A Roman Catholic on the Trinity

URAVIP2ME · Dec 2, 2018

rrobs said:
Yes, just like my father's son and therefore not my father. One father and one son make two people, not one.
Hebrews 1:9,

Thou (Jesus) hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy (Jesus') God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
If words mean anything at all, Jesus has a God. That is easy to understand, but if he were God it gets awfully complicated. God isn't in the business of confusing His children. He makes things pretty simple to understand. It's easy to understand that Jesus and God are two different people. It all makes sense. Otherwise, we have to bring in a lot of double talk, which is what the official Orthodox church is forced to use to "prove" the trinity.

I find the words found at Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B means that the pre-human heavenly Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God. According to Psalms 90:2 God had No beginning being from everlasting.
So, to me that means only God was before the beginning. So, then pre-human Jesus was Not before the beginning as his God was before the beginning.

I am wondering if you have any thoughts about Revelation 3:12 (Psalms 89:26)

URAVIP2ME · Dec 2, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
A human father and son are related because they have the same blood. So when you talk to the son, you basically talking to the father: like father like son. The father and son are one.

I can see how the father and son can be 'one' in unity, purpose, ideas, opinion, faith, agreement, goals, etc.
Jesus even prayed that his followers 'be one as he and his Father are one' at John 17:11; John 17:21-23.
Surely Jesus was Not praying they all be God.
A father has his blood from his very own parents, whereas the son has his blood from his very own parents.
Those who are related because they have the 'same blood' would be the son's ' brothers ' from the same parents.

Unveiled Artist · Dec 2, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
I can see how the father and son can be 'one' in unity, purpose, ideas, opinion, faith, agreement, goals, etc.
Jesus even prayed that his followers 'be one as he and his Father are one' at John 17:11; John 17:21-23.
Surely Jesus was Not praying they all be God.
A father has his blood from his very own parents, whereas the son has his blood from his very own parents.
Those who are related because they have the 'same blood' would be the son's ' brothers ' from the same parents.

Okay....?

rrobs · Dec 2, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
I find the words found at Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B means that the pre-human heavenly Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God. According to Psalms 90:2 God had No beginning being from everlasting.
So, to me that means only God was before the beginning. So, then pre-human Jesus was Not before the beginning as his God was before the beginning.

I am wondering if you have any thoughts about Revelation 3:12 (Psalms 89:26)

Rev 3:12,

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Who is speaking in this verse? Jesus.

Rev 1:1,

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

God gave Jesus Christ a revelation which he, Jesus Christ is passing on to John for distribution to us. There is a giver and receiver, God and Jesus, respectively. Two People. So the words to follow are those of Jesus.

Verse 4 & 5 clearly state that the message to follow is from Jesus and to the 7 churches in Asia. Verse 5 speaks of the writer, i.e. Jesus having been raised from the dead. To be raised one must first die. As a side note, a man can die, a God cannot.

Now onto 3:12:

Rev 3:12,

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Remember who is speaking. Jesus Christ. In that one verse he speaks of his God four different times! Therefore, Jesus Christ is not God. He's the only begotten son of God who carried out God's plan (the logos) to redeem the rest of his brothers and sisters (also human, of course) from the clutches of the devil. He, who was sinless, became sin, suffering unimaginable horror during his torture and death, so that we can be redeemed from the curse caused by Adam's sin. What love that man must have had! Well, he got all from his God! And to think that we also have that love of our God dwelling within! Jesus is indeed our savior, but we only have one God, who is the father of that savior.

rrobs · Dec 2, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
I can see how the father and son can be 'one' in unity, purpose, ideas, opinion, faith, agreement, goals, etc.
Jesus even prayed that his followers 'be one as he and his Father are one' at John 17:11; John 17:21-23.
Surely Jesus was Not praying they all be God.
A father has his blood from his very own parents, whereas the son has his blood from his very own parents.
Those who are related because they have the 'same blood' would be the son's ' brothers ' from the same parents.

