Forgivness

Faithofchristian said:

If I may ask, how did you come by that of Matthew 21.
Because it sure doesn't match up to Matthew 21, that I have

Matthew 21:20-30
And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

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Ah thanks. It's from Matthew 18:21-35. Not 21:20-30. I edited it.

I'd go as far as to say that forgiveness is essential to maintaining good mental health as it gives the individual a form of closure so that they can move on with their lives. Forgiving, however, does not mean forgetting. Forgiving without monitoring future interactions with the forgiven is foolishness.

Amanaki said:

What is your view of forgivness?

Can you forgive anyone who do you wrong?
If not, why?

Click to expand...

releases the victim from the assault by the perpetrator; usually the victim learns something from it, or realizes the perp acts from ignorance and doesn't reconizes the repercussions to self as other.. doesn't release the perpetrator from their conditional mind.

Thief said:

I think what I am asking.....
at what point is forgiveness a gesture wasted?

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Forgiveness as a physical thing is meaningless because forgiveness takes place in the spiritual.
Thus, as a physical gesture, it means nothing unless accompanied with it's spiritual essence.

A person can troll other people by telling them that he ''forgives" them. "Oh, I 'forgive' you!" People can twist the outward appearance of things as a power play. Because I've 'forgiven' you, you have to change your actions. Nope. Doesn't work that way. Forgiveness is a spiritual action, not merely the physical action of speaking a few words in vain.

The benefit, in the spiritual, of forgiveness is for the one who forgives and not for the one being forgiven. Just as the benefit of repentance, in the spiritual, in for the benefit of the one who repents.

Forgiveness is not a concession to evil nor an allowance to someone to do evil.

Ponder This said:

Forgiveness is not a concession to evil nor an allowance to someone to do evil.

Click to expand...

so there is a line drawn.....

this world and the next

Ponder This said:

Forgiveness is not a concession to evil nor an allowance to someone to do evil.

Click to expand...

and again....

should the devil be forgiven.....what he did unto Job

his actions were not commanded by God (though some people think so)
his actions were allowed
his actions were of his own freewill
he did evil unto Job

the actions were dealt in the physical
but the story is aimed at the spiritual

should we forgive the devil?.....what he did unto someone else

this thread is about to change course.....

a prostitute was set upon by a crowd of accusers
she was about to die

the event was interrupted when the Carpenter spoke.....
Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone
the crowd was silent as they wandered away

and He said to the woman......
if no one will condemn you....neither shall I....
sin no more

is that forgiveness?
a lack of consequence?
the offence rendered moot by the lack of judgment

Forgivness with no ends is a lack of boundries.

To be a functinal human we must have strong boundries. I personally think it is most suitable to not forgive as if nothing has happened. To asses the circumstances and to not take them personally as much as you can is ideal. To move foreward from that judgment with awareness of the situation.

I say this but also I've got a best friend who has done some crazy stuff and i really don't care, it is the lack of boundries between us. I really trust them to look after me though.
Love, she is blind no?

So with everything it is situational.

But forgiveness until when? Even after a person 'dies'?

I know that God so loved the World that He gave His Only Begotten Son.

But do I continually 'play' around with His forgiveness hoping for another 'day'? What if I don't make it to that 'day' for some reason?

If I don't know what's on the 'other side', at the Day of Judgement and beyond, should I care?


So I die 'joking' around with The LORD God (J)esus Christ and I get resurrected as everyone will. I stand before Them and am offered another chance to get things right?

And outside the 'city' will be full of adulterers and sorcerers, etc...

Revelation 22:14-15 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."


without:
1854. exó
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
away, forth, without, strange.
Adverb from ek; out(-side, of doors), literally or figuratively -- away, forth, (with-)out (of, -ward), strange.

But a Righteous 'city' surrounded by the 'dogs and sorcerers, and the whoremongers and the murderers and the idolaters and whosoever loves and makes a lie?


How will this work? The 'city' will be on Earth, right?


Revelation 20:12-13 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."


The 'dead' standing before God?


We might as well begin learning to get along now rather than wait till then.


I knew of a crazy person who said he bargained with The LORD God (J)esus Christ. This is what he bargained for:

He said that he asked The LORD God (J)esus Christ to allow him to be that 'satan' that was going to be bound in chains for 1000 years and then after that to be released for a little while/season.

I think the reason why he asked for this is so that he would 'see' what the very end would like with his own eyes. But the thing is is that he would have seen it regardless. Everyone will see that day. Not only the 'devil' which is loosed for a little while/season..


Some get away with very 'strange' proposals/bargains.

Knowing that 'Satan' that Lucifer is not really a fallen Holy Angel, could this whole Revelation stuff be for that person who made that 'bargain/proposal' in which ever 'generation' he/she/they might live within? A person only has 80 or so years of life expectancy, right?

Thief said:

and again....

should the devil be forgiven.....what he did unto Job

his actions were not commanded by God (though some people think so)
his actions were allowed
his actions were of his own freewill
he did evil unto Job

the actions were dealt in the physical
but the story is aimed at the spiritual

should we forgive the devil?.....what he did unto someone else

Click to expand...

