Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
I did a little search in the Bible and found John 10.30 where it say " I and the Father are One"
Maybe that give a clue to the OP ?
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So Jesus is not God?
- Thread starter Oeste
- Start date
I did a little search in the Bible and found John 10.30 where it say " I and the Father are One"
Maybe that give a clue to the OP ?
Oeste
Well-Known Member
InChrist, as always a pleasure to hear from you!
I find it revealing that those who consider scripture authoritative notice the problem with the premise "Jesus is not God" and Romans 5:8 immediately, whilst others who do not consider scripture authoritative tend to wonder what all the fuss is about.
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Oeste
Well-Known Member
Thank you for answering the question UA!
I totally agree with your answer here. The person who actually dies for you is showing MORE love than the person that sent him.For example, it is the one who dies taking the hill that gets the medal, and not the one who ordered him to take the hill. And it is the person who drowns saving you as you flail in the water that receives honor, and not the person sitting on the shore watching who agreed that you needed to be saved.
It doesn't matter how "tight" you were with the person who did the actual saving. It doesn't matter how close you were, whether you "thought alike", "acted alike" or whatever. The person doing the saving show more love than the person watching. We agree on this.
This poses a HUGE quandary for those who believe Jesus is not God.
But to understand the exact nature of this "quandary" I need you to do something I asked my fellow Christians to do earlier, and that is to posit a premise you may not believe in. For you, I need you to posit that scripture is authoritative and the Word of God.
If you can do that you will see the quandary. If you believe that Jesus is not God simply because the bible is a fabricated collection of stories you will not fully see or understand the issue.
So keeping this in mind we can look at scripture.
As @74x12 pointed out earlier, God is the source of love:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.. (1 John 4:8)
And we also know how the ultimate in greater love is shown:
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. (John 15:13)
And to drive the point I am about to make a little further, we know a servant is not greater than his master:
Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' (John 15:20)
Now, with this in mind...that scripture is authoritative...we come back to our premise that Jesus is not God and Romans 5:8
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
It is Christ who died, but it is God that shows the love. How? By having His son die! So it is the Son who shows greater love for mankind than God, because there is no greater love than dying for your friends!!
How is that possible when you accept as authoritative that God is the source of love, the servant is not greater than the master and "Jesus is not God"? How does Jesus show greater love than the source of love itself?
This "quandary" is easily answered if Jesus is God, but..for the sake of argument...that premise is off the table. So I am asking my fellow Christians, especially those who believe "Jesus is not God", how we balance our equation.
Unfortunately there has been little in the way of answers so far. Instead, they point to other equations they've formulated, hoping to distract from this one.
I don't mind applying the same microscope we're using here, but I'd like to get this one "off the table" and taken care of first.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I'ma come back to this promise. The difference is I don't believe jesus as god. I see so many things against it beyond the repeated quotes. A lot of it is context and others just using propositions.
If jesus died for me, then yes, I would thank him as a person. I see no difference in him being god or human sent by god. Give thanks where thanks is due.
But, I find it more genuine if jesus did it without being sent by his father. When you give charity, there are no strings attached. The obligation comes from inside not what you were told or who gave you a mission.
I see no difference if jesus were god or not. If god can do anything, why does it matter?
God saves you regardless if he sent a human son or himself incarnate. To be honest, that sounds like knot picking god.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
What the koran says is irrelevant to a discussion of Christian theology, in this context it means nothing
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Sincerity cannot replace truth, and truth comes by the word of God. So then, the truth of this issue is found in the Bible.
Jesus IS God, in that he is part of the triune Godhead. He IS NOT God in the sense of the interchangability of the 3 members of the Godhead
Or as John 3:16 puts it,
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [KJV]
Jesus says repeatedly, in all four gospels though most clearly in John, that he is NOT God, that he's God's envoy, that he can know and do only what God empowers him to know and do, and that the Father is the god he himself worships. Nor does he ever, even once, state that he's God. (If you'd like NT citations for that, just ask.)
First, the idea is that God gave up something extremely precious for the good of humanity. Second, in the story Jesus didn't die; he continued to exist in all meaningful respects after being declared dead and placed in the tomb. So however precious he was to God, God got him back in working condition anyway.
