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Okay. I got my physical bible out

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's not serious, deep, philosophical statement. I see metaphysics (the definition you gave) as new age, abstract, magic of some sort. People have mystic experiences and such. You derailed my point. It has nothing to do with metaphysics.

It' the definition you copied and pasted. Nothing fancier than that and not even near the context of the post.
Forgive my saying so, but that you equate all of metaphysical thoughts as "new age", does not sound very informed. It appears to you as not "hard science" enough and therefore worthless, like the magic fairies of new age. By contrast, I am able to make very clear and hard distinctions between these. One is the imaginations of children, and the other are descriptions of actual experience which are not taken as "facts" by the person using such structures of language. The former sees it as a "factual" world of magical things, and such. The latter, as symbolic of a greater, and much higher realization of reality.

I'll address your other posts, though I suspect I'll see the same sorts of category errors, technically known as a "pre/trans fallacy", which makes actual communication more difficult, having to address that error and attempt to correct it. You asked why it sounds "complex"? This is why. Correcting perceptual errors.

Once you can differentiate the things, rather than seeing it all as one big "lump", then it does become quite easy to pull apart the threads that appeared to be all tangled together. That's kind of has been my hope in this discussion, rather than having to try to say "this is not New Age", because of running into that fallacy.

BTW, there is nothing New Age in what I am talking about.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Forgive my saying so, but that you equate all of metaphysical thoughts as "new age", does not sound very informed. It appears to you as not "hard science" enough and therefore worthless, like the magic fairies of new age. By contrast, I am able to make very clear and hard distinctions between these. One is the imaginations of children, and the other are descriptions of actual experience which are not taken as "facts" by the person using such structures of language. The former sees it as a "factual" world of magical things, and such. The latter, as symbolic of a greater, and much higher realization of reality.

I'll address your other posts, though I suspect I'll see the same sorts of category errors, technically known as a "pre/trans fallacy", which makes actual communication more difficult, having to address that error and attempt to correct it. You asked why it sounds "complex"? This is why. Correcting perceptual errors.

Once you can differentiate the things, rather than seeing it all as one big "lump", then it does become quite easy to pull apart the threads that appeared to be all tangled together. That's kind of has been my hope in this discussion, rather than having to try to say "this is not New Age", because of running into that fallacy.

BTW, there is nothing New Age in what I am talking about.

I consider new age more of a mix of mystics, from alternative medicine practices of today and just general syncretic practices. I see it a lot in neopaganism and things like that. I'm not a scientist so I'm just going off my own observations. Not false just Im not a semantics person. As long as you get my point, Im good.

The rest of your post I have to get back. Just came from work. But I'm not a modern religious person. There is nothing inheritedly wrong with it, it's just not my thing.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I consider new age more of a mix of mystics, from alternative medicine practices of today and just general syncretic practices. I see it a lot in neopaganism and things like that. I'm not a scientist so I'm just going off my own observations. Not false just Im not a semantics person. As long as you get my point, Im good.

The rest of your post I have to get back. Just came from work. But I'm not a modern religious person. There is nothing inheritedly wrong with it, it's just not my thing.
Sure. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from. Since you mentioned religion just now, let's add that I make a distinction between religion and spirituality. I'm not into any formal religious structure myself, as my exposure to that was a hindrance to spirituality.

It required God or Spirit, to fit into a theological box, and be viewed as external to oneself. God within, doesn't exactly fit most interpretations of "religion" which is really just a dumbed down, externalized interpretation of actual spiritual truths. They're in there, the spiritual truths, but buried underneath the tramplings of priests and preachers. If you can manage to tease them loose, then religion can be spiritually beneficial. Normally, it's more about social power and control, not God.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
With old notes and online. I have not read a distinct answer to this repeated question. Normally it's in the middle of other topics.

How is jesus a sacrifice when he does not die?

A sacrifice is when you give something up of value for another person's wellbeing. Jesus said he sacrificed himself for your wellbeing. But what exactly did he loose in order to relate to you so that you are saved?

Edit. Actually, below are better questions: what's the definition of sacrifice and is there a higher one than giving up ones life.

Is there another definition of the Highest sacrifice that is beyond giving up ones life? (Probably a better question )

What' the definition of Christian sacrifice to where jesus can give himself up without dying?

That is similar to asking whether a human who sacrifices for others -who will eventually be resurrected -has truly sacrificed anything.
As all things will be made new -and all tears wiped away -nothing is lost forever -but temporary sacrifice is still sacrifice. Those who sacrifice for others do suffer loss -even if it will be made equal later.