It also says somewhere that Paul and Apollos where "one" in their efforts to spread the Gospel. Good men and all, but not God!

Everybody understands in profane literature that when two or more things are referred to as "one," it invariably means exactly what you said, one in purpose, goals, etc. But when the exact same phrase is read in the Bible it suddenly means the two or more things are actually somehow literally "one." I find that interesting. The power of 2,000 years of tradition in full bloom!

9-18-1 · Dec 2, 2018

rrobs said:
The Roman Catholic writer Thomas Hart, in his book, To Know and Follow Jesus, commented on a couple of verses in Hebrews.

Heb 2:17,

Wherefore in all things it behoved him (Jesus) to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 4:15,

For we have not an high priest (Jesus) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

"The Chalcedonian formula [the council's decision declaring Jesus both God and man] makes genuine humanity impossible. The conciliar definition says that Jesus is true man. But if there are two natures in him, it is clear which will dominate. And Jesus becomes immediately very different from us. He is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. He knows the past, present, and future … He knows exactly what everyone is thinking and going to do. This is far from ordinary human experience. Jesus is tempted but cannot sin because he is God. What kind of temptation is this? It has little in common with the kinds of struggles we are familiar with."

Indeed, had Jesus known He was God he would not have been at all like the rest of us.

Forgive me but I'm having trouble understanding what any of this has to do with the Trinity.

The Trinity can really only be understood when the nature of the human body (temple of God) is considered:

Head/Intellect
Heart/Emotion
Sex/Instinct

and are given the names:
Father/Son/Holy Spirit in Christianity
Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva in Hindu tradition
Kether/Chokmah/Binah in Hebrew

The Trinity is also present in the first Hebrew letter Aleph which is comprised of three Yuds: two on either side of one extended Yud (vav). These three Yuds indicate the three primary forces that Christianity renders Father/Son/Holy Spirit. The Trinity is also present in the first three letters of YHVH:
Y=Yod (head)
H=Heh (heart)
V=Vav (sex)
which produces the word YHV (Jew) and when the final H is added produces a Yod and Vav with a Heh on either side; the same symbol as Jesus being flanked on either side by a virgin and a whore. This represents the pure/impure duality that exists in creation.

As such I can't find anything in the OP that in any way relates to the Trinity.

shmogie · Dec 3, 2018

rrobs said:
I think the topic is difficult once Jesus is made to be God. If he is understood as the son of God and not God the son all the difficulty goes away. Few Christians are willing to even consider that Jesus is not God, so orthodox Christianity has indeed complicated things.

An Arian perspective ?

rrobs · Dec 3, 2018

9-18-1 said:
Forgive me but I'm having trouble understanding what any of this has to do with the Trinity.

The Trinity can really only be understood when the nature of the human body (temple of God) is considered:

Head/Intellect
Heart/Emotion
Sex/Instinct

and are given the names:
Father/Son/Holy Spirit in Christianity
Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva in Hindu tradition
Kether/Chokmah/Binah in Hebrew

The Trinity is also present in the first Hebrew letter Aleph which is comprised of three Yuds: two on either side of one extended Yud (vav). These three Yuds indicate the three primary forces that Christianity renders Father/Son/Holy Spirit. The Trinity is also present in the first three letters of YHVH:
Y=Yod (head)
H=Heh (heart)
V=Vav (sex)
which produces the word YHV (Jew) and when the final H is added produces a Yod and Vav with a Heh on either side; the same symbol as Jesus being flanked on either side by a virgin and a whore. This represents the pure/impure duality that exists in creation.

As such I can't find anything in the OP that in any way relates to the Trinity.

Well, the OP doesn't say anything at all about the trinity. Hart is quoting two verses from the book of Hebrews that say Jesus is just like us which strongly suggests he was a man and not a god or a god-man.

