So Jesus is not God?

Oeste · Dec 5, 2018

74x12 said:
It's a good point and notice how Jesus defines the greatest love.

John 15:13
greater love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends;

So according to Jesus the greatest love is to die for your friends. Yet, we all know that God must have the greatest love of all. (1 John 4:8) So then when did God die for His friends?

You understood the problem immediately (and you're not Trinitarian).

Well done!

shunyadragon · Dec 5, 2018

Oeste said:
Religion helps answer age old questions, like where did we come from? Why and how am I here? Is this all there is or is there more? What happens when I die? What happens when she or he dies? Why do we die? Does it really matter what I do, how I do it or whom I do it too? etc.

Only for those that believe it does.

Not at all. Both views are evident. That my view is correct, or my view is incorrect. For purposes of this thread, we are assuming my view is incorrect. But simply stating Jesus is not God is insufficient. We must now show why it is correct. That's what we're attempting to do here.

It is only a matter of belief that your view of scripture is correct. Many alternate beliefs that differ also rely largely on faith and belief. The materialists such as atheists simply rely on the fact of the lack of objective evidence to support your assertions of belief.

Guilty! I hold to what Christians commonly refer to as the Old and New Testaments, and no new scripture has been written in the last 2000 years.

This is an assertion of belief. The Jews, of course, believe there is not new scripture in more than 2000 years.

There are thousands of extant manuscripts which attest to the validity of scripture, but this is off thread theme. For now, I'd like to focus on Romans 5:8 and how we reconcile this with other verses under the premise "Jesus is not God".

Sorry to disappoint you, but no there are not. There have been threads without number here on this site trying to demonstrate this and despite the redundancy I would welcome another vain effort.[/quote]

Oeste · Dec 5, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
This says god sent his son not himself. John 3:16 (jn3:16)

By sending is son not himself. Jn 4:14

By sending his son jn 4:14

Yes. I wouldnt be the person who told me to die for the prisoners. I am just doing my "father's" will. Jn 6:38

But that's what jesus did. The son died for believers not his father jn 3:16: whoever believes

Cause christ represents god. 1 Timothy 2:5

Think of an interpreter. You have the source, the interpreter, and the target/person the person spoken to. The ethics of an into. is that he cannot change nor comment on the sources message to the target. He must relay in full meaning what his source says so his target would understand.

The intp. acts as the source because whatever the target says to the intp. it's the source the target gets his message from not the intermediary or mediator. That doesn't invalidate the inportance of the intp. he is differently needed to convey the message. But he is not the source nor the target. He is an intermediary between the two.1 John 4:3

God is the source gen 1:1
Jesus the interpreter Hebrews 12:24
Target are believers Romans 10:9-10 to believers

Its very easy to understand. I think. Luke 24:45

The love of God is IN jesus not jesus himself Romans 8:38-39

I guess god will help you understand who his son is in relationship to himself, the father Psalm 119:73

See post #16 by 24x7.

Jesus was sent by the Father. The Father did not come personally, he asked someone else to come. Yet there is no one who has more love than the Father.

So I am asking, who shows greater love for the convicted prisoner sentenced to die? The one who dies for him, or the one who looks at his son, daughter, neighbor, friend etc and asks them to go in place of the convict?

Unveiled Artist · Dec 5, 2018

Oeste said:
If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

No. That action would be something coming from me. Anyone can ask me (someone)to do a genuine and loving, but what I believe is that love comes from the person who does the act not the person who said it. Action before Words.

Oeste said:
See post #16 by 24x7.

What am I looking for?

Oeste said:
Jesus was sent by the Father. The Father did not come personally, he asked someone else to come. Yet there is no one who has more love than the Father.

So I am asking, who shows greater love for the convicted prisoner sentenced to die?

The one who dies for him, or

the one who looks at his son,
daughter, neighbor, friend etc and asks them to go in place of the convict?

Someone else?
An incarnation of himself or a separate human being?

The one who dies for the prisioner.

If I were the prisioner, I would thank the person who actually died for me not the person who said it.

In my belief, or personal opinion, I would not see it genuine to die for me if someone asked. Instead, that act has to come from that person himself; his choice. No one involved.

InChrist · Dec 5, 2018

Oeste said:
A question for the Unitarians and other Christians who doubt Jesus is God:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Notice that it is GOD that demonstrates His love towards us but it is CHRIST who dies.

Let's pretend Jesus is NOT God, just like you claim. How is it GOD showing his love toward us by asking someone else to die?

If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

This is extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God. But if he's not, I wonder how it's answered.

Thanks for playing!

I agree with your post completely.

Jesus is God and must be God because only God Himself can save, according to Isaiah 45:21 ...there is no other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.

Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” Matthew 1:23

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with his own blood. Acts 20 28

Riders · Dec 5, 2018

Oeste said:
A question for the Unitarians and other Christians who doubt Jesus is God:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Notice that it is GOD that demonstrates His love towards us but it is CHRIST who dies.

Let's pretend Jesus is NOT God, just like you claim. How is it GOD showing his love toward us by asking someone else to die?

If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

This is extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God. But if he's not, I wonder how it's answered.

Thanks for playing!

WHAT!??????????????????? This does not make sense to me. But dying for someone does not prove you are God. There are firemen policemen and people who help out at disasters who give their lives up for bunches of strangers everyday because they love their community.

What are you trying to say that all those guys who lay their lives down are all Gods? That does not prove anything. Present me some facts that add up to prove Jesus is God and I will reconsider my beliefs.

Riders · Dec 5, 2018

InChrist said:
I agree with your post completely.

Jesus is God and must be God because only God Himself can save, according to Isaiah 45:21 ...there is no other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.

Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” Matthew 1:23

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with his own blood. Acts 20 28

That's not proof.My name is Elizabeth. My name means one who gas seen the face of God. Believe me I have not seen the face of God so it does not make sense.

InChrist · Dec 5, 2018

Riders said:
That's not proof.My name is Elizabeth. My name means one who gas seen the face of God. Believe me I have not seen the face of God so it does not make sense.

That verse concerning the meaning of the name Immanuel was prophetic according to God's purpose, unlike the names people chose for their children. Also, it was not given in isolation. I included other verses which indicate that Jesus is God, of which there are too many to count throughout the scriptures, such as those just previous to Matthew 1:23 ...

But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
Matthew 1:20-21

Dawnofhope · Dec 5, 2018

Oeste said:
I think at some point we'll all come to know God, but the idea that our finite minds can understand the infinite is nonsense. God and Christ will always have a measure of mystery to us.

I agree.

Oeste said:
Even so I think we should undertake (or begin) our voyage to God. There are many false Gods, Christ's, and prophets out there and no one likes to be deceived. In this, the scripture we have is an invaluable resource towards helping us separate truth from fiction.

From a Baha'i perspective Jesus can be both 'God' and 'not God'. Sometimes I approach the topic from either angle but the outcome is the same. The bottom line is I believe Jesus to be a Manifestation of God. I have the same belief in the Bible that I regard as the inspired 'Word of God'.

The elephant in the room you allude to is of course whether or not God has revealed Himself through Christ's or Prophets that have come after Jesus. Baha'is would see Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah as being Manifestations of God similar to Jesus. The standard we apply needs us to both reject those who would deceive us, but accept those Who God has Manifested. It is just as much an error to reject a true prophet from God as the follow a false prophet.

Riders · Dec 5, 2018

InChrist said:
That verse concerning the meaning of the name Immanuel was prophetic according to God's purpose, unlike the names people chose for their children. Also, it was not given in isolation. I included other verses which indicate that Jesus is God, of which there are too many to count throughout the scriptures, such as those just previous to Matthew 1:23 ...

But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
Matthew 1:20-21

That still does not mean anything. Immanuel was and still today is a common name used by Middle eastern folks and also Hispanic as well. I know a lot of Hispanic folks with that name.

Many named their sons that who knew the prophecy too I am sure. Try again.

Riders · Dec 5, 2018

adrian009 said:
I agree.

From a Baha'i perspective Jesus can be both 'God' and 'not God'. Sometimes I approach the topic from either angle but the outcome is the same. The bottom line is I believe Jesus to be a Manifestation of God. I have the same belief in the Bible that I regard as the inspired 'Word of God'.

The elephant in the room you allude to is of course whether or not God has revealed Himself through Christ's or Prophets that have come after Jesus. Baha'is would see Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah as being Manifestations of God similar to Jesus. The standard we apply needs us to both reject those who would deceive us, but accept those Who God has Manifested. It is just as much an error to reject a true prophet from God as the follow a false prophet.

Some people believe that way I happen to believe the God scenario with Jesus was meant to be a New Age belief in that we are all Gods ,we have the inner God self. The example in the New Testament is when Jesus said the Kingdom Of God is within you!

Eee · Dec 5, 2018

If Jesus was God then why would he pray?

Gner · Dec 5, 2018

Oeste said:
A question for the Unitarians and other Christians who doubt Jesus is God:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Notice that it is GOD that demonstrates His love towards us but it is CHRIST who dies.

Let's pretend Jesus is NOT God, just like you claim. How is it GOD showing his love toward us by asking someone else to die?

If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

This is extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God. But if he's not, I wonder how it's answered.

Thanks for playing!

Jesus is God over everyone
but His Father.