You seem to be asking why Christ did not suffer some eternal loss -but the whole point of his sacrifice was to allow us to live eternally -effectively having suffered no loss of any kind.

That is to say -all negative experience and loss will eventually be nullified -and that was made possible by temporary negative experience and loss.

The sacrifice was in the fact that he did so freely -did so selflessly -and it was extremely unpleasant. His sacrifice allowed OUR unpleasant experience to be temporary -as it was a necessary part of our perfection -which is necessary for eternal life without misery.

God's intent is to make the children of God -Christ being "the firstborn of many brethren" -as stated in the bible -and then allow them access to the entire creation (which is to be "liberated from the bondage to decay" by them) and give them extremely powerful bodies.

Before he does that, he must make us perfect -so that the misery and destruction on earth does not continue. That is why the sinning angels were restrained -and why we are presently bound to the earth by our human form.

His experience on earth showed his worthiness (Worthy is the lamb that was slain) -he became qualified by experience -to receive the government of the future upon his shoulder -being tempted and slain without having turned -and living and dying as a man made him a more effective intercessor for us.

Assuring his place in the eternal government -and preparing him for it -was necessary for our places in that eternal government.

It was necessary for him to give of himself in order for us to gain what we could not gain ourselves.

Fortunately all things WILL be new -NO sacrifice or unpleasantness need be permanent because of that which was sacrificed temporarily -and, as stated "the former things will not be remembered or called to mind"
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Metaphysics issues aside
in the beginning with God," through which all creation comes into being, this same Logos "became flesh and dwelt among us".

Does understanding it philosophical help you experience the logos better?

I know there is a history around many words but when you get the gist and experience it, many spiritual experience mirror each other in all humans (no one is blind). While each person relates to it differently (making it simple to make a point), we are not alIiens to each other.
So to really understand what Logos means, you have to understand philosophically, or metaphysically how it was being used and how it would have been understood. What I say of it being the "Manifestor" of God is fully in keeping with the above.

Understanding works for some and a hindrance to others. I see your point


With God', in John's prologue suggests an inseparable bond, a "face to face" intimate direction in his use of the world for "with". That means, I'd say at a deeper level,

Christ is in God and God is in Christ simply means they are inseparable realities of the divine Reality, not two beings.

One way to see it. I'm seeing it external to internal because I don't see christ different.

No, not like that really. Taking a step back to describe this another way. God is the Reality that is all of us. God is who and what we are, inasmuch as we a creation of God, and creation is not separate from the Divine.

For if it could be, then the Divine is not Absolute at all, but limited. Something exists outside it, and it outside something else. That makes God an "it" or an "entity" or some other such human projection of a dualistic nature. If there is any place there is not God, then God is not infinite at all, and therefore no God exists at all. God is not a block of swiss cheese.

The first part is direct. I get what you mean.

So God is all of us, but not all of us see that or realize that about ourselves because we are lost inside the worlds of our own minds. We don't see what really is there, because reality of us consists of a house of mirrors insides of our heads we look at all day, out of the corners of our eyes to see how things fit into that world we created and lost ourselves within. Any true artist should understand this, hence the reason for art, to break free from the confines and restictions of our "thought" reality.

Why do you each and all of us are blinded to this?

To break free from this, often takes something to "wake" you up.

Many people do. But it's seen as, how do I say, complicated to depreciate the directness of the experience. Just depends on how abstract and complicated you guys make it.
Whole tantric traditions are about finding the Divine through the flesh, or the material world. I could easily fit into that.

Tantric is a better word than mystic. From little I know of practicing tibetan practices.

QUOTE="Windwalker, post: 5867163, member: 41917"]Well, it sure as shooting ain't formulaic like that! :) LOL. That's the thing with so many Christians with their formulaic approach to God,[/QUOTE]

I dont see how religion needs to be made abstract. I love religion and I do believe without political and experiential bias, we can see beauty in it Not seperated from spirituality and tantric experiences. But none are wrong. Just depends on how one wants to experience spirituality.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
That is similar to asking whether a human who sacrifices for others -who will eventually be resurrected -has truly sacrificed anything.
As all things will be made new -and all tears wiped away -nothing is lost forever -but temporary sacrifice is still sacrifice. Those who sacrifice for others do suffer loss -even if it will be made equal later.