Remember, as Hart pointed out, the book of Hebrews clearly says Jesus is just like us. None of us can be our own father and so neither can he. He is the son of God and therefore not God Himself. While it is true that being God's son does mean Jesus shares in the nature of God, so do all born again Christians. God planted incorruptible seed in us (1 Peter 1:23) so we are also God's children and share in His divine nature, just like Jesus. That is the real beauty of the word Jesus accomplished at Calvary. Jesus paid the price. We enjoy the fruits of his work. Grace at its finest!

rrobs · Dec 3, 2018

shmogie said:
An Arian perspective ?

No. While Arius believed Jesus was not equal to God, he still thought of him as something of a demigod. I believe, as the verses in Hebrews clearly state, that Jesus was like us. I personally have no consciousness of myself being a demigod.

Jesus was a man who experienced life just like us. He got angry, sad, hungry, and thirsty. He experienced all the temptations we all experience. Had he been God or even a demigod it could hardly be said that he faced those temptation the same way we do.

Jesus was a man, albeit a rather special man. He, just like Adam, was came into this world with innocent blood. Those are the only two men for whom that can be said. Adam disobeyed God and his blood became guilty. Since we all share his blood we too are guilty. We are not made guilty by our sins. We are guilty by nature and that nature is why we sin. Death came by sin, not by our sins. We were born sinners. Dogs bark, cats meow, cows moo, and sinners sin. It's the nature of the beast.

But God created a whole new creature in Mary's womb, one whose blood did not come from Adam, but from God Himself. Thus, like Adam, Jesus was born with innocent blood. Whereas Adam sinned, Jesus did not sin, not once in his entire lifetime. But, being like us with free will, he certainly could have, in which case he would no longer have qualified as the lamb without blemish and we'd still be waiting for redemption. Jesus obeyed God even to the death on the cross. He even asked God at the end if there was some other way, but he ended up saying, "not my will but thine be done." Jesus had the same misgivings any of us would have at the prospect of being crucified. I'm sure he was torn up on the inside, knowing what lay ahead. But he put his personal feelings aside and followed God's will to the very end.

I trust you can imagine the greatness of that story as opposed to God simply believing and obeying Himself. Jesus had to believe God would raise him from the dead. I'm not sure how many other men, if any, would have had that much faith. For a God to believe Himself is a rather dull and boring prospect, but for a man to believe that is something else altogether. A much better story, more appropriate to what God almighty does for us.

Jesus was all man. He was not God nor a god-man. That position is reserved for the pagan gods of the Greeks and Romans. Our God is much bigger than that!

Unveiled Artist · Dec 3, 2018

Rrobs. Do you pray to God directly or do you use jesus as a mediator to god by praying In His Name?

rrobs said:
I'm not saying you are wrong, but can you give me one verse that specifically says we worship God in the name of Jesus?

I don't know of any denomination that doesn't put jesus in the middle between them and god. Unless you mean something else???

-
Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.” (John 16:23-24)

“And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.” (John 14:13-14)

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. And so on and so forth

Do you pray to God in the name of Jesus (christ)?

If so, why?

You wouldn't pray to me to get to god. I'm just a human just as christ. We are not God. So... If jesus is just a regular human, why pray in his name and if you don't, who is he or his function to which you are a christian and not say a Jew of muslim? Or bahai even?

shmogie · Dec 3, 2018

rrobs said:
No. While Arius believed Jesus was not equal to God, he still thought of him as something of a demigod. I believe, as the verses in Hebrews clearly state, that Jesus was like us. I personally have no consciousness of myself being a demigod.

Jesus was a man who experienced life just like us. He got angry, sad, hungry, and thirsty. He experienced all the temptations we all experience. Had he been God or even a demigod it could hardly be said that he faced those temptation the same way we do.

Jesus was a man, albeit a rather special man. He, just like Adam, was came into this world with innocent blood. Those are the only two men for whom that can be said. Adam disobeyed God and his blood became guilty. Since we all share his blood we too are guilty. We are not made guilty by our sins. We are guilty by nature and that nature is why we sin. Death came by sin, not by our sins. We were born sinners. Dogs bark, cats meow, cows moo, and sinners sin. It's the nature of the beast.

