothing useful I can say about generalisations.
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Thank you Sen, what you have said is good.

Hope you are well.

Regards Tony
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Vinayaka said:
No kidding, on the big 'if'.
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How do we know if any prophet really said and did the things claimed in the Bible. Were the stories written by the prophet? Were they written by someone after the prophet had died? Baha'is don't even believe a lot of the things written about what Jesus did are for real. Yet, they love to quote anything that sounds like it can relate somehow to Baha'u'llah as a prophecy. So the stories might be fiction, but the "prophecies" are true?

But, one thing we know for sure is that Baha'is say all "major" religions came from one source, God. Even though, they are all different and they all teach different things about God. So the biggest "if" for me is that if the Baha'is are correct, then all the other religions got off track. And, that includes the Scriptures of each religion. That means that the writings of each religion can be and probably have been changed over time. The interpretations of their own writings is not accurate, even with things that seem clearly stated. Why? Because they were meant to be a "metaphor". Also, the leadership in all the other religions has gotten corrupted. Evil leaders have taken the religion away from the truth and have used the religion to make themselves rich and powerful.

So nothing in all the other religions can be trusted. And you well know what that means... There is only one religion we can trust. There is only one religion that is right and is the true religion from God, the Baha'i Faith. That is, if, what they say about everything is true. They have to be 100% right. Their leadership has to be 100% truthful and honest... like if they make up numbers about how many members they have and or exaggerate those numbers, then maybe there's something wrong. Do they really think the numbers are accurate? If they know those numbers are probably inflated, why would they post them? What could be the motive? Other than to look bigger than they really are. Are they embarrassed as to why more people haven't joined the Faith? I don't know, but that ain't a good sign to have their leadership be doing things like that?

Thanks for not letting them off the hook about it.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
siti said:
Is there a third option?
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That reminds me of the "Trilemma" that Christians use. Jesus is either a lunatic, a liar, or he is the Lord. I think Bart Erhman added, or he was a legend. But, definitely considering how many religious leaders, with all sorts of weird claims, have gained a decent following, a religion can have some success no matter how off the wall they maybe. So how off the wall is a religion that grew out of a sect of Islam? And claims to be the fulfillment of every major religion? I don't know.

But, if it's only partially successful at getting people to believe in it, it doesn't matter how true it was. It will only be true to its own followers and will always be false to people in other religions. And will end up to be just another religion added into the mix of the religions of the world. And which one of the religions thinks it is a "false" religion?

So, third option... half true? True for some? True for those with eyes to see and false to those that are spiritually blind? A religion that you can trust to be 100% true, if you interpret everything the way they tell you?
 
Vinayaka

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
CG Didymus said:
They have to be 100% right. Their leadership has to be 100% truthful and honest... like if they make up numbers about how many members they have and or exaggerate those numbers, then maybe there's something wrong. Do they really think the numbers are accurate? If they know those numbers are probably inflated, why would they post them? What could be the motive? Other than to look bigger than they really are. Are they embarrassed as to why more people haven't joined the Faith? I don't know, but that ain't a good sign to have their leadership be doing things like that?

Thanks for not letting them off the hook about it.
Click to expand...

Who should a person trust, the census takers of well established democracies, or a small group of leaders of a fringe faith? Methinks the answer is obvious. India was the one that really got me... 15 000 versus 2 million. It's just absurd.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
It was never a sect of Islam.

Regards Tony
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Weren't the Bab and Baha'u'llah part of Shia Islam? And, isn't Shia a sect of Islam? So is it going too far to say that the Baha'i Faith came from or out of Shia Islam? I know Baha'is think of themselves as an independent world religion, but which religion does the Baha'i Faith have the most in common with?
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Vinayaka said:
Who should a person trust, the census takers of well established democracies, or a small group of leaders of a fringe faith? Methinks the answer is obvious. India was the one that really got me... 15 000 versus 2 million. It's just absurd.
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Can I trust those numbers, or do I have to independently investigate this for myself?