You seem to be asking why Christ did not suffer some eternal loss -but the whole point of his sacrifice was to allow us to live eternally -effectively having suffered no loss of any kind.

That is to say -all negative experience and loss will eventually be nullified -and that was made possible by temporary negative experience and loss.

The sacrifice was in the fact that he did so freely -did so selflessly -and it was extremely unpleasant. His sacrifice allowed OUR unpleasant experience to be temporary -as it was a necessary part of our perfection -which is necessary for eternal life without misery.

God's intent is to make the children of God -Christ being "the firstborn of many brethren" -as stated in the bible -and then allow them access to the entire creation (which is to be "liberated from the bondage to decay" by them) and give them extremely powerful bodies.

Before he does that, he must make us perfect -so that the misery and destruction on earth does not continue. That is why the sinning angels were restrained -and why we are presently bound to the earth by our human form.

His experience on earth showed his worthiness (Worthy is the lamb that was slain) -he became qualified by experience -to receive the government of the future upon his shoulder -being tempted and slain without having turned -and living and dying as a man made him a more effective intercessor for us.

Assuring his place in the eternal government -and preparing him for it -was necessary for our places in that eternal government.

It was necessary for him to give of himself in order for us to gain what we could not gain ourselves.

Fortunately all things WILL be new -NO sacrifice or unpleasantness need be permanent because of that which was sacrificed temporarily -and, as stated "the former things will not be remembered or called to mind"

Hmm. It sounds like how I saw my Eucharistic experience at The Church. Sacrifice through suffering not christ death. I've never had personal and internal experiences of jesus saving me nor heavy ones of his love. But through his experience became mine. I left because I felt uncomfortable using him as a "human" sacrifice. That sounds, um, off no matter how its explained.

Other posters mentioned some similar. Sacrifice is suffering not his death. Is that were you agree?
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Once we've died our sins are forgiven, then we can be resurrected to everlasting life.
But you're still dead, though. We don't rescind your death certificate.

What do you think of the concept of eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, soul (life) for soul.
One soul for infinite souls?

Adam was perfect, without sin, and then he sinned.
Titanic was an unsinkable boat. And then it sank.

So the equal sacrifice would be of a sinless perfect man's blood.
He broke actual commandments, though, and did other bad things that weren't considered sins then but does now, like racism.

Jesus did die.
Still waiting for someone to get me a coroner's report.

That he had no sin is what made his blood worthy of the sacrifice.
He broke actual commandments, though, and did other bad things that weren't considered sins then but does now, like racism.

He said He could have called on many angels to rescue Him from the Romans but did not do it.
That's more likely because nobody would show up. Even his most loyal followers had run off.

Because it's important to understand that everyone else is only resurrected through Jesus.
Doesn't explain OT people being brought back.

he died. It hurt. A lot. there are, indeed, other, more painful deaths, but crucifixion is supposed to be right up there, and combined with the torture He experienced before hand....well....
I'm sure the Romans thought so. I wonder how they would feel knowing there are people who do it for fun every Easter.

Not to mention that Jesus COULD have, according to the narrative, avoided the whole thing.
He could've avoided it by heeding his own commands to keep things hushed, but his ego just wouldn't let him stop making large public appearances.

Jesus said God would only reward us in heaven for those things we did in secret. Jesus did his stuff publicly usually, so he gets NOTHING.

Willy-Wonka-You-Get-Nothing-560x420.jpg


He willingly allowed himself to be tortured and put to death, and that is a sacrifice.
His will was irrelevant. Roman will was all that really mattered at that point.

Christs entire life was a sacrifice, not just his death.
Agreed. He supposedly, without evidence of course, was in heaven prior to birth and returned to it after death. Thus, his life was technically a sacrifice, not his death, which only restored him to his place.

Yet many people would choose suicide over torture. In fact it's not uncommon. People committing suicide to avoid suffering.
He was getting angrier and angrier being around a bunch of faithless idiots who didn't understand him. His own family didn't like him. He bragged about wanting out, about dying. It was suicide by cop.

Because God said to them "you will surely die"
IN THAT DAY, and God lied.

So we don't have to die.
Explain the gravestones of Christians.

Every time someone repents of their sins; then God remembers the blood of Jesus and so forgives them because their sin is paid for.
So, everyone asks God for forgiveness day in and day out for a couple thousand years, but God still has to go "Oh, yeah, right, Junior paid for it"? Has He not learned to memorize it by now?