But God created a whole new creature in Mary's womb, one whose blood did not come from Adam, but from God Himself. Thus, like Adam, Jesus was born with innocent blood. Whereas Adam sinned, Jesus did not sin, not once in his entire lifetime. But, being like us with free will, he certainly could have, in which case he would no longer have qualified as the lamb without blemish and we'd still be waiting for redemption. Jesus obeyed God even to the death on the cross. He even asked God at the end if there was some other way, but he ended up saying, "not my will but thine be done." Jesus had the same misgivings any of us would have at the prospect of being crucified. I'm sure he was torn up on the inside, knowing what lay ahead. But he put his personal feelings aside and followed God's will to the very end.

I trust you can imagine the greatness of that story as opposed to God simply believing and obeying Himself. Jesus had to believe God would raise him from the dead. I'm not sure how many other men, if any, would have had that much faith. For a God to believe Himself is a rather dull and boring prospect, but for a man to believe that is something else altogether. A much better story, more appropriate to what God almighty does for us.

Jesus was all man. He was not God nor a god-man. That position is reserved for the pagan gods of the Greeks and Romans. Our God is much bigger than that!

How do you interpret John. 1:1 ?

rrobs · Dec 3, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Rrobs. Do you pray to God directly or do you use jesus as a mediator to god by praying In His Name?

I don't know of any denomination that doesn't put jesus in the middle between them and god. Unless you mean something else???

Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.” (John 16:23-24)

“And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.” (John 14:13-14)

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. And so on and so forth

Do you pray to God in the name of Jesus (christ)?

If so, why?

You wouldn't pray to me to get to god. I'm just a human just as christ. We are not God. So... If jesus is just a regular human, why pray in his name and if you don't, who is he or his function to which you are a christian and not say a Jew of muslim? Or bahai even?

Good point. I do pray in his name because the scriptures say to do that as evidenced by the two verses you quoted. The scriptures also say Jesus is the mediator between us and God.

1 Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It plainly says that there one mediator between God and men, the man, not the God or the God-man, but the man Jesus Christ. I think we all know what a man means.

I do not in any way shape or form think of Jesus as a "regular" man. He was a very special man. Read my post #49 to see what I mean.

Unveiled Artist · Dec 3, 2018

rrobs said:
I do not in any way shape or form think of Jesus as a "regular" man. He was a very special man. Read my post #49 to see what I mean.

I know. The thing that gets me is if he isn't god and not a regular human, what is he? (Not his function nor his traits). What is his nature?

9-18-1 · Dec 3, 2018

rrobs said:
Well, the OP doesn't say anything at all about the trinity. Hart is quoting two verses from the book of Hebrews that say Jesus is just like us which strongly suggests he was a man and not a god or a god-man.

Remember, as Hart pointed out, the book of Hebrews clearly says Jesus is just like us. None of us can be our own father and so neither can he. He is the son of God and therefore not God Himself. While it is true that being God's son does mean Jesus shares in the nature of God, so do all born again Christians. God planted incorruptible seed in us (1 Peter 1:23) so we are also God's children and share in His divine nature, just like Jesus. That is the real beauty of the word Jesus accomplished at Calvary. Jesus paid the price. We enjoy the fruits of his work. Grace at its finest!

I think people that take Jesus to be a literal/real historical man are essentially idol worshipers. Of course telling an idol worshiper they are worshiping an idol is like telling an insane person they are insane and expecting them to understand.

As to the OP, of course 'Jesus' is like us because each being has/contains his/her own 'Christ'. Even "Jesus" taught that. In mystery schools such as gnosis Christ is 'wisdom' of a triune relationship of 'crowned (father) wisdom (son) & understanding (holy spirit)'. One can not be the father, one can be one with the father, just as one can be crowned with wisdom and understanding but not be those things in and of themselves.

rrobs · Dec 3, 2018

shmogie said:
How do you interpret John. 1:1 ?

It's a very simple verse if it's read without putting preconceived ideas into it.

