• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

A complex case against intelligent design

ecco

Veteran Member
Well I think you are getting to the crux of the matter. One of the reasons I have reservations about internet forums is that decent people all too easily slip into insulting each other with no regard for the other guy's feelings. As you pointed out, I'm no exception. I should have been more decent to you in my replies. I'm sure you are a fine individual, as are the majority of folks on this forum.

I respect your views. If I had walked in your shoes I'd think exactly like you. But I walked in my shoes and therefore think the way anybody would think who had walked in my shoes. I guess I'm just saying in a round about way that we are all different. That doesn't mean I have to treat you or anybody else with a lack of respect. I apologize for any offense I may have caused you. Let's just leave it at that for now.
So you went from cutesy one-liners to condescension.

I guess one way of avoiding is as good as any other.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Oh, I could not possibly care-- except that I had taken the time to write a lengthy post that addressed each of your points, and you stopped at one word, carefully ignoring 100% of the substantive content.

And then had the stones to call me "childish"... ! When in truth, any adult who still believes in invisible friends, is kinda stuck in a childish fantasy.

Being an atheist in a theist-dominated society, is like being the only kid in class who knows there is no Santa Claus, but having to wait for everyone else to grow the fork up already.
Again, I was with you as I was on your first reply, until you felt the need to accuse me of being stuck in a childless fantasy. If you can't see that as both unnecessary and unproductive in an adult conversation, I repeat my assertion that you act as a child.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I'm interested to know where it says this in the bible?

I have searched for "free will" in the bible but couldn't find anything that didn't require a great deal of creative interpretation.
I think you are pretty wise to use the scriptures as your sole source of truth. As you probably know, they claim to be just that, the truth.

John 8:31-32,

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.​

In answer to your question I offer the following:

Deut 30:19,

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:​

Josh 24:15,

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
John 7:17,

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
I trust you would agree that creative interpretation is not needed in any of these verses to see that God gave man a choice in things, i.e free will. God never makes anybody choose anything.

1Tim 2:4,

Who (from context, God) will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Again, creative interpretation is not required to see what this verse says. It's no more complicated than, "John went to the store." God would like everybody to know Him, but obviously not everybody does. People like yourself, who seek answers from the scriptures, are really few. Many more choose not to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. If God made them get saved and understand the truth, everybody would, but He leaves it up to each individual to make a choice, i.e. free will.

Hope that helps you in your scriptural research. Take care.

 
Last edited:

rrobs

Well-Known Member
So you went from cutesy one-liners to condescension.

I guess one way of avoiding is as good as any other.
Condescension? Not at all. I was quite serious. I guess you just can't please everybody. In any case, my sentiment still holds. Do with it what you choose.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Again, I was with you as I was on your first reply, until you felt the need to accuse me of being stuck in a childless fantasy. If you can't see that as both unnecessary and unproductive in an adult conversation, I repeat my assertion that you act as a child.

"childless fantasy"? So you are without children? Or you wish you were? Or you wish there were no children?

I'm confused as to what you mean-- but, clearly, your comments are rather childish in scope, which is ironic, as you continue to act like a child, but complain when called out on it.

You never did address my lengthy points that rebutted your earlier ones with respect to your silly claim that science claimed the world was flat... remember that one?

Or the even sillier one about atoms.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I think you are pretty wise to use the scriptures as your sole source of truth.

Really. Even when the bible says this? Genesis 11:1-9 -- in which the bible describes a building which apparently was in danger of reaching heaven, by the simple expedient of being.... tall.

Yet, today we have satellites which are thousands of times "taller", and god apparently has no problem with them?

Or this: Isaiah 11:12. In it we learn the bible describes the earth as a flat square, not unlike a bathroom tile... Revelation 7:1 also speaks of a flat earth, with 4 corners.

Here, we have Job 38:13 which speaks of the literal ends of the earth-- impossible on a sphere. Quite possible on a flat plate, especially one with 4 corners... also Jeremiah 16:19 speaks similarly. And this Daniel 4:11 does too.