But, which numbers do Baha'is trust? Do some Baha'i take the time to verify those numbers, or do they assume their leaders are telling them the truth? Those that have checked it out, what do they think? In fact, don't we have some Baha'is here that do know that the numbers are exaggerated? What do they say? What reasons do they give why headquarters lets those wrong numbers of how many members there are be printed?
 
Vinayaka

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
CG Didymus said:
Can I trust those numbers, or do I have to independently investigate this for myself?

But, which numbers do Baha'is trust? Do some Baha'i take the time to verify those numbers, or do they assume their leaders are telling them the truth? Those that have checked it out, what do they think? In fact, don't we have some Baha'is here that do know that the numbers are exaggerated? What do they say? What reasons do they give why headquarters lets those wrong numbers of how many members there are be printed?
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Bahai's trust the numbers put out by Baha'i sources, mainly the UHJ. It's infallible after all. I doubt that the total world population even hits a million. It's also a really aging demographic. I don't think many have actually checked things out. Why bother, when you can just blindly trust the UHJ? Mauritius was another personal example, besides western Canada where I live. The claim by Baha'is is about 23 000 Mauritians. I can honestly say I never saw one single sign of Baha'i when I was there. Just nada. If I can find the link to the comparison chart of census versus Bahai claims, I'll link it. There is a wiki section on 'criticisms of the Bahai faith as well. It's important to note that most criticisms don't come from anti-Bahai, but just ordinary folk like you and me observing discrepancies. I'm officially neutral, but I've never liked deception of any kind, coming from anyone.

I think many do know, it's so obvious, but saying anything at all just invites argument and criticism.

Criticism of the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia
 
Sen McGlinn

Sen McGlinn

Member
Vinayaka said:
Who should a person trust, the census takers of well established democracies, or a small group of leaders of a fringe faith? Methinks the answer is obvious. India was the one that really got me... 15 000 versus 2 million. It's just absurd.
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I know that 15,000 can't be right, just by the number of readers on my Bahai blogs from India. Given that English is not universal in India, and neither is internet connectivity, the visitor numbers that I get suggest a community of 100,000 or more.
 
Sen McGlinn

Sen McGlinn

Member
Vinayaka said:
Mauritius was another personal example, besides western Canada where I live. The claim by Baha'is is about 23 000 Mauritians. I can honestly say I never saw one single sign of Baha'i when I was there.
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But they are there on internet sources. The Council of Religions of Mauritius says there are 7000 Bahais, and chose the Bahai council member as its assistant secretary
Les différentes religions présentes à Maurice
.. which suggests that while a visitor might not notice the Bahais, the locals know how to find a Bahai when they need one. And if the Council thought there were only a handful, they wouldn't bother finding one !
 
Sen McGlinn

Sen McGlinn

Member
CG Didymus said:
Can I trust those numbers, or do I have to independently investigate this for myself?

But, which numbers do Baha'is trust? Do some Baha'i take the time to verify those numbers, or do they assume their leaders are telling them the truth? Those that have checked it out, what do they think? In fact, don't we have some Baha'is here that do know that the numbers are exaggerated? What do they say? What reasons do they give why headquarters lets those wrong numbers of how many members there are be printed?
Click to expand...

Religious adherence stats are notoriously difficult, but the Bahai ones are relatively reliable by comparison, for countries with a Bahai administration to keep records. This is because the membership count in an area determines the number of area delegates to national convention, so there's a motivation for periodically culling the membership rolls of the local area. The frequency varies, but anecdotally I would say - in countries where there is a Bahai administration - the claimed numbers in each area are reviewed by the national assembly about every 15 or 20 years. Local communities are not particularly inclined to inflate numbers, because while it might give them an extra delegate it will also raise expectations of what that community can contribute. What causes inflation is a strong disinclination to say that someone "is not a Bahai." It's such an un-Bahai thing to say! The result is that people who are no longer participating remain on the rolls until there's a review, in my experience always initiated by the NSA.
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
siti said:
Is there a third option?
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Interesting point.
And even one of the 'True or False' options may be wrong.