It simply says that the logos, (not Jesus) was with God. Logos is a Greek word that is translated "word." But the actual word logos means much more than a simple word. It means the thought process behind the word, what was going on in the mind of the speaker. It can be thought of as a plan.

God had a plan in the beginning to redeem man from the clutches of the devil. Now that plan most certainly involved Jesus Christ. In fact Jesus was the star player in the plan.

Ever wonder why God didn't come down right after Adam and Eve sinned and make everything right? Why did He wait so long? The simple answer is that man got us into the mess and it had to be a man who got us out of the mess. If you look carefully at Genesis, you will see that God put man in charge of the earth. While it is popular opinion that God controls this earth, it is not what the scriptures say. He gave the dominion to man and being a just God, He couldn't just renege and take control back from man. So somehow God had to put it into some man's mind to follow the logos, the scriptures. That of course would have been Jesus.

It took some time for God to reveal the plan. It was revealed in the OT. God had to wait until a woman would say, "be it done unto me according to Thy word." Not really an easy thing considering the mother of Jesus would be a virgin. Mary was an incredibly wonderful woman. She was the first to believe God to plant seed into her womb. That's why Jesus is God's son, and that is why Jesus began life with innocent blood. The only other man that was born with innocent blood was Adam. He blew it though and we all shared in his guilty blood because we all share his seed. That's why we die. We don't die because of our sins, but by his sin. Because of Adam we all come into this world with a sin nature. Our seed is corruptible as 1 Peter 1:23 says. How was God to fix this without overstepping our God given free will? That's the logos.

Like I said, Jesus started with innocent blood because his seed did not come from Adam, but from God. But, like Adam, Jesus had free will and he could have sinned just like Adam did in which case he would no longer qualify as the required lamb without blemish. The way God did that was through the scriptures, His word.

Jesus had to read the scriptures to learn who he was. He came into this world, not as an all knowing god, but as a man. He knew a grand total of nothing the moment he was born, just like the rest of us. But he learned. The scriptures say, "he grew in stature and wisdom." He learned about God just like we all did, via God's word.
God had to spell out in detail how a man could redeem us from sin and death. The plan was the epitome of brilliance.

The big difference between Jesus and the rest of us is that Jesus obeyed God's word, every jot and title, including a horrendous death. Would you want to die like him? Well, he really didn't either. What man would? But when Jesus asked God to take the cup away from him (clearly his wish, his will), he said, "not my will, but thine be done."

Hebrews 1:1 said that God spoke his plan to man in divers ways and times. But in these latter days he spoke through His son, Jesus Christ. Those latter days began when Jesus was born. Luke speaks of the beginning of Jesus. That is John 1:14. Jesus was a perfect image of God and His word. He always did his Father's will, without fail. If you saw Jesus you did indeed see God. It's like when we say, "if you seen one, you've seen them all." Well, we don't literally see "them all" but by seeing the one perfect example the "one" presents we may as well have "seen them all." We all understand what that means in everyday talk. It means the same thing when Jesus said he was a perfect reflection of God. Doesn't mean he actually was God.

God's plan (logos), which was with Him in the beginning, but that plan didn't take the form of a man until much later.

That is a really quick and dirty explanation of the word logos. To simply substitute the word "Jesus" for "word" in John 1:1 denigrates both God, who came up with the brilliant plan, and the man Jesus who carried out that plan. What's the big deal for God to obey Himself? What's the big deal for God to have believed Himself that He would raise Himself from the dead? But for a man, with like passions, feeling, aspirations, hopes, etc. as the rest of us, now that's a story of all stories. Besides, it's the truth!

rrobs · Dec 3, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
I know. The thing that gets me is if he isn't god and not a regular human, what is he? (Not his function nor his traits). What is his nature?

The big difference between Jesus and us was that he was born with innocent blood. Therefore, he had a chance at conquering death, not only for himself, but for anybody who makes him Lord and believes God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9).

He, like all living creatures, shared the nature of his father. Since his father was God, he shared God's nature just like we all share the nature of our own parents. But sharing the nature of your parents does not make you your parents. Same with Jesus. He shared God's nature, but that doesn't make him God.