I canceled my ADT at my previous house 'cause no one lives there and I need it bought so I don't have to fool with it anymore. I still kept getting bills after it was canceled.

Christianity is the same thing for me: keeps billing me after the services are done.

Abel's blood cried out from the ground to God for vengeance against Cain(his killer).
Abel is proof that if you obey God and are supposedly pious, you're gonna die anyway.

Hundreds of messiahs? Okay name one who died for our sins other than Jesus.
It only meant someone anointed. Lots of messiahs in the bible, even non-Jewish ones, like Cyrus of Persia. It only means God picked you for some story mission. That's it.

Cleopatra also laid her life down for Egypt.
She lay down SOMETHING for Egypt, all right. :p

He is not the only way.
Yes. The Way is the Way. The Tour Guide is irrelevant. You're either on the road or you're not.

It was never "for our sins". That's only Jesus.
And it's a lie, because I still have to repent of my sins. Even Jesus notes throughout his ministry we will get our just desserts. We reap what we sow, right?

So, can you prove your claim that other would be messiah's died for people's sins? Or did they just die fighting the Romans or whatever?
What evidence is there that Jesus' death affected your sins? He died because the Romans killed him. The end.

Can you name another?
I feel the dharmic religions, while not perfect either, do a much better job at getting the job done than Jesus ever did.

Which God of the Jews demands blood sacrifices. You know this right?
But why? What does killing a goat or a dove of a cow or a human do for ANYONE other than make a nice BBQ?

Ten bucks says hungry priests who weren't allowed by Mosaic law to work for a living demanded sacrifices, not God. God doesn't need to eat, right?

Not so with jesus. So, you cant be saved by his death since the time differences are off. Even more so, if you were back then, you can watch christ die and wash your face wit his blood, but in what way has he saved you?
He even said he came here for Jews. I'm not Jewish. I'd be the first he'd call a dog, like he did that other gentile woman.

He, Jesus, is called the Word of God because he was God's spokesperson.
Lots of people claimed that in the bible.

Another analogy is sliding down a fairly steep cliff trying to grasp at passing shrubs to stop one's fall.
In my dreams, I can think outside the box. Falling to my doom? The ground below me becomes a picture, like those 3D chalk drawings people do on roads and stuff. What was an endless fall becomes a fall of a few feet, max, because the fall is transformed into an illusion.

3d-street-art.jpg


What do you feel a sacrifice is?
What causes us to sin should be cut off and thrown away. Christianity taught me to sin, so I cut it off and threw it away.

I honor God by doing what He said to do. :)

You can internally transfer your guilt literally and personally on any person.
I know narcissists do that, but why would any moral person do such a thing?

Christ received what we deserve so we can receive what he deserved.
He said people who call other people fools will burn in hell. He called people fools. Out of his own judgement he deserves hell.

t is a fact. there were numerous witnesses
There were no witnesses. The disciples had run off so they weren't there to see him die and prove he was dead. Jesus was alone in a tomb and the soldiers supposedly fell asleep. No witnesses to any resurrection. The resurrected Jesus was mistaken for other people by the people who hung out with him daily for a year or so. His wounds upon resurrection don't match what all supposedly happened to him. He only has a few easily reproduced puncture wounds when he SHOULD look like ground meat.

I think the sacrifice of the Son (Jesus) was tremendous, beyond even our human ability to comprehend.
People say that to distract from the story's reality, that the Romans lumped him with a bunch of religious terrorists treasonous to the emperor and killed him.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
People say that to distract from the story's reality, that the Romans lumped him with a bunch of religious terrorists treasonous to the emperor and killed him.

No distraction at all, the account states that Pilate found Jesus to be innocent of such charges and tried to persuade the religious leaders and mob to release Him, knowing they brought Jesus to him for trial and judgment because of envy. (Matthew 27). Instead of releasing Jesus, who was innocent, they chose to release Barabbas, a true terrorist and murderer.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
But you're still dead, though. We don't rescind your death certificate.


One soul for infinite souls?


Titanic was an unsinkable boat. And then it sank.


He broke actual commandments, though, and did other bad things that weren't considered sins then but does now, like racism.


Still waiting for someone to get me a coroner's report.


He broke actual commandments, though, and did other bad things that weren't considered sins then but does now, like racism.


That's more likely because nobody would show up. Even his most loyal followers had run off.


Doesn't explain OT people being brought back.


I'm sure the Romans thought so. I wonder how they would feel knowing there are people who do it for fun every Easter.