I can understand the concept of a True Prophet, but I can't understand what a 'False Prophet' might be, because their claims would not be real prophecy.

Could I be a false prophet if I had previously declared that chocolate coated candies would rain down upon Texas last night? I'm guessing that they might not have. I think I would just be sectioned as a nutter.... and Mrs Badger will not see this or she might have something more to say....:D
 
Vinayaka

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Sen McGlinn said:
I know that 15,000 can't be right, just by the number of readers on my Bahai blogs from India. Given that English is not universal in India, and neither is internet connectivity, the visitor numbers that I get suggest a community of 100,000 or more.
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100 000 doesn't seem all that unreasonable. But it's not the 2 million that's tossed about either. It's 5% of that. India is just oe example, as well. But this is all repetitive stuff. I'm going to bow out again. The research is out there for anyone interested.
 
Vinayaka

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Sen McGlinn said:
But they are there on internet sources. The Council of Religions of Mauritius says there are 7000 Bahais, and chose the Bahai council member as its assistant secretary
Les différentes religions présentes à Maurice
.. which suggests that while a visitor might not notice the Bahais, the locals know how to find a Bahai when they need one. And if the Council thought there were only a handful, they wouldn't bother finding one !
Click to expand...
7000 isn't 23 000, the Bahai source number, which was my point. Just how many of those 7000 are active is another point. As I understand it, inactive folks aren't removed from the count.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
InvestigateTruth said:
In Bahai Faith, anyone can mistake. Only, the Bab, Bahaullah, Abdulbaha, Shoghi Effendi, and the universal house of justice are infallible. So, even if, just if, some Bahais exaggerated as you believe, it does not disprove the claim of divinity.
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Sounds like you are saying they are god. Trinity-like.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Vinayaka said:
The NSA letter is so indicative of so many things wrong with Baha'i. It's very congratulatory about the many small things the various communities have been up to. I thought the building of a bench was particularly indicative of this false positivity that runs through much of Bahai'speak. I mean, it's all nice and all that, but it's certainly not very realistic. It's reminiscent of those 'positive parenting' parents I used to run into when I taught. Ne'er a realistic word, just positivity through and through. It gives the kid a sense he can do absolutely no wrong. I know one such poor child that is now stuck in jail for assault and battery, his parents couldn't bail him out of that. But having read quite a bit now, here and elsewhere, it;s easy to see exaggeration, and false bragging when it's there.

Of course then it goes on with the lament about how most of the people who attended these events were guests, and not actually Baha'i, and again with the encouragement to convert convert convert, as if converting is somehow magically going to make you a better person. It's a problem for many ex-Baha'i, the fact that there is little action outside of finding new converts. What about some real charity, some counseling, sone rejoice at celebrating with others without the addendum for conversion. But it's all about the next big 8 year plan, following all the ___ year plans that have come before, failing miserably,yet again awaiting patiently the onset of thousands into this big deal.

The real deal about Cut Knife certainly wouldn't be Cut knife itself, but the several surrounding First Nations communities in the area, and the fact that Baha'i (and other missionary religions preceding them) have had some success converting on the First Nations, if only because the First nations peoples are a troubled lot, and may be looking for anything with any semblance of hope. But it won't last. They're slowly finding their roots, thank goodness. Perhaps the Baha'i sould do something more charitable like have a major food bank drive and give it to the impoversished areas of North Battleford. I won't be holding my breath on that one.
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Bahai reminds me of SGI (modern buddhist sect) in its lay out, themes, and even the "sun and many rays" view with their own theme-phrase. They do have food banks and charity (as so said by adrian) and things like that. It reminds me what you said years ago about different passive and direct ways of conversation. This is a harsh site on Bahai criticisms but not meant to belittle it. Why the Baha’i Faith Can’t Keep its Converts? Ive been to two-convert like religious before. I guess to each his own.
 
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