When we get born again (Rom 10:9) God becomes our father. We are His children. Hence we also share in the divine nature. All thanks to the work of one man, Jesus Christ. He did the work. We, by grace and grace alone, share the benefits.

1Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The first time we were born it was of corruptible seed, hence we die. Jesus' seed was from God and therefore incorruptible. He lay down his life voluntarily. Unlike the rest of us, he could have lived forever as long as he never sinned and corrupted his innocent blood like Adam did. Although we were born the first time by corruptible seed, we are born again (Rom 10:9) by incorruptible seed and that is why we have eternal life. All thanks to the man Jesus Christ.

rrobs · Dec 3, 2018

9-18-1 said:
I think people that take Jesus to be a literal/real historical man are essentially idol worshipers. Of course telling an idol worshiper they are worshiping an idol is like telling an insane person they are insane and expecting them to understand.

As to the OP, of course 'Jesus' is like us because each being has/contains his/her own 'Christ'. Even "Jesus" taught that. In mystery schools such as gnosis Christ is 'wisdom' of a triune relationship of 'crowned (father) wisdom (son) & understanding (holy spirit)'. One can not be the father, one can be one with the father, just as one can be crowned with wisdom and understanding but not be those things in and of themselves.

Where did you get all those ideas? I'm not saying you're wrong, just curious as to you got them.

lostwanderingsoul · Dec 3, 2018

rrobs said:
The big difference between Jesus and us was that he was born with innocent blood. Therefore, he had a chance at conquering death, not only for himself, but for anybody who makes him Lord and believes God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9).

He, like all living creatures, shared the nature of his father. Since his father was God, he shared God's nature just like we all share the nature of our own parents. But sharing the nature of your parents does not make you your parents. Same with Jesus. He shared God's nature, but that doesn't make him God.

When we get born again (Rom 10:9) God becomes our father. We are His children. Hence we also share in the divine nature. All thanks to the work of one man, Jesus Christ. He did the work. We, by grace and grace alone, share the benefits.

1Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The first time we were born it was of corruptible seed, hence we die. Jesus' seed was from God and therefore incorruptible. He lay down his life voluntarily. Unlike the rest of us, he could have lived forever as long as he never sinned and corrupted his innocent blood like Adam did. Although we were born the first time by corruptible seed, we are born again (Rom 10:9) by incorruptible seed and that is why we have eternal life. All thanks to the man Jesus Christ.

May I ask exactly when you believe this second birth by incorruptable seed takes place? Is it at baptism or at some other specific action or is it at different times for different people?

Unveiled Artist · Dec 3, 2018

rrobs said:
The big difference between Jesus and us was that he was born with innocent blood.

Therefore, he had a chance at conquering death, not only for himself, but for anybody who makes him Lord and believes God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9).

Jesus cant be like us when he has innoncent blood. He isnt god. So....

rrobs said:
He, like all living creatures, shared the nature of his father. Since his father was God, he shared God's nature just like we all share the nature of our own parents. But sharing the nature of your parents does not make you your parents. Same with Jesus. He shared God's nature, but that doesn't make him God.

How can sin share in the nature of purity and innocence?

rrobs said:
The first time we were born it was of corruptible seed, hence we die. Jesus' seed was from God and therefore incorruptible. He lay down his life voluntarily. Unlike the rest of us, he could have lived forever as long as he never sinned and corrupted his innocent blood like Adam did.

I hear this a lot; so, I understand the concept. The actual process or connecting how a three thousand (lets say) yearo ld person can save anyone in the 21st century is beyond me.

rrobs said:
Although we were born the first time by corruptible seed, we are born again (Rom 10:9) by incorruptible seed and that is why we have eternal life. All thanks to the man Jesus Christ.

..

shmogie · Dec 3, 2018

rrobs said:
It's a very simple verse if it's read without putting preconceived ideas into it.