Dawnofhope · Dec 5, 2018

Riders said:
Some people believe that way I happen to believe the God scenario with Jesus was meant to be a New Age belief in that we are all Gods ,we have the inner God self. The example in the New Testament is when Jesus said the Kingdom Of God is within you!

I believe there is some merit in that belief, though would recommend caution. We all have the capacity to be inspired and guided by God depending on the purity of our heart and sincerity. The difficultly is distinguishing what is inspired by God and what are our own thoughts. Having the guidance and words of God's Manifestations is an essential part of the checks and balances. In that regard, it is good to hear you are turning to the Bible to find support or otherwise for your beliefs. There are many ways of looking at Biblical scripture. Some Christian fundamentalists will argue there is only one way to see the Bible. They are entitled to their beliefs as much as we are entitled to ours.

Oeste · Dec 5, 2018

Joel1 said:
Well I do believe that Jesus is God, but I think we need to be very careful at what we are actually looking at in the Bible to pull out the correct answers to this. God does not actually force Jesus to die for the sins of the world, he willing (Being God) chose to become man so that he could die for us and that way who so ever believes in him and trusts in the lord Jesus Christ will be Saved. But this is not necessarily what were talking about. To answer your question I guess that we need to get all the facts straight. The only reason that God was able to die for the sins of the world was because he was sinless and perfect. So if Jesus was not God and was just a man then he would have to be perfect to be able to take away the sins of the world. But we all know that nobody is perfect in the way they live their life. Yes their are very nice people who may never shout or yell at you or try to hurt you, but the truth is that they have all sinned at one time or other. And even if some one could in fact live a perfect life they would still have inherited a sin nature when they are born so really the only person left to turn to who was sinless and perfect, is Jesus Christ.

Thank you @Joel1 and welcome to the forum!

Like you I believe Jesus is God, but for the sake of this thread I am presuming he is not.

Riders · Dec 5, 2018

Oeste said:
Thank you @Joel1 and welcome to the forum!

Like you I believe Jesus is God, but for the sake of this thread I am presuming he is not.

Jesus says he is not God when someone calls him good and he asks why saying there is none good but God.
In another conversation the rich an asks Jesus how to be saved and Jesus named off the 10 commandments. When asked again what else he could do to be saved Jesus said pickup your cross and follow me, sell your goods and give them to the poor.

Picking up your cross to follow him is actions doing the right thing as well as the 10 commandments is.That does not say anything about worshiping him as God or accepting him into your heart as God and lord.

InChrist · Dec 5, 2018

Eee said:
If Jesus was God then why would he pray?

Because he became flesh and lived as a human ...so He prayed.

InChrist · Dec 6, 2018

Riders said:
Jesus says he is not God when someone calls him good and he asks why saying there is none good but God.

Jesus' statement that none are good but God, rather than denying He is God, actually reveals that He is God because from the scriptures we know that Jesus was good, no sin was found in Him. Since only God is good and only God is sinless, then this proves Jesus is God.

Riders said:
In another conversation the rich an asks Jesus how to be saved and Jesus named off the 10 commandments. When asked again what else he could do to be saved Jesus said pickup your cross and follow me, sell your goods and give them to the poor.

Picking up your cross to follow him is actions doing the right thing as well as the 10 commandments is.That does not say anything about worshiping him as God or accepting him into your heart as God and lord.

Jesus was worshiped and by the way worship simply means to love and honor...Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. Mark 12:30

As a young child Jesus worshiped by the Magi...
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Matthew 2:11

Jesus accepted worship from His disciples
And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, Truly you are the Son of God.’Matthew 14:32-33

Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” John 20:27-28

Trackdayguy · Dec 6, 2018

I fail to see what all the fuss is about. There is not one shred of evidence that Jesus was anything else other than the biological son of Mary & Joseph.

Oeste · Dec 6, 2018

Amanaki said:
The OP question is actually very interesting. Is it possible that Jesus is God ?
Yes ofcourse it is possible but maybe Jesus is only a part of God too? Can it be that to be able to teach Human beings the Christian path God had to come in person to be able to reach out? Can it be that Jesus is a part of God because Jesus cultivated up to Godhood when he was on earth?

The question can be turned upside down but only when you look within you self will you find the answer

Hello Amanaki!

Yes, that's exactly what we're doing here...turning the question upside down.

I agree each person must look inside themselves to find answers, and one of the ways to find correct answers is to ask ourselves good questions. It's an excellent exercise that not only promotes deductive reasoning but can assist in spiritual discernment. I also find it much more rewarding than having questions and answers handed to me on a plate.

The question asked here most Christians would recognize as a simple "Berean" method of inquiry. We are searching scriptures to see if our premise is true.

So Jesus is not God?

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