Here, in Matthew 4:8, it speaks of Jesus seeing all the kingdoms of the earth from a high place-- impossible on a sphere. Quite possible on a flat plate, round or square.

But wait! It's worse! The earth does not move, according to Psalm 104:5 and Ecclesiastes 1:5. It's apparently fixed firmly onto ... something (does not say, apart from the 4 pillars as above).

But wait... Isaiah 40:22 describes a circle! (In direct contradiction to the above, but neverrmind).

Does it mean a ball (sphere) or does it mean a plate? Which? In Hebrew, there is a lovely word for ball, and a different word for round, flat disc. Which word do you think was used in 40:22? Hint-- it ain't the one for ball. Look for yourself-- use Hebrew-to-English. Then look up a Hebrew version of Isaiah 40:22.... not a sphere.

So really. The bible is .... about ... ahem... "truth" now?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I think you are pretty wise to use the scriptures as your sole source of truth.

Next, let's look at how slaves were handled in the bible.

Now, in modern morality, Do Not Own People is high on the list of Do Not's, if not #1. Alas, no where in the bible is a prohibition from owning persons as slaves. Quite the opposite!

In Exodus 21:7-11, it differentiates women as slaves from men as slaves. Women? Never get set free, unless the owner is feeling particularly magnanimous. In short? The bible is just fine with women being owned as property, never to be set free.

Now, in Exodus 21:2-6 male slaves-- if they are Hebrew-- are to be freed after 6 years of unpaid labor. There are conditions, however, whereby the male is not freed according to schedule. And if he had happened to be married while he was a slave? His wife(s) is(are) not freed automatically. Too bad for him!

Now, to be fair, Deuteronomy 15:12-18 seems to contradict some of the above, in that if the Hebrew (descent) slave(s) became a slave voluntarily? Then they get freedom after 6 years of unpaid service-- but any offspring remain slaves. Oh well.

But what if you were not a Hebrew National, and became a slave? Well, there is no Freedom for YOU-- you remain a slave for life. Leviticus 25:44-46.

Now, you may think I made up the bit about children of slaves have to remain slaves, but I did not: Exodus 21:4d.

But wait! There's more: Not only do slaves never get paid (which destroys the myth that they were somehow ... "servants" or some such-- they were not), they can be killed at a whim. Well-- almost.

So long as a slave lives a few days after being beat with a stick (rod), then it's just okay with the bible: Exodus 21:20-21.

BUT THAT IS THE OT, some will exclaim. Well, the NT has it's share too:

Ephesians 6:5-8 -- slaves were forbidden to try to get free, but remain docile little property. Because god made them that way. How dare they try to usurp god, by wanting freedom?

This 1 Timothy 6:1-2 pretty much says the same thing-- slaves are to be good little property.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Really. Even when the bible says this? Genesis 11:1-9 -- in which the bible describes a building which apparently was in danger of reaching heaven, by the simple expedient of being.... tall.

Yet, today we have satellites which are thousands of times "taller", and god apparently has no problem with them?

Or this: Isaiah 11:12. In it we learn the bible describes the earth as a flat square, not unlike a bathroom tile... Revelation 7:1 also speaks of a flat earth, with 4 corners.

Here, we have Job 38:13 which speaks of the literal ends of the earth-- impossible on a sphere. Quite possible on a flat plate, especially one with 4 corners... also Jeremiah 16:19 speaks similarly. And this Daniel 4:11 does too.

Here, in Matthew 4:8, it speaks of Jesus seeing all the kingdoms of the earth from a high place-- impossible on a sphere. Quite possible on a flat plate, round or square.

But wait! It's worse! The earth does not move, according to Psalm 104:5 and Ecclesiastes 1:5. It's apparently fixed firmly onto ... something (does not say, apart from the 4 pillars as above).

But wait... Isaiah 40:22 describes a circle! (In direct contradiction to the above, but neverrmind).