A further point is that Jesus' mission was always intended to end in his death eg Mark 2:20, Mark 14:27, 14:35-6, Matthew 26:39. Luke 22:42 &c. In other words, Jesus was a willing participant.
Jesus took either that view, or the view that he had no choice but to agree. One way or another, in all the stories he agrees.
Of course, none of that matters if one doesn't take the gospels as authoritative. In that case one can make up one's own rules.
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wandering peacefully
Which way to the woods?
If Jesus is God, than God killed himself. If God killed himself who was running the show for the almost 3 days God was dead? And how did God come back to life if he was dead?
If Jesus wasn't God, God killed an innocent man for almost 3 days. But that's okay because he brought the innocent man back to life to live in the best place ever. God said he did it all for us?
Nothing in either of those options sounds very loving or relevant for that matter. It sounds like God got bored and felt like entertaining himself for a few days really. Not saying any of this is not true but it sounds like a big story if one heard it for the first time. Not the loving kind of story either.
Riders
Well-Known Member
ANy references to him being God were written between 70 and 300 years after Jesus lived by deciples who writing fan fiction trying to lead readers to believe hyped up legends which were being written by Pagans of their Pagan Gods at the time to get converts to Christianity. If Jesus were God Jews would be converts to Jesus.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Jesus had to be sent by the Father, or else He could not speak with authority. The authority had to come from the Father.
Let's use Blϋ's example of an envoy.
If an envoy from another country sends himself , he is essentially on vacation. But if they are sent by the King, he can speak with the King's voice and communicate in an official capacity with that foreign country.
This would take a while and get us off thread, but in a nutshell:
The idea of a kinsman redeemer is established in the Pentateuch. Very basically, it means a male relative has the responsibility to act for a relative in need (Leviticus 25: 47-55). So if someone went into debt to another, that person could go into bondage in order to pay for his debt.
All mankind was in bondage to sin, so we needed someone to redeem us from the Law (one sins when one violates the Law...and everyone violated the law). If Jesus is just a man he can only redeem himself, if he were born into sin, or another man, if he were not. It's an eye for an eye, and not an eye for 10 million eyes.
So when Jesus sacrificed himself for mankind, his life had to be worth the value of mankind's sin or greater. If Jesus was "just a man", his sacrifice would never have made the grade.
The book of Ruth is a great example of this in action, but again we would be off-topic.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Try Isaiah 9:6 which calls Jesus Mighty God and everlasting Father.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
I can read pretty fast and this may be my fault, but I think I missed the "I am not God but an envoy" quote from Jesus. Are you confusing "Why do you call me good" with "Don't call me good"?
So there is no John 1:1, and the Word wasn't God?
Look, I can posit that Jesus is not God for the sake of argument, but I can only take things so far.
That places your assertion into quandary.
1. Is it the person that actually dies for you, or the person who says "The person that is dying for you...they are extremely precious to me!" that shows the greater love?
2. Who actually died? Was it Jesus or the person who sent him?
3. How can Jesus show greater love than God who sent him when God is the source of love?
I think you missed the part where Jesus was crucified, gave up his spirit, and was buried in a tomb. He died blü.
As far as "continuing to exist", Jesus was no different than the rest of us. We all continue to exist after we die. The difference with Jesus was that he was able to raise his own body up 3 days later, something scripture tells us no man has ever been able to do.
Absolutely! It's good to know we don't always disagree.
Agreed!
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Spirit works from within. Not an envoy at all. Working from within doesn't mean ego. Some religions who don't have prophets still follow god but not as an external being but within. No other authority can give them mission to work for god. That comes from within.
If god could do anything, he wouldn't be just a man. He wouldn't need to be god. If this human was from god, why would he (and prophets) be just a man when their mission and relationship with their god seperates them from other humans?
Well, in the order we meet them in history, first Paul:
1 Corinthians 8:
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.
or Philippians 2
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Then in Mark we have:
29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [...] 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;
And Matthew:
20:23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
and
24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
And Luke:
18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
And John:
1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”
5:30* “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”
6:38* “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”
8:42* “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”
10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.
14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
14:10* “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”
14:28 [...] I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
And also:
1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
(The ones with the * directly address the 'envoy' point.)