I believe the phrase you are looking for is 'Get thee behind me Satan'. Forgiveness is not something that ties your hands and gives allowance to evil to do things. In Job, it wasn't the Devil that people were blaming, but rather they blamed God (for allowing such misfortune and calamity to occur). I believe his wife suggested that he 'Curse God and Die!', which, obviously, Job did not do. But even Job had to repent to God (despite all the apparent terrible things that happened to him). That people want to have a convenient scapegoat like the Devil to blame for their misfortune may say more about the those placing the blame than it says about the Devil. We are eager to hold ourselves blameless for any perceived transgression, preferring to blame others rather than accept blame and repent.

Thief said:

this thread is about to change course.....

a prostitute was set upon by a crowd of accusers
she was about to die

the event was interrupted when the Carpenter spoke.....
Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone
the crowd was silent as they wandered away

and He said to the woman......
if no one will condemn you....neither shall I....
sin no more

is that forgiveness?
a lack of consequence?
the offence rendered moot by the lack of judgment

Click to expand...

Hmm. If a group of people came to you and said, "Here is this horrible terrible person who has done these terrible things, sins against God! We want you to kill him for us." What would you do?
A. Of course! He's guilty, if you say he's guilty! Kill Him!
B. If he's as bad as you say, why don't you kill him yourself?

Ponder This said:

I believe the phrase you are looking for is 'Get thee behind me Satan'. Forgiveness is not something that ties your hands and gives allowance to evil to do things. In Job, it wasn't the Devil that people were blaming, but rather they blamed God (for allowing such misfortune and calamity to occur). I believe his wife suggested that he 'Curse God and Die!', which, obviously, Job did not do. But even Job had to repent to God (despite all the apparent terrible things that happened to him). That people want to have a convenient scapegoat like the Devil to blame for their misfortune may say more about the those placing the blame than it says about the Devil. We are eager to hold ourselves blameless for any perceived transgression, preferring to blame others rather than accept blame and repent.



Hmm. If a group of people came to you and said, "Here is this horrible terrible person who has done these terrible things, sins against God! We want you to kill him for us." What would you do?
A. Of course! He's guilty, if you say he's guilty! Kill Him!
B. If he's as bad as you say, why don't you kill him yourself?

Click to expand...

ah...

as I read Job i noticed....
God had nothing to prove
and knowing His servant...Job had nothing to prove
it was the devil attempting to assert himself more so
than the least of God's servants

by drawing attention to the least of servants.....the devil was insulted

Job is heard to say.....the Lord gives...the Lord takes away
not even to acknowledge the devil in anyway
this would be even a greater insult
the least of servants refusing to not anything by the hand of the devil

forgiven?.....I think not
the devil wasn't asking

as for drawing sword and doing justice.....
I would need more than complaint from my fellowman

on the other hand.....
harm any loved one......and .....
Thief is ninja!!!!!

( I just love posting that)

Thief said:

ah...

as I read Job i noticed....
God had nothing to prove
and knowing His servant...Job had nothing to prove
it was the devil attempting to assert himself more so
than the least of God's servants

by drawing attention to the least of servants.....the devil was insulted

Job is heard to say.....the Lord gives...the Lord takes away
not even to acknowledge the devil in anyway
this would be even a greater insult
the least of servants refusing to not anything by the hand of the devil

forgiven?.....I think not
the devil wasn't asking

as for drawing sword and doing justice.....
I would need more than complaint from my fellowman

on the other hand.....
harm any loved one......and .....
Thief is ninja!!!!!

( I just love posting that)

Click to expand...

I think it's important to recognize that we have a desire to take vengeance for wrongs done.

Just as the wounded animal lashes out at anything that approaches, so too do our hurts and pains, hurt and pain others around us in subtle ways: our instinct to return harm for harm even when the cause of harm has passed.

Ponder This said:

I think it's important to recognize that we have a desire to take vengeance for wrongs done.

Just as the wounded animal lashes out at anything that approaches, so too do our hurts and pains, hurt and pain others around us in subtle ways: our instinct to return harm for harm even when the cause of harm has passed.

Click to expand...

ah yes.....a contrary discipline....
Do good unto those who do harm

I do use discretion
I have met some (people) that will take advantage of such practice

so it is also written....
it is not well to give the meat of the children unto dogs

Thief said:

ah yes.....a contrary discipline....
Do good unto those who do harm

I do use discretion
I have met some (people) that will take advantage of such practice

so it is also written....
it is not well to give the meat of the children unto dogs

Click to expand...

Doing good to those who would do harm is quite contrary. So, maybe don't do that.

... forgiveness concerns itself with the cancellation of debts, not the bestowal of boons...

It is written: do not cast your pearls before swine.
And it is cautioned, do not go out into the world without a sword!

But the merciful will be shown mercy.
What will the grudge holder inherit? What will the unrepentant reap?

It is said, "There is no rest for the wicked"

Amanaki said:

What is your view of forgivness?
Can you forgive anyone who do you wrong? If not, why?

Click to expand...

"Beware lest ye harm any soul, or make any heart to sorrow; lest ye wound any man with your words, be he known to you or a stranger, be he friend or foe. Pray ye for all; ask ye that all be blessed, all be forgiven. Beware, beware, lest any of you seek vengeance, even against one who is thirsting for your blood. Beware, beware, lest ye offend the feelings of another, even though he be an evil-doer, and he wish you ill."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 73