Does it mean a ball (sphere) or does it mean a plate? Which? In Hebrew, there is a lovely word for ball, and a different word for round, flat disc. Which word do you think was used in 40:22? Hint-- it ain't the one for ball. Look for yourself-- use Hebrew-to-English. Then look up a Hebrew version of Isaiah 40:22.... not a sphere.

So really. The bible is .... about ... ahem... "truth" now?
What am I supposed to to say? We've already been through this. You don't believe the Bible is true. I do. I used to think just like you, now I don't. I don't know what more to say about it.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Next, let's look at how slaves were handled in the bible.

Now, in modern morality, Do Not Own People is high on the list of Do Not's, if not #1. Alas, no where in the bible is a prohibition from owning persons as slaves. Quite the opposite!

In Exodus 21:7-11, it differentiates women as slaves from men as slaves. Women? Never get set free, unless the owner is feeling particularly magnanimous. In short? The bible is just fine with women being owned as property, never to be set free.

Now, in Exodus 21:2-6 male slaves-- if they are Hebrew-- are to be freed after 6 years of unpaid labor. There are conditions, however, whereby the male is not freed according to schedule. And if he had happened to be married while he was a slave? His wife(s) is(are) not freed automatically. Too bad for him!

Now, to be fair, Deuteronomy 15:12-18 seems to contradict some of the above, in that if the Hebrew (descent) slave(s) became a slave voluntarily? Then they get freedom after 6 years of unpaid service-- but any offspring remain slaves. Oh well.

But what if you were not a Hebrew National, and became a slave? Well, there is no Freedom for YOU-- you remain a slave for life. Leviticus 25:44-46.

Now, you may think I made up the bit about children of slaves have to remain slaves, but I did not: Exodus 21:4d.

But wait! There's more: Not only do slaves never get paid (which destroys the myth that they were somehow ... "servants" or some such-- they were not), they can be killed at a whim. Well-- almost.

So long as a slave lives a few days after being beat with a stick (rod), then it's just okay with the bible: Exodus 21:20-21.

BUT THAT IS THE OT, some will exclaim. Well, the NT has it's share too:

Ephesians 6:5-8 -- slaves were forbidden to try to get free, but remain docile little property. Because god made them that way. How dare they try to usurp god, by wanting freedom?

This 1 Timothy 6:1-2 pretty much says the same thing-- slaves are to be good little property.
It seems like you would like me to acquiesce to your knowledge of the scriptures. While I appreciate the time and energy you put into your reply, I'm not interested. I don't want to encourage any further efforts on your part. You're just spitting into the wind if you're trying to convince me that the scriptures are not the truth. I've been there and done that a long time ago.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
"childless fantasy"? So you are without children? Or you wish you were? Or you wish there were no children?

I'm confused as to what you mean-- but, clearly, your comments are rather childish in scope, which is ironic, as you continue to act like a child, but complain when called out on it.

You never did address my lengthy points that rebutted your earlier ones with respect to your silly claim that science claimed the world was flat... remember that one?

Or the even sillier one about atoms.
I told you twice before that I would have replied to your replies had you not brought unwarranted comments into the conversation. I forget what they were, but I told you about them as they came up. Wait, I remember one now, "holey" Bible. Sorry guy, but that really does seem rather childish to me. Instead of answering your questions (which I don't really think you wanted a sincere answer anyway, just looking for more "ammo" to criticize), I called you out on your less than respectful reply to the work I put into trying to answer your questions the best I could. I don't expect you to believe the things I wrote, but I don't expect sharp little digs either. I don't even know why I'm explaining myself to you, but there it is.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
I think you are pretty wise to use the scriptures as your sole source of truth.

I'm not sure what gave you that impression. I use many sources for truth and the only truth I was searching for in that post was where to find free will mentioned in the Bible.

As you probably know, they claim to be just that, the truth.

By "they" I'm assuming you mean the books of the Bible?