You can ignore Paul if you like, but why are Jesus' plain words not enough for you?
There's a John 1.1 in my copy, but it doesn't say Jesus is God and it doesn't purport to be a statement by Jesus ─ whereas the statements attributed to Jesus in direct speech say repeatedly that Jesus is not God.
The quandary isn't mine. It's in the text.
No one died. Jesus was not only still alive when it was all over, but in his glory.
Where does it say that Jesus has greater love than God has?
Or perhaps, 'gave up his breath'. But the point is that he wasn't dead in the way you and I will one day be dead. He was back on earth, with his personality intact and some powers added.
Where does it say that Jesus raised himself? If you look at the words of Jesus I set out above, you'll notice he says he has no other powers than those the Father allows him.
By the way, it wasn't clear to me whether your reply meant you do regard the NT as authoritative or you don't. Which is it?
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Oeste
Well-Known Member
In order to understand the point of Christians you would have to hold a biblical perspective.
Prophets of the Christian faith are sent by God. They are envoys of the Most High.
Quite probable, but the Christian faith has an external God who holds sway over all creation. As Christians we have an indwelling of Spirit. This spirit is within but not from within. It is from God.
If God could do anything, why not?
Then I'm not seeing how He could do anything.
Remember, this is biblical debates, and you start with what would certainly be a rebuttable presumption. The New Testament leaves absolutely no doubt Jesus was from God. I'm aware of many Christians religions who claim Jesus is not God, more who claim he is, none that claim he is not from God, and certainly none from a minor deity as your "god" with a small "g" suggests.
Separation started in the book of Genesis with our spiritual separation away from God. Once we separated from God we took little time separating ourselves., a process that goes on to our present day.You may disagree with this notion, but it would not be biblical.
Separation is a major theme of religion…those who follow God from those who don’t.Some separations are artificial, like those of "race" but the willingness and ability to separate is also part, parcel, and sometimes essential to our human nature: good from bad, whites from colors, Allies from Axis, dogs from cats, Left from Right, Hot from Cold, Friend from Foe, Order from Confusion, Catholics from Protestants, Safe from Dangerous, Christians from Muslims, Boys from Girls, sweet from sour…you name it, we as humans will separate it, sometimes to our betterment but oft times to our detriment.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
I'm sure they all walked on water too.
Blü made an important valid statement previously which I agree with, and which Riders brings to full bloom.
In other words, Christianity will be anything you want it to be, Jesus will be just another guy on the block, the God of scripture will be shaped to your own image and liking, the prophets will amazingly say exactly what you thought they should have said all along and we will get absolutely nowhere in our discussion of Romans 5:8.
For the purpose of discussion, let's assume scripture to be authoritative and we'er going to use this authority to determine if Jesus is God. If we don't assume biblical authority, then the question of whether Jesus is God is irrelevant as Jesus could likewise be duck, dog, or a cat.
So you wish to avoid stating clearly whether you in fact regard them as authoritative or not ─ curious.
But since we're assuming here that it is, my previous post set out Jesus' repeated denials that he's God, and you've offered a reply (John 1.1) which first has no clear meaning and second isn't attributed to Jesus.
I take it you're familiar with the history of early Christianity and the invention of the Trinity in the 4th century in order to promote Jesus to God status while trying to dodge the accusations of pagan-like polytheism. And I take it you're well aware that the RCC and Anglo/Piscos (and I dare say other Trinitarian churches) openly acknowledge that the Trinity doctrine is incoherent ─ I quote the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (under the entry 'Trinity'):
This doctrine is held to be a mystery in the strict sense, in that it can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed.
That is, it's incoherent, a nonsense. (The net's Catholic Encyclopedia says the same thing, but not so clearly, under 'Trinity' and 'mystery stricto sensu'.)
The problem is a simple one. The three persons, Father, Son and Ghost, are distinct entities; yet simultaneously each of them is 100% of God. Now, three people can each be one third of God; but three people each of whom is 100% of God add up to 300%, which is to say, three gods.
And even were we to suspend disbelief for a moment, we'd still have a number of problems, such as that God is Jesus' father, Jesus is 100% of God, so Jesus is his own father. At the same time, the Ghost is Jesus' father, being 100% of God too; and even the Father is Jesus' father, since he's the third 100% of God in the picture. Why anyone would then call one of the three the Father, when all three are, is a mystery in the strict sense too, which is to say, a nonsense.