It simply says that the logos, (not Jesus) was with God. Logos is a Greek word that is translated "word." But the actual word logos means much more than a simple word. It means the thought process behind the word, what was going on in the mind of the speaker. It can be thought of as a plan.

God had a plan in the beginning to redeem man from the clutches of the devil. Now that plan most certainly involved Jesus Christ. In fact Jesus was the star player in the plan.

Ever wonder why God didn't come down right after Adam and Eve sinned and make everything right? Why did He wait so long? The simple answer is that man got us into the mess and it had to be a man who got us out of the mess. If you look carefully at Genesis, you will see that God put man in charge of the earth. While it is popular opinion that God controls this earth, it is not what the scriptures say. He gave the dominion to man and being a just God, He couldn't just renege and take control back from man. So somehow God had to put it into some man's mind to follow the logos, the scriptures. That of course would have been Jesus.

It took some time for God to reveal the plan. It was revealed in the OT. God had to wait until a woman would say, "be it done unto me according to Thy word." Not really an easy thing considering the mother of Jesus would be a virgin. Mary was an incredibly wonderful woman. She was the first to believe God to plant seed into her womb. That's why Jesus is God's son, and that is why Jesus began life with innocent blood. The only other man that was born with innocent blood was Adam. He blew it though and we all shared in his guilty blood because we all share his seed. That's why we die. We don't die because of our sins, but by his sin. Because of Adam we all come into this world with a sin nature. Our seed is corruptible as 1 Peter 1:23 says. How was God to fix this without overstepping our God given free will? That's the logos.

Like I said, Jesus started with innocent blood because his seed did not come from Adam, but from God. But, like Adam, Jesus had free will and he could have sinned just like Adam did in which case he would no longer qualify as the required lamb without blemish. The way God did that was through the scriptures, His word.

Jesus had to read the scriptures to learn who he was. He came into this world, not as an all knowing god, but as a man. He knew a grand total of nothing the moment he was born, just like the rest of us. But he learned. The scriptures say, "he grew in stature and wisdom." He learned about God just like we all did, via God's word.
God had to spell out in detail how a man could redeem us from sin and death. The plan was the epitome of brilliance.

The big difference between Jesus and the rest of us is that Jesus obeyed God's word, every jot and title, including a horrendous death. Would you want to die like him? Well, he really didn't either. What man would? But when Jesus asked God to take the cup away from him (clearly his wish, his will), he said, "not my will, but thine be done."

Hebrews 1:1 said that God spoke his plan to man in divers ways and times. But in these latter days he spoke through His son, Jesus Christ. Those latter days began when Jesus was born. Luke speaks of the beginning of Jesus. That is John 1:14. Jesus was a perfect image of God and His word. He always did his Father's will, without fail. If you saw Jesus you did indeed see God. It's like when we say, "if you seen one, you've seen them all." Well, we don't literally see "them all" but by seeing the one perfect example the "one" presents we may as well have "seen them all." We all understand what that means in everyday talk. It means the same thing when Jesus said he was a perfect reflection of God. Doesn't mean he actually was God.

God's plan (logos), which was with Him in the beginning, but that plan didn't take the form of a man until much later.

That is a really quick and dirty explanation of the word logos. To simply substitute the word "Jesus" for "word" in John 1:1 denigrates both God, who came up with the brilliant plan, and the man Jesus who carried out that plan. What's the big deal for God to obey Himself? What's the big deal for God to have believed Himself that He would raise Himself from the dead? But for a man, with like passions, feeling, aspirations, hopes, etc. as the rest of us, now that's a story of all stories. Besides, it's the truth!

It seems to me that you have adopted an idea, then interpret scripture to fit that idea. I know of no one trinitarian or arian who believes that Christ had, as a human, any more power than a pre fall Adam to overcome sin. That, of course, is the whole point.

There are a number of verses in the OT, I will look them up for you, where God refers to himself, or others refer to him, in the plural sense ¨let us make man in our image¨ comes to mind. The original Koine Greek is clearly and properly reflected in the English translation, how do you square these passages with your belief ?

A Roman Catholic on the Trinity

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