In answer to your question I offer the following:

Deut 30:19,

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:​

Reading all of Deuteronomy 30 it appears to me God is saying do what I want and you will be rewarded, don't and you will be punished. I wouldn't call that free will. Sure he gives a choice but it's not free.

Josh 24:15,

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.​

Once again reading all of Joshua 24 it appears to be a summary of what God has done for the tribes of Israel. I don't see free will even being hinted at in there.

John 7:17,

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.​

John 7 is a somewhat complicated story but I don't see free will being mentioned in any of it.

I trust you would agree that creative interpretation is not needed in any of these verses to see that God gave man a choice in things, i.e free will. God never makes anybody choose anything.

I disagree. I think we have a different understanding of what free will is. What I see as threats you see as free will

1Tim 2:4,

Who (from context, God) will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Again, creative interpretation is not required to see what this verse says. It's no more complicated than, "John went to the store.

I agree it's not complicated but it isn't about free will in my opinion.

" God would like everybody to know Him, but obviously not everybody does. People like yourself, who seek answers from the scriptures, are really few. Many more choose not to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. If God made them get saved and understand the truth, everybody would, but He leaves it up to each individual to make a choice, i.e. free will.

A choice between something good or something bad happening to you is not free will. If God truly wanted everybody to know him then he would create a much clearer way to deliver the message that required no interpretation.

Hope that helps you in your scriptural research. Take care.
Thanks for your time.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
It seems like you would like me to acquiesce to your knowledge of the scriptures. While I appreciate the time and energy you put into your reply, I'm not interested. I don't want to encourage any further efforts on your part. You're just spitting into the wind if you're trying to convince me that the scriptures are not the truth. I've been there and done that a long time ago.

So you agree the bible supports slavery? And you therefore think Abraham Lincoln was wrong to want to eliminate slavery?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I told you twice before that I would have replied to your replies had you not brought unwarranted comments into the conversation. I forget what they were, but I told you about them as they came up. Wait, I remember one now, "holey" Bible. Sorry guy, but that really does seem rather childish to me. Instead of answering your questions (which I don't really think you wanted a sincere answer anyway, just looking for more "ammo" to criticize), I called you out on your less than respectful reply to the work I put into trying to answer your questions the best I could. I don't expect you to believe the things I wrote, but I don't expect sharp little digs either. I don't even know why I'm explaining myself to you, but there it is.

Except that you didn't answer my questions. You did not even put in a mild attempt. You jumped to the Martyr Mode so common among folk who are forced to admit their bible-belief is not pretty or even rational.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
So you agree the bible supports slavery? And you therefore think Abraham Lincoln was wrong to want to eliminate slavery?
1) Slavery was not part of the original plan. It came after Adam chose to go his own way. So while there is slavery in the Bible, I wouldn't say it supports it.

2) In light of the first answer, No.

While we are way off the OP topic, do you believe the moon landings were real or fake?
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Except that you didn't answer my questions. You did not even put in a mild attempt. You jumped to the Martyr Mode so common among folk who are forced to admit their bible-belief is not pretty or even rational.
I think I explained why I didn't answer your questions. It's apparently not the answer you want. That's not my problem. No martyr here.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Does your wife sleep outside of your home when she gets her period?
I'm pretty sure you told me you've read the Bible at least once, if not twice. The truth that Christ ended the requirements to follow the law is a pretty fundamental tenet in the Bible. Hard to miss, really.

Rom 10:4,

For Christ [is] the end of the law (including period directives) for righteousness to every one that believeth.​
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Your "sentiment" is quite obvious from the amount of scripture you post. Evangelize, evangelize, evangelize.
Yes. It tells me to love my enemies, not that I'd call you a full blown enemy. After all, I hardly know you. But that is why I held out an olive branch trying to make peace. The offer still stands.

Do you think it better to continue hurling insults at those who disagree with you? It's not good for your psyche, Christian or not. It's a hormonal thing.
 
Top