And again, if we take the Trinity doctrine as correct, Jesus (Mark 15:34, Matthew 27:46) on the cross cries out, 'Me, me, why have I forsaken me?'. That strikes me as an odd thing to say. What do you make of it?
Of course, that's only a sample, but it'll serve.
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Oeste
Well-Known Member
I've answered your questions Blü, but I want go through them a few at a time.
1. How many “Lords” does a Christian have? One or two?
2. How many "Lords" does a Jew have? Wasn't Yahweh the First and the Last? (Isaiah 44:6); (Revelation 1:8)
Christians have ONE Lord, just as the 1 Corinthinan 8:6 tells us, just as you quoted above. But scriptural verses don’t stand and live alone in a vacuum, do they? We also have an Old Testament along with the New.
And who does the Old Testament tell us is Lord?
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.( Isaiah 43:11)
One Lord, One God, One Savior. Not different Lords, different Gods, nor different Saviors.
ONE…and He is the same Lord of the Jew as He is the Christian.Yahweh is the first and the last.
But now I have some questions for you:
1. If the ONE Lord of Christians is Jesus, how is Yahweh Lord?
2. If the ONE Lord of the Jews is Yahweh, how is Jesus Lord?
3. Perhaps it's because Jesus and God are "one". If so, after reading Isaiah 43:11, please explain how the Jews (every tongue) are to declare Yahweh "Lord" through Jesus, why that does or doesn't make Jesus an idol to both Christian and Jew, and why Yaweh, after declaring there is no Lord but Him, would be happy with it.
I could be wrong, but from my perspective the questions you ask, as well as the ones I've ask, are extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God, but extremely difficult if he is not.
Others are free to join in and share there biblical perspectives. We'll go through all the questions, but we'll do it the hard way...by exploring some nooks and crannies.
And no, your opinion does not have to agree or be lock step with mine. I prefer an open and reasonable discussion within the constraints of scriptural and a sound basis for your opinion. We all see through a glass darkly, and I don't claim to have all the answers.
However, I have no doubt that by the end of our discussion, the idea that "Jesus is God" will harmonize scripture, whereas the idea "Jesus is not God" will wreck it, and we'll have mostly the skeptics, atheists and of course scripture to thank.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
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Shrugs. I believe the envoy would come from within. God would always be a mystery; but, when we know from within, we grow in our spirituality rather than seek it in prayer.
Is there a logical argument (statement of opposition) that coming from within is not as true as it being external?
Debates have been regurgitated so much I forget to look.
From god makes more sense to me than as god. Though, I see both positions logical.
Shrugs.
Seeing the world in separation from god doesnt make sense to me. Probably because I would think god comes from within. Knowing god is not separate takes a lot of patience and self growth. Thats probably why there are so many opinions. They look outside themselves for answers.
Just my opinion.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
That was addressed to someone (UA) who does not consider scripture authoritative. She cannot see or understand any scriptural point, especially the one in Romans 5:8 until she does. She needs to see Scripture authoritative to view the world through Christian eyes in the same manner a Trinitarian would need to see Jesus as not God through the eyes of a Oneness Pentecostal. We are simply donning another's shoes to get a different perspective. That does not mean you adopt that perspective, but it does assist us from assigning perspectives that person may not have.
As for authoritative, we are speaking about the bible, so of course scripture is authoritative. As for the rest of your post, any attempt to describe the infinite will seem like a mystery to us. We have no idea where space and all matter come from, no idea what our universe is expanding into, and we cannot grasp the full glory of God.
Quite simply, if we didn't have a God who is mysterious, we wouldn't be describing God. We would be describing "a god", one in our own image. It is only those gods that we as humans fully understand. You know, Zeus, Odin, Jupiter, Ra, Baal and others. But from the Christian perspective, it would be easier to explain your tax return to an amoeba than to fully describe the Triune God.
As to your math, we can always have lots of fun with that. But for now I'd like to concentrate on thread theme and perhaps get a response from you and others of my last post.
Don't fret. We have plenty of time.