He could've avoided it by heeding his own commands to keep things hushed, but his ego just wouldn't let him stop making large public appearances.

Jesus said God would only reward us in heaven for those things we did in secret. Jesus did his stuff publicly usually, so he gets NOTHING.

Willy-Wonka-You-Get-Nothing-560x420.jpg



His will was irrelevant. Roman will was all that really mattered at that point.


Agreed. He supposedly, without evidence of course, was in heaven prior to birth and returned to it after death. Thus, his life was technically a sacrifice, not his death, which only restored him to his place.


He was getting angrier and angrier being around a bunch of faithless idiots who didn't understand him. His own family didn't like him. He bragged about wanting out, about dying. It was suicide by cop.


IN THAT DAY, and God lied.


Explain the gravestones of Christians.


So, everyone asks God for forgiveness day in and day out for a couple thousand years, but God still has to go "Oh, yeah, right, Junior paid for it"? Has He not learned to memorize it by now?

I canceled my ADT at my previous house 'cause no one lives there and I need it bought so I don't have to fool with it anymore. I still kept getting bills after it was canceled.

Christianity is the same thing for me: keeps billing me after the services are done.


Abel is proof that if you obey God and are supposedly pious, you're gonna die anyway.


It only meant someone anointed. Lots of messiahs in the bible, even non-Jewish ones, like Cyrus of Persia. It only means God picked you for some story mission. That's it.


She lay down SOMETHING for Egypt, all right. :p


Yes. The Way is the Way. The Tour Guide is irrelevant. You're either on the road or you're not.


And it's a lie, because I still have to repent of my sins. Even Jesus notes throughout his ministry we will get our just desserts. We reap what we sow, right?


What evidence is there that Jesus' death affected your sins? He died because the Romans killed him. The end.


I feel the dharmic religions, while not perfect either, do a much better job at getting the job done than Jesus ever did.


But why? What does killing a goat or a dove of a cow or a human do for ANYONE other than make a nice BBQ?

Ten bucks says hungry priests who weren't allowed by Mosaic law to work for a living demanded sacrifices, not God. God doesn't need to eat, right?


He even said he came here for Jews. I'm not Jewish. I'd be the first he'd call a dog, like he did that other gentile woman.


Lots of people claimed that in the bible.


In my dreams, I can think outside the box. Falling to my doom? The ground below me becomes a picture, like those 3D chalk drawings people do on roads and stuff. What was an endless fall becomes a fall of a few feet, max, because the fall is transformed into an illusion.

3d-street-art.jpg



What causes us to sin should be cut off and thrown away. Christianity taught me to sin, so I cut it off and threw it away.

I honor God by doing what He said to do. :)


I know narcissists do that, but why would any moral person do such a thing?


He said people who call other people fools will burn in hell. He called people fools. Out of his own judgement he deserves hell.


There were no witnesses. The disciples had run off so they weren't there to see him die and prove he was dead. Jesus was alone in a tomb and the soldiers supposedly fell asleep. No witnesses to any resurrection. The resurrected Jesus was mistaken for other people by the people who hung out with him daily for a year or so. His wounds upon resurrection don't match what all supposedly happened to him. He only has a few easily reproduced puncture wounds when he SHOULD look like ground meat.


People say that to distract from the story's reality, that the Romans lumped him with a bunch of religious terrorists treasonous to the emperor and killed him.
There were hundreds of witnesses to his being resurrected, since he walked among them and was seen. Ground meat ? Punctured hands and a stab wound in the side plus 3 days equals ground meat ? Not hardly. He was crucified to placate the Jews, to the Romans he was a religious crank. They wanted to keep the Jews pacified and if killing an innocent would do the trick, so be it.
 

Earthling

David Henson
But you're still dead, though. We don't rescind your death certificate.

Okay. This is long, but I'll try to respond until I fall asleep or the left side of my body starts to go numb and / or I stroke.

You aren't dead after resurrection.

One soul for infinite souls?

No, one soul (Jesus) for another (Adam).

Titanic was an unsinkable boat. And then it sank.

Adam wasn't the Titanic.

He broke actual commandments, though, and did other bad things that weren't considered sins then but does now, like racism.

Examples, please?

Still waiting for someone to get me a coroner's report.

Well, you keep on waiting, you'll get what you need.

That's more likely because nobody would show up. Even his most loyal followers had run off.

I'm bored. You're just being a smart ***.
 
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